Degeraths Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 Okay, here is the issue the car is having. When trying to start the car I find that the starter is only able to turn the engine over around 1 revolution per 1.5, 2 seconds. This results in the typical cranking one would associate with a nearly dead battery. Fully charging the battery seems to have little to no effect. The battery has been taken to a battery store to be tested and was found to be fine, producing a little over 6v and just a few over 600 CCA's, as per the specs on this battery. The cables are the proper 6v rated and all of the connections, both ground and positive have been properly checked, cleaned and tightened. I have taken the starter apart and cleaned it thoroughly, cleaned connection points and oiled where it needed it. It had no effect on the issue. I removed the spark plugs on the engine and tried the starter and found that it was able to easily spin the engine without the compression pushing back, confirming (thankfully) that my engine was not partially seized. The engine itself was rebuilt not long ago by a previous owner and the compression is quite tight and since this is a straight six, which are notoriously heavy engines for a starter to turn, I suspect the tighter than normal compression coupled with the already heavy turn over might be a struggle for the starter to handle? I was told that this kind of engine really should have a 6v battery with at least 800 CCA's to turn over quickly and consistently, but I will say that this current system seemed to work without much issue with the previous owner, but, he didn't drive the car nearly as often as I do and that added amount of use might have worn both the battery and the charger down a bit? I would be interested to hear your thoughts regarding what you believe could be the issue here. Do you think it is a battery that simply doesn't have the CCA's for the engine? Or do you suspect that the starter motor might be bad? I will also add that when the engine starts it runs EXTREMELY well and has no mechanical issues that would result in a problem starting. The problem is that the starter is simply unable to turn the engine over fast enough for reliable starting before it dies completely and is unable to even turn the engine over at all. Even with the battery fully charged I get perhaps 5 to 10 slow revolutions before it stops all together and is unable to crank the engine again. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chistech Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 I have a 31 chevy that I restored and was experiencing the same issue. My motor was freshly rebuilt and everyone was telling me the motor was just tight. I had an older Optima battery (800 CCA) that would start the car, though I would often hit the starter pedal and get a revolution out of it, then have to hit the pedal again, repeating the process until it started. This was with a “professionally “ restored starter I bought. I lived with the issue for almost two years and refrained from driving the car much as it never wanted to start once hot so stopping for gas often meant the hand crank came out to get it started. This year I went to get the car out of storage and with the battery fully charged (I keep it on a battery tender) it didn’t really want to start. I did get it running and brought the car home to my garage. I went and purchased a new optima battery and installed it. Sure enough, same issue. Now I’m ticked off and decided to install a spare ORIGINAL starter that came on a part’s motor I purchased. No shiny paint, no ID tag. Just a ratty looking starter that I knew worked because it started the part’s motor I bought fairly easy. I installed the old starter and double checked my connections which were all good. I run my ground strap directly to my trans and my positive cable is a HD correct one from Rhode Island wiring. Once the “old” starter was installed I hit the starter pedal and the “tight” motor spun over like a prop on a running Cessna aircraft with the car immediately firing up! I no longer even have to retard the timing and I can have the clutch pedal depressed. Normal practice is to retard timing and start the car in neutral with no pressure on the clutch pedal. I was totally surprised and now drive my 31 everywhere with it starting with barely a bump on the pedal when it’s warmed up. To start it cold all I do is pump the accelerator a couple to three times and hit the starter pedal but still in neutral with the parking brake set. It doesn’t even need to be choked when cold in this warmer weather. I believe many of these starters have gotten rebuilt with the wrong armature’s or field coils but I don’t know the difference between what’s used in the 6v starter vs. the 12v. I know my “restored” start turns over wonderfully with 12v but won’t start my car with 6v. My ratty old starter that came out of an original car works like a dream. I do know that if the front bushing is worn it can cause issues when it engages the flywheel with the starter not turning over well but again, my restored starter is all new. Your guess is a good as mine but I’d try finding another original starter that is known to work properly and try it. I learned first hand and took a beautifully restored car from being an occasional driver to a reliable, everyday driver. On another note: I have a friend with a 32 with a fresh motor and rebuilt starter that had the same issue starting. He put two optima’s in his car with a switch so he can spin his over on 12v. I really believe there’s got to be a voltage difference in the armatures and field coils and these rebuild shops are missing it. Why does an old original starter spin the motor over on 6v but a new rebuilt one not? To me it has to be wrong components installed. But hey, I’ve been wrong before, plenty of times! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordy Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 It sounds to me like there is an issue with your starter motor. It could be short in either the armature or the fields - the insulation can anddoes break down over time and with use, especially if it has been overheated by too long a cranking cycle. Try another starter or have yours checked over by a competent auto electrician (not one of the new guys who just remove and replace) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degeraths Posted July 2, 2023 Author Share Posted July 2, 2023 2 hours ago, chistech said: I have a 31 chevy that I restored and was experiencing the same issue. My motor was freshly rebuilt and everyone was telling me the motor was just tight. I had an older Optima battery (800 CCA) that would start the car, though I would often hit the starter pedal and get a revolution out of it, then have to hit the pedal again, repeating the process until it started. This was with a “professionally “ restored starter I bought. I lived with the issue for almost two years and refrained from driving the car much as it never wanted to start once hot so stopping for gas often meant the hand crank came out to get it started. This year I went to get the car out of storage and with the battery fully charged (I keep it on a battery tender) it didn’t really want to start. I did get it running and brought the car home to my garage. I went and purchased a new optima battery and installed it. Sure enough, same issue. Now I’m ticked off and decided to install a spare ORIGINAL starter that came on a part’s motor I purchased. No shiny paint, no ID tag. Just a ratty looking starter that I knew worked because it started the part’s motor I bought fairly easy. I installed the old starter and double checked my connections which were all good. I run my ground strap directly to my trans and my positive cable is a HD correct one from Rhode Island wiring. Once the “old” starter was installed I hit the starter pedal and the “tight” motor spun over like a prop on a running Cessna aircraft with the car immediately firing up! I no longer even have to retard the timing and I can have the clutch pedal depressed. Normal practice is to retard timing and start the car in neutral with no pressure on the clutch pedal. I was totally surprised and now drive my 31 everywhere with it starting with barely a bump on the pedal when it’s warmed up. To start it cold all I do is pump the accelerator a couple to three times and hit the starter pedal but still in neutral with the parking brake set. It doesn’t even need to be choked when cold in this warmer weather. I believe many of these starters have gotten rebuilt with the wrong armature’s or field coils but I don’t know the difference between what’s used in the 6v starter vs. the 12v. I know my “restored” start turns over wonderfully with 12v but won’t start my car with 6v. My ratty old starter that came out of an original car works like a dream. I do know that if the front bushing is worn it can cause issues when it engages the flywheel with the starter not turning over well but again, my restored starter is all new. Your guess is a good as mine but I’d try finding another original starter that is known to work properly and try it. I learned first hand and took a beautifully restored car from being an occasional driver to a reliable, everyday driver. On another note: I have a friend with a 32 with a fresh motor and rebuilt starter that had the same issue starting. He put two optima’s in his car with a switch so he can spin his over on 12v. I really believe there’s got to be a voltage difference in the armatures and field coils and these rebuild shops are missing it. Why does an old original starter spin the motor over on 6v but a new rebuilt one not? To me it has to be wrong components installed. But hey, I’ve been wrong before, plenty of times! You sound like you definitely experienced EXACTLY what I’m dealing with and yes, it is intensely frustrating knowing that I can’t trust the car to start again if I take it for a drive somewhere. I mean, what’s the point of owning a car like this if you drive it?? I can’t thank you enough for your insight and I believe I am likely dealing with the same issue you did and will focus on following your lead. As luck would have it, the Filling Station is only about an hour and a half away so I’ll be calling them on Monday and seeing if they sell the proper 6v components for a rebuild or perhaps have an old useable starter in stock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 I agree it sounds like a bad starter issue. I would add, run a ground from the battery directly to a starter mounting bolt. Current just doesn’t flow through rusty/painted frame or engine connections as it did when car was new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degeraths Posted July 2, 2023 Author Share Posted July 2, 2023 3 hours ago, trimacar said: I agree it sounds like a bad starter issue. I would add, run a ground from the battery directly to a starter mounting bolt. Current just doesn’t flow through rusty/painted frame or engine connections as it did when car was new. That's not a bad idea. But I don't think my current ground (ribbon cable) is long enough to reach. I would have to find a new ground wire of suitable length and diameter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 3 minutes ago, Degeraths said: That's not a bad idea. But I don't think my current ground (ribbon cable) is long enough to reach. I would have to find a new ground wire of suitable length and diameter. Use jumper cables to test the ground theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degeraths Posted July 2, 2023 Author Share Posted July 2, 2023 26 minutes ago, alsancle said: Use jumper cables to test the ground theory. I was doing that when you replied... 😄 No joy on that theory unfortunately. ☹️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chistech Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 Run your ground to the top of one of your transmission cover bolts. A 31 chevy is hard mounted to the frame so all the other electrical components will get a ground. It’s better to have the strongest ground directly to the engine assembly. The issue is and was very frustrating to me. I couldn’t believe how well the old “saved for parts” starter I had put on the shelf worked. I was mad at myself for trusting the starter shop as doing the job right. I would like someone here who might have knowledge about starters and their components to chime in. Can the issue be a wrong armature or field coils? Are there differences in the voltages for those parts? I just purchased another 31 motor complete and I’m saving that starter also as it worked perfectly. I just don’t trust these professional shops anymore. Too many issues with rebuilt stuff not being right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degeraths Posted July 2, 2023 Author Share Posted July 2, 2023 1 hour ago, chistech said: Run your ground to the top of one of your transmission cover bolts. A 31 chevy is hard mounted to the frame so all the other electrical components will get a ground. It’s better to have the strongest ground directly to the engine assembly. The issue is and was very frustrating to me. I couldn’t believe how well the old “saved for parts” starter I had put on the shelf worked. I was mad at myself for trusting the starter shop as doing the job right. I would like someone here who might have knowledge about starters and their components to chime in. Can the issue be a wrong armature or field coils? Are there differences in the voltages for those parts? I just purchased another 31 motor complete and I’m saving that starter also as it worked perfectly. I just don’t trust these professional shops anymore. Too many issues with rebuilt stuff not being right. The ground is attached to the transmission. The battery is fully charged and although it is only rated for 600 CCA's, that should be enough at full charge to at least turn the engine over more than perhaps three revolutions before stopping. I just got done taking the starter completely apart and cleaned and polished every single contact component, blew it all out with high pressure air and wiped every contact surface with grease remover. The thing is practically sterile.... I put it back in the car and is made absolutely NO difference whatsoever. I am so angry I had to walk away before I put a hammer through the windshield. I really needed this car for something coming up very soon and now I am not sure what to do at this point. There are rebuilding kits online for this that replace every basic component except the case, but I have no idea how well those would work. I wish I could just find someone with an extra starter that wants to sell. I tried putting a wanted post for a starter on several Facebook Groups and all I got was about 25 PM's from obvious scammers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chistech Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 I might have another extra starter. Let me check and if i have one, i will put it my car to test it and even send you a video. It won’t look like new because I haven’t blasted and painted anything in my spares but it working correctly is more important than being shiny black new! I’ll check tomorrow and let you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chistech Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 Did your current starter work good at one time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degeraths Posted July 2, 2023 Author Share Posted July 2, 2023 1 minute ago, chistech said: Did your current starter work good at one time? It did work. I've only had the car about three weeks and it always has been slow to crank the engine since I got her. I had a 1927 Dodge before this and that would crank over as fast as a modern car so I just figured the 6 cylinder engine on the Chevy is just a slower crank. But since I have been driving it around it has gotten worse and worse and now it's at the point where there is no hope of it actually starting the car. It mimics a dead battery and that is originally what I thought was going on, but the battery test showed that it was fine. I first noticed that it would seem to crank the engine over fine when everything was cold. But once everything got hot after an afternoon drive, trying to restart her was much, much more difficult. To the point that I didn't want to turn the car off until I was in my driveway for fear that I would get stuck somewhere. I also noticed that the battery terminals would get warm/hot when trying to start the car. If you could check on the spare starter and let me know how much you want for it I would greatly appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degeraths Posted July 2, 2023 Author Share Posted July 2, 2023 8 minutes ago, chistech said: If you want I would be happy to do a partial trade for mine so at least you would get a nice core and some cash in return for your working starter. Never hurts to have a core. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chistech Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 I will get back to you. PM me with your email. I know I have an another starter that I believe is good but has a bad drive gear on it so a good drive gear would probably fix that one up. I will definitely pull my current starter out and tr6 what I have first because the last thing either of us wants is more BS!😁 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degeraths Posted July 2, 2023 Author Share Posted July 2, 2023 Just now, chistech said: I will get back to you. PM me with your email. I know I have an another starter that I believe is good but has a bad drive gear on it so a good drive gear would probably fix that one up. I will definitely pull my current starter out and tr6 what I have first because the last thing either of us wants is more BS!😁 PM sent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stakeside Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 A good ground is most important. Since I didn’t know the condition of my original starter i decided to have it rebuilt locally. Works fine now even with 6v battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degeraths Posted July 3, 2023 Author Share Posted July 3, 2023 2 hours ago, stakeside said: A good ground is most important. Since I didn’t know the condition of my original starter i decided to have it rebuilt locally. Works fine now even with 6v battery. Nothing wrong with the ground... but this might be part of the problem. Discovered this today when I took the whole thing apart for inspection. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldtech Posted July 5, 2023 Share Posted July 5, 2023 ER... yes, that will do it. The armature drags on the field blocks as it would with worn bushings. It was about to go Bang! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave39MD Posted July 6, 2023 Share Posted July 6, 2023 You may know this but the armature you are looking for is 818002. There are a couple of nos Delco Remy on ebay right now. I have a used one I had checked and the commutator turned and the special screws and locks if you get stuck. Good luck Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zr1artie Posted November 22, 2023 Share Posted November 22, 2023 On 7/1/2023 at 11:02 PM, Degeraths said: Okay, here is the issue the car is having. When trying to start the car I find that the starter is only able to turn the engine over around 1 revolution per 1.5, 2 seconds. This results in the typical cranking one would associate with a nearly dead battery. Fully charging the battery seems to have little to no effect. The battery has been taken to a battery store to be tested and was found to be fine, producing a little over 6v and just a few over 600 CCA's, as per the specs on this battery. The cables are the proper 6v rated and all of the connections, both ground and positive have been properly checked, cleaned and tightened. I have taken the starter apart and cleaned it thoroughly, cleaned connection points and oiled where it needed it. It had no effect on the issue. I removed the spark plugs on the engine and tried the starter and found that it was able to easily spin the engine without the compression pushing back, confirming (thankfully) that my engine was not partially seized. The engine itself was rebuilt not long ago by a previous owner and the compression is quite tight and since this is a straight six, which are notoriously heavy engines for a starter to turn, I suspect the tighter than normal compression coupled with the already heavy turn over might be a struggle for the starter to handle? I was told that this kind of engine really should have a 6v battery with at least 800 CCA's to turn over quickly and consistently, but I will say that this current system seemed to work without much issue with the previous owner, but, he didn't drive the car nearly as often as I do and that added amount of use might have worn both the battery and the charger down a bit? I would be interested to hear your thoughts regarding what you believe could be the issue here. Do you think it is a battery that simply doesn't have the CCA's for the engine? Or do you suspect that the starter motor might be bad? I will also add that when the engine starts it runs EXTREMELY well and has no mechanical issues that would result in a problem starting. The problem is that the starter is simply unable to turn the engine over fast enough for reliable starting before it dies completely and is unable to even turn the engine over at all. Even with the battery fully charged I get perhaps 5 to 10 slow revolutions before it stops all together and is unable to crank the engine again. Thoughts? Hello, I use a 12volt battery on my 30 Chevy truck and it works excellent. Maybe do that?my cell is 8125521363...art Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcticbuicks Posted November 22, 2023 Share Posted November 22, 2023 i think the thick battery cables are important on those 6 volts also .......have seen people change cables of smaller diameter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted November 22, 2023 Share Posted November 22, 2023 It looks like he found the problem in the starter. But for completeness since this question comes up once month: 1. Check the ground. Is it 100% clean and making contact? 2 Check the batter terminal connections. Are they 100% clean and making contact? 3. Check the cable gauge. Are you running 12v cables or do you have an extra 6' of cable that is unnecessary (Ed and I have seen that last thing). If you are sure 1-3 are fine. It is the starter. Probably. If you are having to use an 8V or 12V battery then something is definitely wrong. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demco32 Posted November 22, 2023 Share Posted November 22, 2023 1 hour ago, arcticbuicks said: i think the thick battery cables are important on those 6 volts also .......have seen people change cables of smaller diameter 6volt use more amps so you need thicker cable 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcticbuicks Posted November 22, 2023 Share Posted November 22, 2023 yes.....i have seen a few cars where people just went and replaced with 12 volt auto parts store cables .......not knowing 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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