1911 Metz oil capacity

[Swear57]

Does anyone know the oil capacity of a 1909 Metz kit car. Here is a picture of it next to the 18 Cadillac

 

Thanks Jim 

Edited February 4 by Swear57
wrong year (see edit history)

[Mark Shaw]

I suggest you check the sides of the crankcase to see if your car has an overflow valve to indicate oil level.

 

[nearchoclatetown]

Did you contact the AACA library to get a copy of the owner's manual?

[Swear57]

Mark no petcocks on the block. I will check with AACA library next week. thanks for the advice.

[truth]

if you look at the posts of my same type question there is a formula given . the post is 1918 fiat oil capacity in general forum. its one of the replies that helped me

 

[Thomas Pruett]

Contact Dianne Burkhart. She has restored 2 of these. scotchyoke@sbcglobal

[Thomas Pruett]

My 1910 Metz is almost restored, but it has a reservoir with a cork float to indicate the oil level plus an added oil pump. I thought the 1909 used an oiler on the dash. 

[Swear57]

Hi Thomas. I got ahold of Dianne  first part of the week and she is going to get me information after Christmas. In emailing her mine is a 1910 as it has the gas tank behind the seat and a oil pan. Do you have any extra gas caps? Also would you know how to take the rear hubs off? I see the little lever on the right front of the oil pan. How much oil dose it hold. I have a parts manual for a 4 cylinder that says some parts work back to 09 so I'm looking for some manuals. Thanks for any help.

 

 

 

Jim Swearingen

Pendleton OR

[Hubert_25-25]

Jim, 

    I have Tom's car at my house.  I have been working on it and I made a new top for it. 

I just put oil in it.  I should have measured the amount, but I did not.  There is a float in this oil pan.   On the right front of the oil pan, just below the mounting flange, there is a 1/16" piece of wire that sticks out two inches.  If this wire is pointing down, there is no oil.  If the wire is horizontal, the oil level is full.  The sump is in the neighborhood of 2 to 3 quarts. 

Sorry, no extra gas caps.  I could get dimensions on this one if you need it.  

 

Photos of the brakes.  There are bars inside the brake housing that keep all the notches aligned.  Once you remove the 5 bolts around the flange it should slide off.  Also, odd thing is the right side wheel castle nuts are left hand thread.   

 

Hugh 

 

Edited February 4 by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)

[Larry Schramm]

Those brakes look like the brakes on an old Schwinn bicycle.

[Swear57]

Hugh

Thanks for the information. When I bought the car, I was told it was a 09. It is actually a 11. I did get some information from Eugene that helped me with the brakes. This car went through a flood back in 2020. Thats why I went through the wheel bearings and brakes. Cleaned and oil the chains. When I got the car, my wheels were reverse from what yours are. Any advantage or disadvantage of running the wheels like that? On the gas cap I have never even seen one. All the pictures of cars I see I haven't seen a good picture of the gas cap. Anything would help. What are they made of? Tom has a beautiful car. Thanks again.

 

Jim S

[Hubert_25-25]

Mark, 

       When I first saw the brakes, I thought the same thing. 

 

Jim,

   The wheels have an offset hub so that if you pull the pin, and install the wheel in the other direction, it changes the track (tire to tire width) of the vehicle.  I understand that the reversible wheels was to compensate for the buggy ruts of a buyer's local area or when traveling to another area.  

 

I will get a close up of the cap and dimensions when the gas tank comes back.  This tank looked new.  It looked like it was never used, but it had a hole in the bottom so it is going to a radiator shop for a repair. 

 

Do you have any photos and information on the carburetor? 

Hugh 

 

 

[Swear57]

Hugh

 

The green tank is like mine. If I could see that cap out in the open. I don't think that's your car. I know nothing about these carbs. It a Schebler model H it has a 1" bore. I have been trying to get it to idle better.

 

Jim S

[Hubert_25-25]

Jim, 

 Take a photo of your gas tank at the threads.  You need a digital micrometer and a thread gauge and I can help you with the gas cap. 

 

Thanks for the photos and notes on the carburetor.  There is a Zenith on this car.  It is a very old carburetor.  It has a pot metal venturi and it is begining to fail.  There is blue around Toms carburetor.  Was also told that this carburetor was for a 4 cylinder car.

 

The other photo is a Metz Carb photo that I received from Tom.  Looks like yours but in brass.  

 

Worked on the car all day.  It starts when cold and has throttle response.  Once it warms up all of the throttle response goes away.  Then the engine can only idle eventually and it will die.  It does not want to restart when warm.  We do have to work on the fact that #2 cylinder valve clearance gap is .070 on both intake and exhaust.  Do you know what the valve clearance spec is?  

 

Hugh

 

 

[Hubert_25-25]

Jim, 

    I have these original instructions on the Metz.    Hugh

 

 

        THE USE OF THE METZ PLAN CAR.

DIRECTIONS FOR DRIVING AND RUNNING THE CAR

     Although we are aware that a great number of our purchasers already understand the mechanism and operation of an automobile, still we feel that even they should study the following points as to driving the Metz Plan Car, as we wish the users of our automobile to get the VERY BEST results in operating.

                                “FESTINA LENTE”

     This translated into English means “make haste slowly” and it embodies our advice to the constructor of a Metz Plan Car. Therefore, in the first place, before running the engine be careful to ascertain that the lubrication is working and that the gasoline feed is perfect. In the second place, go over every nut and bolt and be sure that no detail has been missed. Many motorists make the error of only giving consideration to the engine, leaving such important details as adjustment of transmission and wheels until these get troublesome through neglect. We feel constrained to give this warning, and a few moments spent in heeding it will be TIME WELL SPENT as it will materially prolong the life of the car.

                         TO START THE ENGINE

     First of all, fill tanks. In filling the gasoline tank it is always advisable to use a funnel fitted with a strainer, as this prevents any water or dirt reaching the carburetor through the feed pipe. In 1909 models, remove motor base cover and pour in 1 ½ pints of best air cooled lubricating oil, then fill the lubricator with the same. The sight feed drips should be so regulated as to maintain this amount of oil constant. The best oil is always cheapest in this case for the difference in running will be distinctly better and the cost will only be a few cents more for 500 miles of driving.

First see that the clutch pedal is withdrawn and that, thus, the friction discs are not in contact. Switch off magneto and open throttle lever. Notch the starting crank with handle DOWN, so that you will pull UPWARDS TO START THE ENGINE. One Or two brisk upward pulls, and the engine will readily start. Throttle the engine down after cranking so that it runs slowly, do not allow it to race.

     Prior to sending the carburetor from the factory we adjust it so as to meet average conditions and we send it with a booklet dealing with its adjustments. Sometimes the climate etc. in different localities may necessitate a  slight readjustment of needle valve and air intake. It is easy to decide this by experimenting when the engine is running but, generally speaking, our adjustment will meet most conditions and the engine will start up quickly and fire regularly.

                                  ON THE ROAD

     Having seated yourself in the car release the foot- brakes, if they happen to be applied, place the driving lever in the third notch from forward. Accelerate the engine by opening the throttle and engage the clutch pedal gradually. When the car has travelled a few yards and the engine has picked up speed, release the clutch quickly, move the speed lever forward and again engage the clutch. In changing to a higher speed it will be found necessary on most occasions to accelerate the engine by opening the throttle. Always “let in the clutch”, that is, bring the friction disks together GENTLY as this imposes less strain upon the tires and other parts of the car.

     Always run the engine as slowly as possible for the work it has to do, that is to say, use the higher gear for the load and gradient without straining the engine. If you “race” the engine when it is running light you put unnecessary strain on the moving parts and are much more liable to do damage than when the engine is running fast under a load. Never let the engine run fast on a low gear when you can get the same speed out of the car, and a lower engine speed, by changing to a higher gear. Foe example:-If the car is running on the level, on, say third speed, and the engine begins to race, change at once to top speed, you will then get along as fast with the engine speed much less, quieter, and with a resultant saving of wear and tear of engine, bearings, and transmission, and also a reduction in the amount of gasoline and lubricating oil consumed.

     On the other hand, if the engine labors on a steep hill and the speed falls off appreciably, a change should be made to a lower gear of course and the throttle lever should be opened on a hill as wide as the occasion calls for.

                           THE USE OF THE BRAKES

     Avoid as far as possible any necessity for sudden stoppage. More damage is done to cars by inconsiderate and violent application of powerful brakes, than by any work they have to do. When intending to stop, release clutch at a reasonable distance and let the momentum of the car carry it up to the stopping place, when it can be brought gently to a standstill by a very slight application of foot brakes.

     When about to descend a steep hill and you do not want to use the brakes, put the first or second (that is one of the LOWEST) speeds in and switch off, letting the car drive the engine. This will prevent the car “getting away” on any hill, and the lower the speed you are in, the more effective the brake.

    A powerful emergency brake can be employed by using the reverse. This should be used only in case of extreme necessity. To effect a sudden stop release the clutch, throw the speed lever back to reverse and the engage the clutch gradually. This will bring the car to standstill in its own length.

 

 

The rear wheels should be detached every few months so that the multiple disc brakes may be packed with the very best grease. These brakes should also be oiled through the screw hole provided, from time to time, but grease also is needed to insure perfect working conditions.

[carbking]

In the for what its worth category:

 

The information in my database suggests that Metz used a Schebler model D on the 1909, 1910, and 1911 models. The D would be easier to adjust than the H.

 

The model H Schebler was typically used on motorcycles.

 

Of course records from this period are mostly incomplete.

 

Jon

[Hubert_25-25]

Jon, 

   I appreciate your comments here.  At one time we had (what was said to be) a NOS Schebler model D.  Purchased on Ebay.  The car would not run on it, and it was subsequently resold.  At this point, I would consider trying another or something else.  A running incorrect car is more valuable than a non running correct car.  

   I also heard from the owner that the original carbs were not very good, and many of them were replaced.  So not necessarily looking for what came on the car, but a good replacement.

 

Tomorrow I plan to make a temporary shim adjuster for the very large valve clearances which could also be a problem.   

Hugh

[carbking]

Hugh - sorry that you had bad luck with the Schebler D; we have had lots of customers use them successfully.

 

A few thoughts:

 

A new old stock Schebler D would be at least 80 years old (the Marvel/Schebler division of Borg/Warner was still making them as late as 1940).

 

Other than the normal spider nest in a jet possibility, there are three possible issues that come to mind:

 

(1) the cork gasket between the body halves could dry up, shrink, and create an internal vacuum leak.

(2) the leather sealing surface of the air valve could deteriorate and not seal at idle.

(3) the air valve spring could fatigue allowing the air valve to open too soon, thus running lean.

 

Jon

[Swear57]

Hugh                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 I will get you pictures and measurement Saturday. What is the black hose coming off the bottom of the carb and where does it go? Is there supposed to be linkage hooked up to it. I see you have a 25 Buick touring. I have a 13 Model 25 touring and a 27 Standard touring.

 

Jim

 

[Hubert_25-25]

Jim, 

   I think you are looking at the other Schlebler, and that is not my photo.  There is a black hose above Tom's Metz carburetor, but that is only temporary as I was wanting to check manifold vacuum.  Very erratic on a 2 cylinder and looks like a meaningless number unless you have 4 cylinders or more.  Please post some photos of your Buicks.  This is my 1925-25.  A ground up restoration.  It is super fun to drive.  The right side or the motor is a little different because I have the last year of the combination starter generator.  This is the factory color "Brewster Green with red pinstriping".    Hugh 

 

Edited February 9 by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)

[Hubert_25-25]

Did some shimming on the Metz valves.  The company that rebuilt the engine did not set the valve clearances.  It appears that on these older models, a person would cut or grind the valve stem to length as I see no adjustment system.  The worst valve clearance was .090  I assume this should be .012   So I used some .027 thick sheetmetal and cut it into a plus sign.  The center is 3/8 x 3/8 and the tabs are 1/4".  I also cut a 3/8 x 3/8 square out of .050 sheet metal to use as a shim.  I bent 3 tabs over, added the shim, and then bent over the last tab to hold it all in place.  The right side of the motor was not as far off so it only required a large plus sign shaped piece of .014 sheetmetal.  The motor does not clatter near as much when it runs now.  I still have a carburetor problem that I hope to resolve soon.  Hugh

 

 

[Swear57]

Hugh.                                                                I checked the clearance on my valves int .010 ex .020. The gas cap measure 2.5310 outside & 2.1860 inside. I have had the car running today & for a 2 cylinder I think it’s running pretty good. I need to drive it to see how it does under load. I do have exhaust leaks. I hope you can see the pictures.                                Jim

[Swear57]

Hi Hugh

I have been working on the Metz today. I had the engine running and noticed the intake plug on the right side was wet. I tighten the plug it was still leaking. I pulled it out and cleaned the threads and sealing points. Still leaking, I'm looking for a new copper gasket. What I was wondering was where the corrugated hose off the bottom of the carb go. Very nice Buick

[Swear57]

1907 Model F 1913 Model 25 & the 1927 Standard 

[Larry Schramm]

Nice Buicks.

[Land24]

Jim did you get it to run on the model H carburetor? Also my tank has different fuel cap threads than yours. Do you think Metz used just what was on hand? Gene

[Swear57]

Thanks Larry

Gene I have it running it's on the rich side. I don't think I want to lean it out too much being air cooled. When I shut it off gas leaks out of elbow that screws on to the bottom of the float bowel. I'm think it's a over flow vent. It stops after 2 or 3 minutes.  I had exhaust leaks at the cylinder heads, someone put the flanges on upside down or turned around, they are slightly off center. I made new gaskets and sealed up my exhaust leaks. I agree they must have used anything they could find. My front fenders are different than the ones on the blue car.

 

Jim S

[Hubert_25-25]

Jim, 

    You have a very nice collection of early Buicks.  

Two links to gas caps with coarse threads.  Tom's tank has a fine thread gas cap.  A machine shop could replicate your thread pretty easily.  Then the cap just needs a small hole to provide a vent.  Very strange to see the variety of gas caps on these cars.   

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/172267693439?epid=689706045&itmmeta=01HQ636EVHM3AWS3RKSZX7QPN1&hash=item281bf4657f:g:izcAAOSwGotWtQ-n&itmprp=enc%3AAQAIAAAA8DE5mA%2BY6jQ%2BHzX4BOZgHvsj3oKsTzaxA6OROTA7Bo9vlNU6Z%2F325xLpRZ3MHQ1OlgoV8rA9%2BFAXCXu%2BlRe68vLeOVUb5%2F8Ge8qqEjPMPhzO7y5umZ0GS5gsQ36QRrCqtpRm%2Fz0VFbzalaYOdNdrTZ2tFubiLxEQb94l5KivWExx1Zn%2FpexqrOUmBT2ShBLgAI3w7oWlyT%2FcaULM%2Bt71tjsjeJOxua88ui6lI20Pmn8pd118I8y%2BOikqYq5%2Frsj%2FJ1hCZc%2BlXpdA%2F6CgUqdjSzzxnEbN4%2BLdCC5IMnDBJKGCHXtplzudNZj0juXzaHeQwQ%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR4rumcO5Yw

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/256310861880?epid=9028007886&itmmeta=01HQ636EVHHVV4V9A63905FPCK&hash=item3bad516038:g:0SoAAOSwp8JlXlvd&itmprp=enc%3AAQAIAAAA0IMhCa%2B%2BrJDGgen5w0E6h14aRJa04Jdgmhrwh8uqIPDSEAsSbcZBDoPe%2FSWdcPavI8uc9VFbfMclU5VwhT4DaNoaibmX4T9KXpsg3v2zZuNFJqF%2BfqHpLTmng%2BktgHa9fQPIPnhYAWGfBsun9ALjqQb5JudtADp3ZYXqGivvoNFnBlq0AU%2BFLJzdMRZC7xfFdC2K0GcYCiWa%2ByXXPW1IObDqD17xUgrH2MLlXeeLYCNM3jaNk97c1lj3zUkgaS2pqKj5TY9Y%2B8SBmX1gO9HVVHc%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR4zumcO5Yw

 

Thanks for the valve clearance setting numbers.  Congratulations on getting your Metz running.  I am still struggling with this one.

I have noticed that the spark plug is over the intake valve, but I have also seen it over the exhaust valve on another engine.   Not sure how your engine is set up.  I am also curious how your throttle linkage is set up, but I need the correct carburetor to get this all correct.  

 

So I did install a Schebler Model D on the engine.  It does not fit well.  It requires a 1" NPT street elbow.  The body has to be separated to make the installation.  The 1" model H is the correct carburetor for this car.  The model D has an adjustable but single fuel needle setting.  The model H has a cam on the fuel needle to adjust the fuel flow with the air flow.  The model H is a better carburetor for this application.  That said, the car should still run at a fixed speed on the model D. 

 

There were thoughts that the points condensor could be a problem, but opening the magneto cover shows a recently rebuilt magneto and a new condensor.    Hugh

 

 

 

 

[carbking]

Hugh - if not too much trouble, I would like to have the identification number on the model H for my records. Somewhere there should be a stamping in the casting (generally on top) "HXnn) where nn is a number.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Jon

[carbking]

Hugh - I went back over ALL of my Schebler catalogues. All of them list the H as a motorcycle carburetor; however, if one reads the customer list of the 1908 catalog, one finds an entry for Metz - 1 inch model H. There is no mention of the identification number, which I would like to have, if you have it.

 

Here is some information (which you may already have) on the Model H from the 1908 catalog. The checkered background is due to having convert PDF files to JPEG for this site. Virtually all of my 100 plug gigs of carb data are stored as PDF files

 

Jon.

[carbking]

Well, they didn't load in the order I had them???

 

From the top is page 28, 27, 24, 25, 26. Read them in that order.

 

I need a course in displaying data on this site! Almost like my relationship with Holley carburetors. I have had customers open the hood to show me their engine with a shiny new Holley; and when the Holley sees me, it leaks all over the driveway!

 

Jon

[Hubert_25-25]

Jim, 

    Here is a photo of a gas cap on a Metz when the gas tank was under the hood.     Hugh

[Hubert_25-25]

Jon, 

    Thank you for the Schebler Model H adjustment notes.   I do not have a model H to get the ID numbers from.  I am still searching for a 1" model H.  I do have a photo of two Schebler Model H carburetors that came from a Metz owner named Dianne.  I assume these are from her cars, but they could also be spares.  These are both brass. 

     Thank you for converting files for posting.  I have to do the same with my power point and word docs.  I have to save each page as as .jpg so that I can post them.    

 

Jim, 

     Can you find any of the serial number information that Jon is looking for on your carburetor?  I do find it interesting that your carburetor looks to be aluminum.  

Hugh

 

[Swear57]

Thanks for all the information you guys have been posting. Jon said they made these carbs all the way up to the 40s. I think this might be a replacement being it's aluminum  The only thing I can find on the carb is Schebler and PAT# APLD. Jon would you know what the elbow on the bottom of the carb with the spring loaded butterfly is for? Is there suppose to be a hose hook to it or any linkage?

 

Thanks Jim S