leaded fuel

[NTX5467]

3 hours ago, cquisuila said:

Read in France for recession of valve seats  :🗯️

 

"The experience of some always benefits others, it is good to remember that the Americans stopped all trade in leaded gasoline in the 1970s, imitated immediately by the Japanese.

 

Did they experience an epidemic of recession of valve seats ? No, and all the surveys carried out since then show that there were no more mechanical incidents after the switch to lead-free than before.  And they specify that valve seat recession has always existed, that cast iron cylinder heads without added seats are, as before, the most exposed to this “natural” phenomenon, that aluminum cylinder heads with added seats are less sensitive to it, like before.

 

Most “serious” professionals have since come around to this opinion and no longer recommend the systematic replacement of valve seats with “reinforced steel valve seats”.

 

The latter obviously do not exist, even if we can, by playing with words, say that indeed the material used today is undoubtedly of better quality than 30 years ago...

 

CONCLUSION

We recommend to check valve clearance regularly (every 5000 km) and if you notice that your clearance is regularly decreasing, change them. Before, it's useless. That said, if you have a car with a cast iron cylinder head in which the valve seats are not attached, and if you do more than 10,000 km per year, you will have every interest in having steel seats inserted.

You will make your vehicle last longer. cylinder head longer. But this is not new, it is an operation which has always been practiced by rectifiers..."

Valve adjustments being used to gauge valve seat recession is one way to do it, BUT also remember that any mechanical lifter flat tappet engine, in the era when leaded gasoline was everywhere, was common.  The issue was more related to valve lifter contact surface wear than valve seat recession.  Some engines, as the VW Beatle 4cyl would actually tighten the valve adjustment with time, so whenever you heard one of them with a higher-pitched "wheeeze", that was why.  Adjusting the valve lash eliminated that noise.

 

Take care,

NTX5467

[BulldogDriver]

Aviation fuel is still leaded. 
 

Ray

[RivNut]

1 hour ago, NTX5467 said:

If your pockets are a bit deep, you can still buy leaded racing fuel, of about 114 Research Octane in drums from several sources.  Not financially-sustainable (even if mixed), though.  You might also need a Fire Marshal's approval (and inspections) of the storage facility, too.  Best to use the least expensive method and buy fuel from a higher-volume location.

 

This morning, the Murphy USA station (in front of a WalMart) was selling 87 Pump Octane unleaded for $3.19 USD gallon.  A QT station on the Interstate was selling Tier One 87 Pump Octane unleaded for the same price.  FWIW

 

Enjoy!

NTX5467
 

Linda and I just returned from spending 5 weeks in Europe.  We rented four different cars in that time (Renault Clio, Hyundai Iconic, VW Polo, and SEAT Ibiza (built in Spain). Two right hand drives - Renault and Hyundai, and three 6 speed manauls - Renault, Hyundai, SEAT.  The Hyundai Iconic hybrid was the best of the four.  Averaged about 66 mpg.  But what we paid for "petrol" makes us glad to get home to the 34 mpg with the little Buick Encore GX. 

 

We were buying petrol for about 1.98 Euro / liter.  1.98 Euros is aboout 2.17 US Dollars.  3.8 liters of petrol make 1 US gallon.  ergo, we were paying about $8.42 US dollars per gallon of gas.  Besides lodging, this had to be our greatest expense.  I drove around (literallly following the coasts) of Scotland, then Ireland following the Wild Atlantic Way, then across Normanday and the north of France, took the train to Frankfurt, Germany and picked up the 4th car. Drove all over Bavaria following the Romantic Road from Wurzburg to Garmish-Partenkirchen.  A bunch of miles (in the UK) and kilometers (mainland Europe) but enjoyed every moment of it.  It was worth the $8.42 avg per gallon though.  When we were through, we'd covered every means of transportation - planes, trains, automobiles, busses, taxis, "tubes", Ubers, ferries, shuttles, and even horse drawn carriages. Lots of walking - I lost 12 pounds.

Edited September 22, 2023 by RivNut (see edit history)

[Frank DuVal]

On 9/19/2023 at 11:24 AM, NTX5467 said:

Back in the earlier 1960s, Flying A gasolines and exclusively "no-lead" gasolines.  It was basically an east cost brand, as I recall.  I do not recall hearing of and cyl head problems from using that fuel.  Additionally, "white gas" (i.e., no-lead) was available at higher altitudes as that's all the octane needed "up there" for many motors.  At lower altitudes, some gas stations had it available from a tank, for outboard boat motors and such. 

Weird. Here Amoco (American) was never leaded back in the 60s, and the premium was unleaded right up to when there was no leaded gas. Mobilgas was also white gas in the early 60s. Some lawnmower engines said to use Mobilgas white gas right on the data plate! We are at sea level, not any altitude to speak of. And I'm not talking about marinas, regular pump gas. I never bought from a Flying A before the stations disappeared here, so I do not know if they were white gas. One grandfather used a gallon clear glass apple juice container for lawnmower fuel, so I could tell easily if a brand was white or not!😁

[XframeFX]

12 hours ago, NTX5467 said:

VW Beatle 4cyl would actually tighten the valve adjustment with time, so whenever you heard one of them with a higher-pitched "wheeeze",

Ah, I remember that noise. Now I know, TX!

Always wondered why Subaru boxer engines did not make that noise.

[OldGerman]

Leaded fuel is no longer available in Europe. Switzerland was the last country prohibited it in 2000.

On european gasoline stations, you have no longer regular fuel with 91 Roz, but only super E5 with 95 Roz (5% Methanols) , super E10 95 Roz 10% Ethanol, and Super Plus with 98 Roz (5% Ethanol).

there are also premium fuels with 100/102 Roz, very expensive.

I‘m using E5 and somtimes adding a valve protection additive.

I’m also adding 1/300 two stroke oel into the Gas tank for some on top intake valve and piston lubrication. 

I do not Race my car and Canot Hear valve ping. 95 Roz is sufficient, if you do not race and avoid hard accelaration. Just my opinion, I‘m no expert.

 

 

[demco32]

We always use the 98 octane rating.

On my Toyota tundra I have LPG with special oil lubrication for the valves because LPG have 106 octane and bun hotter.

( LPG = liquid petroleum gas )

I do not use the 2-stroke oil because this oil give residue on the valves and vale seats.

 

 

 

[demco32]

12 hours ago, RivNut said:

Linda and I just returned from spending 5 weeks in Europe.  We rented four different cars in that time (Renault Clio, Hyundai Iconic, VW Polo, and SEAT Ibiza (built in Spain). Two right hand drives - Renault and Hyundai, and three 6 speed manauls - Renault, Hyundai, SEAT.  The Hyundai Iconic hybrid was the best of the four.  Averaged about 66 mpg.  But what we paid for "petrol" makes us glad to get home to the 34 mpg with the little Buick Encore GX. 

 

We were buying petrol for about 1.98 Euro / liter.  1.98 Euros is aboout 2.17 US Dollars.  3.8 liters of petrol make 1 US gallon.  ergo, we were paying about $8.42 US dollars per gallon of gas.  Besides lodging, this had to be our greatest expense.  I drove around (literallly following the coasts) of Scotland, then Ireland following the Wild Atlantic Way, then across Normanday and the north of France, took the train to Frankfurt, Germany and picked up the 4th car. Drove all over Bavaria following the Romantic Road from Wurzburg to Garmish-Partenkirchen.  A bunch of miles (in the UK) and kilometers (mainland Europe) but enjoyed every moment of it.  It was worth the $8.42 avg per gallon though.  When we were through, we'd covered every means of transportation - planes, trains, automobiles, busses, taxis, "tubes", Ubers, ferries, shuttles, and even horse drawn carriages. Lots of walking - I lost 12 pounds.

It is now 2.13€ / liter

[60FlatTop]

I remember studying my I. C. S. correspondence courses during my idle hours on the Tonkin Gulf. AMACO and other unleaded fuels used phosphates in place of tetra ethyl lead. Tricresyl and bicrestyl phosphate come to mind.

 

Never finished that course, In 1968 knowing the size drill bit to cure the stumbling carburetor of a 1949 Plymouth did not seem significant in 1968. That was before I understood how important learning how many small facts could help learning the big things.

 

Still remember those phosphates though. And I smile at using a word with two ph's.

[NTX5467]

4 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

I remember studying my I. C. S. correspondence courses during my idle hours on the Tonkin Gulf. AMACO and other unleaded fuels used phosphates in place of tetra ethyl lead. Tricresyl and bicrestyl phosphate come to mind.

 

Still remember those phosphates though. And I smile at using a word with two ph's.

Thanks for mentioning the anti-wear additives in that earlier unleaded gasoline.  I knew there had to be "something" in them!  Just as there are other things to minimize flat tappet/cam lobe wear other than zddp (which is the least expensive alternative).  But zddp and TEL are what everybody keys upon.

 

Thanks,

NTX5467

[RivNut]

The ZDDP is not necessary if you use the correct oil in the first place.  Any oil that has at least 1,000 ppm (parts per million) of zinc and phosphate will give you enough protection.  There are a number of them out there.  Read the formula for each oil and you can figure out which to use.  A friend of mine went to a seminar on oils at a recent SEMA show and learned that adding additives like ZDDP to oils upsets the original formula and makes them worse.  

[cquisuila]

1 hour ago, RivNut said:

The ZDDP is not necessary if you use the correct oil in the first place.  Any oil that has at least 1,000 ppm (parts per million) of zinc and phosphate will give you enough protection.  

Very good information

Thanks !!!

[XframeFX]

3 hours ago, RivNut said:

adding additives like ZDDP to oils upsets the original formula and makes them worse

Yes, I've heard that too. Polar vs Non-Polar additives. Beyond my understanding.

 

I purchased break-in oil before I decided to not install my new camshaft. Using break-in oil anyways. Should be fine until next summer?

[NTX5467]

One problem with adding additives after blending, by consumers, is the old "If some is good, more will be better" orientation.  Everybody is of the orientation that all older oils had plenty of zddp in them for flat tappets, but some of the oil analysis reports I've found online to not support that claim.  Some brands had less zddp in them that some of the modern oils which are supposed to be stayed away from.  As other brands had more, but nothing like the 1400ppm of zddp many feel is needed.

 

In researching the zddp issue when it first seemed to start, most of the USA failures were in "racing" and "high performance" engines with higher valve lifts (over .475" or so) or rebuilt engines (which used an aftermarket camshaft).  THEN the issue appeared in some VW engines (which used a cam lobe to run their high-pressure injection pump).  For the VW application, I looked at the oil recommended for those engines, which was an "SL" rated oil, which is capped at 1000ppm zddp and usually synthetic.  Castrol sells a "black bottle" oil in "SL", 5W30, and (of course for them) full-synthetic.

 

When I sold the last new Chevy ZZ430 crate motor, I carefully removed the Installation Instruction pamphlet, looking for engine oil specs for that motor . . . which had been "fire tested" at the engine plant that built it.  It plainly said "SM" 10W-30 motor oil (which was the GM OEM spec at the time), with no mention of synthetic motor oil specifically.  This motor had a high-lift cam and stiffer balve springs, yet it would "live" on oil with 800ppm zddp?  BUT with a Parkerizing process on the cam to OEM specs.  Which led me to suspect that the failed aftermarket cams had lesser coatings which worked fine with the "SL" oils but not the later ones.  Then, CompCams later offered the "additional Parkerizing" as an option.  Suspicion confirmed?  Plus, as suspected, every cam manufacturer eventually had their own-brand of zddp additives for "break-in" or normal running.

 

Of course, upgrading to roller valve lifters is an expensive proposition.  Only problem is that roller-lifter cams were usually for ultra-performance race motors with higher lifts and lift rates which any kind of flat tappet could not tolerate.  The OEM orientation is using them to "get friction out of the motor", plus a better lift curve for the valves.  Ford's "answer" was mushroom-bottom lifters in their Y-block V-8s.  

 

There's a lot more to this deal than many might suspect, from my observations.  Decades later, the primary oil additive keyed-on is zddp.  THEN in an apparent effort to sell more of THEIR brand of motor oil, their "oil guy" states that using diesel-rated oil in a gasoline-fired engine is not good, due to "a different type of zddp in diesel oil that (apparently) does not work as well in a gasoline motor".  Of course, a diesel motor oil has to deal with a bunch of things a gasoline motor oil does not (like keeping soot in suspension) for very long oil change intervals.  But the friction/wear issues would be the same, I suspect.

 

Years ago, when a brand spokesperson claimed "Use our product as it is better", I started to look for hidden agendas, which can mean "follow the money".  Why would that spokesperson claim their oil is better (in a technical orientation) than another brand, if it might be that they desired to sell more of their-brand oil as a result?  Considering that brand also has oil with massive amounts of zddp in it for specific race or "engine building" uses.  I'm not disputing their statements, just a bit skeptical until I personally discover otherwise, related to the types of zddp, (which I don't doubt, but nobody had mentioned them before).

 

But, as I've mentioned before, zddp is not the ONLY part of a high-pressure, friction-lowering motor oil additive package for a daily-use motor oil with great detergency qualities.  My personal research is ongoing . . .

 

Sorry for the length,

NTX5467