31 LaSalle Posted December 5, 2023 Share Posted December 5, 2023 7 minutes ago, Edwin The Kid said: Been busy with finals week but finally finished one seat for the Franklin! hand stitching the rear cover Nice job good when you have the skill to do your own upholstery rather than send it out to be done 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin The Kid Posted January 15 Author Share Posted January 15 Been slowly picking away at the car while I wait on the clutch to get relined. I removed the mystery ring from the transmission and sealed it up. I painted the shifter black because that looks better than peeling chrome! Pulled the master out and disassembled it as well as all the wheel cylinders. I will be sending the master and 2 wheel cylinders for relining, and buying two new front cylinders from Jeff Hasslen. Also took some time to clean up the bellhousing part of the engine. I also fixed the speedo/odometer, and found out my clock works! \ 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theKiwi Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 2 minutes ago, Edwin The Kid said: I will be sending the master and 2 wheel cylinders for relining, and buying two new front cylinders from Jeff Hasslen. That's what I'm doing too - turned out my rear wheel cylinders were new, so I'm replacing the front one with the larger 1-⅜ wheel cylinders, and once I get the master cylinder apart will send that and my 2 rear cylinders to Jeff to go for sleeving along with the new cylinders so all are sleeved in stainless and will last forever. Roger 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin The Kid Posted March 7 Author Share Posted March 7 Still waiting on clutch and brake parts. New pilot bearing is installed, and a throwout bearing is on the way. Master and wheel cylinders are getting sleeved, and I need to order a few rebuild kits. Nicopp hard line is in the mail and new nuts from the club are here. Today I made some progress on the driveshaft, installing new u-joints from odyssey into the yokes. Once all the parts get here it's going to come together pretty quick! The Franklin is also in the corner spot while the Corvair gets some attention as well! Taking pictures of this car makes me realize how bent and crooked my bumpers are, lol. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin The Kid Posted April 11 Author Share Posted April 11 Exciting progress!! The car now moves under its own power! Clutch is lined Installing in car with 3d printed alignment tool Transmission install was remarkable easy, clutch is adjusted and functional! New wheel cylinders installed, next is to redo the copper hard lines with nicopp Cleaned gas tank installed, as well as rebuilt driveshaft, and the Franklin drove itself outside for a much needed wash. Limiting the amount of driving I'm doing as the only brake is the hand brake, but it runs and drives around the storage units very well! I'll be driving the car into the school shop here at McPherson this week to finish up the brakes, hopefully will have a roadworthy car soon! I'll post some videos as well. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Braverman Posted April 11 Share Posted April 11 The car is coming along great Edwin. We hope to see it and you at the Trek. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin The Kid Posted April 13 Author Share Posted April 13 More progress today, one step closer to having brakes! Pulled the car into class at McPherson to work on the brake lines. Having the car on the lift made making the new nicopp lines a breeze. Finished up the fuel line as well. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin The Kid Posted April 13 Author Share Posted April 13 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franklin28 Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 Keep these pictures coming. Great to see the progress. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38Buick 80C Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 I expected it to have mechanical brakes, Franklin made the change to hydraulic fairly early it would seem. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theKiwi Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 1 minute ago, 38Buick 80C said: I expected it to have mechanical brakes, Franklin made the change to hydraulic fairly early it would seem. 1928 with the Series 12 cars. This thread shows dates of many makes - as early as 1921 for Duesenberg apparently Roger 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFitz Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 Ed, The work is coming along very well. I recommend you turn that fuel line loop so that it is horizontal and not vertical. As it is with a high point in the loop, in hot weather it can catch and accumulate vapor bubbles there and cause a vapor lock blockage. From '29 on, Franklin used a looped fuel line from the pump to the carb but they always kept the loop in a horizontal plane. While vapor lock wasn't a problem in '29, it can be now. Not having any high points in the fuel line allows bubbles to pass through to the fuel bowl where they can be vented out through the bowl vent while they are still small enough to pass through. Paul 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin The Kid Posted April 13 Author Share Posted April 13 7 hours ago, 38Buick 80C said: I expected it to have mechanical brakes, Franklin made the change to hydraulic fairly early it would seem. Kinda wish they hadn't, it's an expensive system! 7 hours ago, theKiwi said: 1928 with the Series 12 cars. This thread shows dates of many makes - as early as 1921 for Duesenberg apparently Roger I was just looking at the hydraulic brakes on a 21 Duesenberg Model A that visited the school on Wednesday. A very strange brake setup! 3 hours ago, PFitz said: Ed, The work is coming along very well. I recommend you turn that fuel line loop so that it is horizontal and not vertical. As it is with a high point in the loop, in hot weather it can catch and accumulate vapor bubbles there and cause a vapor lock blockage. I'll make sure to do that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin The Kid Posted April 15 Author Share Posted April 15 Some more firsts: first time running out of gas! And then today my fuel pump failed(full tank of gas now!) so I'll need to find a rebuild kit for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFitz Posted April 15 Share Posted April 15 (edited) "Then and Now Automotive" has the kits. You want the FPA-18 for '29 & '30 Franklins. The '31 and later pumps have a different base. FPA-18 Fuel Pump kit | Then and Now Automotive (then-now-auto.com) Paul Edited April 15 by PFitz (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted April 15 Share Posted April 15 (edited) Interesting.......I would NEVER lift any pre war car up on an offset two post lift...........and they are doing it at a teaching institution. Pre war cars have very flexible frames, and damage to body and doors is very easy to occur. Also, weight ballance and uneven frame perch mounts can cause the car to come down or shift. Look at the great restoration shops that do pre war stuff.......NONE of them use a two post offset lift. PS- Love the car. And surprised it had juice brakes. Edited April 15 by edinmass (see edit history) 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFitz Posted April 15 Share Posted April 15 On 4/13/2024 at 2:11 PM, Edwin The Kid said: I'll make sure to do that! One other thing to help reduce chances of vapor lock. Remove the engine splash pans. Unless you're going mud-bogging they are not needed. They restrict some of cooling air flow through the hood front by reducing the area that the hot air can leave. That extra airflow is what helps cool the engine compartment and all of the fuel system in it. Paul 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFitz Posted April 15 Share Posted April 15 2 hours ago, edinmass said: Interesting.......I would NEVER lift any pre war car up on an offset two post lift...........and they are doing it at a teaching institution. Pre war cars have very flexible frames, and damage to body and doors is very easy to occur. Also, weight ballance and uneven frame perch mounts can cause the car to come down or shift. Look at the great restoration shops that do pre war stuff.......NONE of them use a two post offset lift. PS- Love the car. And surprised it had juice brakes. Like at Morrisville College auto tech program, they may have other types of lifts for heavier vehicles. I've used the single post lifts at Morrisville for heavier Franklins than Ed's '29 Victoria for my tech sessions and with no flexing problems. Franklins have very strong frames combined with being much lighter than most comparably sized cars of their era. That '29 Franklin Victoria is less than 4000 lbs. Plus, the best perch-points to lift steel-framed Franklins are flat and reenforced with double wall channels where you'd lift for the front half. I agree with you about other makes. I'd never get under a Packard or Pierce of the same body type with a two post. A restoration shop has to have lifts for whatever their heaviest projects are going to be. Paul 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin The Kid Posted April 15 Author Share Posted April 15 For what's it's worth regarding the lift: I would've used the 4 post but there's already a Packard light eight on it. I didn't notice any flexing on the Franklin. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hook Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 On 4/15/2024 at 1:27 AM, PFitz said: "Then and Now Automotive" has the kits. You want the FPA-18 for '29 & '30 Franklins. The '31 and later pumps have a different base. FPA-18 Fuel Pump kit | Then and Now Automotive (then-now-auto.com) Paul Paul, Restorationstuff.com has those pump repair kits for $34.00 which is a bit cheaper than Then and Now Automotive. their number is EPA018. No reason not to save a few bucks. Bill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theKiwi Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 43 minutes ago, hook said: Restorationstuff.com has those pump repair kits for $34.00 which is a bit cheaper than Then and Now Automotive. their number is EPA018. No reason not to save a few bucks. Actually it's FPA018, although the listing doesn't indicate that any of their repair kits are for Franklin... Roger 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFitz Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 (edited) 2 hours ago, theKiwi said: Actually it's FPA018, although the listing doesn't indicate that any of their repair kits are for Franklin... Roger Interesting that they use the same part number as Then and Now Automotive. Yes, Restoration Supply Company doesn't list Franklins. You'd have to know which year Franklin uses an "A" or a "B" pump and nothing in Franklin literature uses the model letter, just AC's Franklin-specific part number on the drawing and that number does not appear on the pumps. Then and Now does list by Franklin and you can see the different mounting gaskets to know the FPA-18 is the kit used for '29-'30. I learned the Franklin AC model letter years back during phone call ordering conversations with Tom Hanniford when it was just known as the Antique Autoparts Cellar. Tom liked to use the model letter when you told him what year Franklin you needed the kit for. Paul Edited April 20 by PFitz (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hook Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 5 hours ago, theKiwi said: Actually it's FPA018, although the listing doesn't indicate that any of their repair kits are for Franklin... Roger oops!! I did make a mistake on the F. In fact, if you look at the Franklin Service Station issue 166, Jan. 2021 you will see I somehow made the same mistake in my write up on the Franklin Fuel pumps A & B. In that issue I delve into the biggest problem with the 29/30 pump and why AC got rid of the model. A few years before that I informed Restoration Stuff about their kits fitting Franklins. I guess it just fell on deft ears. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFitz Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 (edited) 9 hours ago, hook said: Paul, Restorationstuff.com has those pump repair kits for $34.00 which is a bit cheaper than Then and Now Automotive. their number is EPA018. No reason not to save a few bucks. Bill Bill, One reason the Then and Now kits may be more expensive is it has all replacement pivot pins and clips for the linkages. I don't see them with the Restoration Supply kit. As you mention in your FSS write up the pins wear and replacing them helps get pump travel pressure back into the 2-4 psi range the pump is originally rated for by Franklin. Another wear problem that prevents a rebuilt pump from getting the proper pressure(volume) output is the pump pushrod. With some wear at the camshaft lobe and pump arm, but most of the loss of pump diaphragm travel is the combined wear at each end of the push rod because it has the smallest contact patch. Not much can or needs to be done about the slight wear at cam lobe and pump arm. However, eliminating the pushrod wear makes a bigger difference than addressing the pump linkage wear. And by making a slightly longer than stock pushrod the wear at cam and pump can be compensated for more easily than other ways. As a result, I've had calls to make quite a few new longer pushrods in recent years. Including working with one member in Texas to find the correct length to get his very worn, but rebuilt '30 pump into the 2-4 psi range. A previous owner had welded metal onto the worn pushrod and made it too long. It was overriding the float with too much fuel pressure and flooding the carb and engine. Paul Edited April 20 by PFitz (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hook Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 1 hour ago, PFitz said: Bill, One reason the Then and Now kits may be more expensive is it has all replacement pivot pins and clips for the linkages. I don't see them with the Restoration Supply kit. As you mention in your FSS write up the pins wear and replacing them helps get pump travel pressure back into the 2-4 psi range the pump is originally rated for by Franklin. Another wear problem that prevents a rebuilt pump from getting the proper pressure(volume) output is the pump pushrod. With some wear at the camshaft lobe and pump arm, but most of the loss of pump diaphragm travel is the combined wear at each end of the push rod because it has the smallest contact path. Not much can or needs to be done about the slight wear at cam lobe and pump arm. However, eliminating the pushrod wear makes a bigger difference than addressing the pump linkage wear. And by making a slightly longer than stock pushrod the wear at cam and pump can be compensated for more easily than other ways. As a result, I've had calls to make quite a few new longer pushrods in recent years. Including working with one member in Texas to find the correct length to get his very worn, but rebuilt '30 pump into the 2-4 psi range. A previous owner had welded metal onto the worn pushrod and made it too long. It was overriding the float with too much fuel pressure and flooding the carb and engine. Paul I see that. That makes it well worth the extra cost. They also list the other two pumps (31-34 6 cyl. and the V12) with the pins included. Thank you for pointing that out. Bill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin The Kid Posted April 25 Author Share Posted April 25 Got the kit from Then and Now, works great! Drove around some more. Getting close with the brakes, just need to do some adjusting. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
63RedBrier Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 Watching your progress Edwin... You're doing a great job with the Victoria Brougham! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin The Kid Posted April 28 Author Share Posted April 28 Really enjoying driving this car, despite having to drive slowly and cautiously on the parking brake. I'm getting ready for the McPherson College car show on May 4th, so I'm working on some of the smaller details. I've been working on converting the coil/switch unit to just a switch unit, but need to find some small brass rivets to make a new contact piece for the internal mechanism. Temporarily installed a toggle switch in the dash, which is way better than my previous solution of a jumper wire from the battery to the coil. I also cleaned up and installed the fender lights. No wiring for any lights yet, but it makes the car look more complete! I'm going to adjust the brakes this coming week and hopefully have the car stopping well enough to drive on the road confidently. Still will be careful on the old wards riverside tires. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFitz Posted April 28 Share Posted April 28 (edited) The double anchor Wagners are not easy to get set up. There are some tricks to adjusting them to make then work best. First make sure to deglaze the drum's shoe contact surface by wiping with brake clean or lacquer thinner then sand the surface with fine emory cloth. Second, make sure the shoes fit the drum over the entire length of the lining. Shoes lined with original thickness lining will not fit to a worn drum. If the new linings are not to be sanded to fit the worn drums, often shim stock is put under the linings equal in thickness to how much the drums are worn so that the curvature of the lining matches the drums like when the drums and linings were new. When adjusting the shoes start with the top adjusters. Back them off. Then go to the anchors. Turn the left-hand anchor counterclockwise until the shoe contacts the drum. Then clockwise for the right-hand anchor. That moves the shoe to the upper range of the anchor's eccentric adjustment range giving the piston pushrods a straight push toward the shoes instead of angled down and losing some force due to greater than a 90 degree vector. Then back both anchors off about a quarter turn. Now adjust in small degrees by alternately turning the upper adjuster and anchor to move the shoe toward the drum. Don't try to get contact all at once. Alternate top and bottom so that the shoe moves evenly toward contact with the drum at heal and toe. Once the shoe is contacting the drum all along the lining surface then lock the anchor nut. Now back off the upper adjuster until the shoes just stop dragging on the drum. Check the clearance between drum and lining with a feeler gage through the drum opening. Once all eight shoes are set that way go drive it and "burnish" the linings by getting up to about 30mph and then stopping very hard. Do that several times. That will smooth and better seat the linings onto the shoes. Now recheck the clearance using the feeler gauge. Adjust as needed. Once the shoes are properly adjusted never change the anchor adjustments. Do all adjusting for wear only by using the upper adjusters. Paul Edited April 28 by PFitz (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theKiwi Posted April 28 Share Posted April 28 Thanks Paul - another post copied to a document on my computer for when I get to that stage on my 153 Deluxe Coupe. Cheers Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFitz Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 (edited) 6 hours ago, theKiwi said: Thanks Paul - another post copied to a document on my computer for when I get to that stage on my 153 Deluxe Coupe. Cheers Roger If you haven't relined the shoes yet, as you know the original lining is 1-3/4 wide. But the '30 and later stamped steel shoes are 2 inch wide and the drum contact area is closer to 2-1/4. When I reline shoes, I use 2 inch wide lining and set it flush to what will be the backing plate side of each shoe. Then I label the shoes left or right for each drum depending on which side is flush. The slight curve of the stamped steel shoe edge is not enough for the edge of the lining to lose support. By using 2 inch wide lining it gives more friction/contact surface area to each shoe. By adding that 1/4 inch in width it is like having the square area stopping power of 9 shoes instead of 8. For the '28 brake shoes with 6 one length and two longer, I send the owner looking for pairs of the longer cast shoes and use those in place of the 6 short shoes to likewise increase the lining surface area. If none can be found I put the long shoe on the front drums instead of on the rears as was originally done. Franklin seemed to still be putting emphasis on rear brakes doing the most work in 1928. They got away from that in later production. Paul Edited April 29 by PFitz (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theKiwi Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 My shoes have been relined, although right now while I'm inside I don't know what width lining was used. The problem I haven't delved too deeply in to is that the front cylinders were old and leaking, and despite the car supposedly not having driven very far the front shoes have been wet with brake fluid. So that's a problem for some future time when I'm ready to start putting things together. The rear cylinders were brand new, and didn't seem to have had any fluid to them. Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFitz Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 1 hour ago, theKiwi said: My shoes have been relined, although right now while I'm inside I don't know what width lining was used. The problem I haven't delved too deeply in to is that the front cylinders were old and leaking, and despite the car supposedly not having driven very far the front shoes have been wet with brake fluid. So that's a problem for some future time when I'm ready to start putting things together. The rear cylinders were brand new, and didn't seem to have had any fluid to them. Roger A good soaking with brake clean or lacquer thinner will clean the brake fluid out of the linings. I use lacquer thinner because I buy it in 5 gallon drums to clean spray guns, tools, greasy/oily parts and old gasoline varnish without it leaving any residue of its own. Paul 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin The Kid Posted May 3 Author Share Posted May 3 Hard to tell in photos but did an initial round of polishing on the paint. Looks much better. Adjusted the brakes and the car is stopping pretty well! Really enjoying driving this car. Should be sitting pretty for the Mac college car show on Saturday 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 Looks fantastic! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hook Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 25 minutes ago, alsancle said: Looks fantastic! ditto 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 Put the brakes in a toaster oven, set the unit to broil and leave in one hour. It will burn off the fluid 100 percent. It's the only way to do it, as brake clean will NOT get it all out. Also works for oil. Been doing it for over 45 years, and no issues. PS- Be sure you don't do it in the house for fumes..........or your wife will kill you! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theKiwi Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 It looks great after the shining job. Well Done! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38Buick 80C Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 8 hours ago, edinmass said: PS- Be sure you don't do it in the house for fumes..........or your wife will kill you! That young man may not have that issue....yet! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 Pfitz - great explanation of the brake system and how to get correct contact and function……two thumbs up for someone who actually knows what they are doing! 👍👍 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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