31nash880 Posted February 14, 2023 Share Posted February 14, 2023 Working on a 1931 Nash 880. Did not ask first and basically destroyed the bellows in a Pines automatic winter front grill. Found an old thread low in listing that never came to conclusion. Wondering if anyone has ideas on what to do. Made of brass. How does it work? Does it need to be sealed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted February 14, 2023 Share Posted February 14, 2023 Not too long ago you could buy new ones through classic and exotic. Not sure if they are still selling them. Brian, Joseph more or less retired a few years ago and has been selling the stock off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted February 14, 2023 Share Posted February 14, 2023 The sale of Pines Winter fronts for 1932 Fords have allowed several people to BUY 1932 Fords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 That is a type of thermostat and yes it needs to be sealed. It is filled with alcohol or ether or similar substance. When it gets hot the liquid boils and expands the bellows, opening the shutters. When it gets cold it contracts, closing the shutters. Air cooled VW (beetle etc) use the same type of thermostat. I don't know if replacements are available. Worst case, you could set up your Winterfront for manual operation. Or hang it on the wall for a decoration. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Shaw Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 Downloaded years ago: These are fairly easy to repair. Perform an air leak-down test using 5-10 pounds of air. If necessary, solder the repair which is usually a crack in the bellows section. When disassembled, use bright light against the suspected section to see the leak area. After soldering together, fill the unit half way (and I mean only half way) with Methyl Alcohol using the "soldered over" fill area in the rear of the unit. You can also replace the soldered fill hole with a machine screw and nylon washer with sealant. Using the machine screw method also makes it easier to perform the leak-down test. Methyl Alcohol is used in some brands of Dry Gas products, so read the labels carefully. I found mine at a local Rite Aid drug store. Do not use Ethyl or Isopropel alcohol. Test the unit in a pot of boiling water before reinstalling. Cost of Solder: $2.50 Cost of Dry Gas: $2.99 Repairing it yourself: Priceless! Note: Heet Gasoline Additive is readily available at auto parts stores: The specific active ingredients of HEET and ISO-HEET are methanol and isopropanol, respectively. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 I don't know if this one can be fixed with all the kinks in the metal. You can see a big gaping hole 2 ridges down from the flange. But, you could try to flatten it out and solder the hole, what have you got to lose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
31nash880 Posted February 16, 2023 Author Share Posted February 16, 2023 For now, have cleaned and reinstalled cover to make everything look correct. Will try to repair but don't hold much hope. Was this a factory installed item? Everything looks that way. What makes used them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted February 16, 2023 Share Posted February 16, 2023 I thought Pines Winterfronts were aftermarket add-ons, I have one for a Pierce. Some photos of your radiator grille would help. Unless you are planning to drive this car in a lot of freezing weather you probably do not need it, IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walt G Posted February 16, 2023 Share Posted February 16, 2023 There is a period photo on here of a 1928 Packard with a Pines winter front. ( under the Restoration projects area where I show photos of the two I restored) I know that many dealers installed them for customers before and after the cars were delivered from the factory. I will check when I have time to see if any are pictured in the manufacturers accessory catalogs when I have the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted February 16, 2023 Share Posted February 16, 2023 They were a popular accessory made by an aftermarket company. In early days cars did not have thermostats. Some expensive cars had thermostatically controlled fins to block the air coming into the radiator. The Pines Winterfront was an accessory that did the same thing. They made different models to fit the radiators of all popular cars. When the manufacturers started putting thermostats in the radiator hose, they became redundant and went out of favor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted February 16, 2023 Share Posted February 16, 2023 3 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said: They were a popular accessory made by an aftermarket company. In early days cars did not have thermostats. Some expensive cars had thermostatically controlled fins to block the air coming into the radiator. The Pines Winterfront was an accessory that did the same thing. They made different models to fit the radiators of all popular cars. When the manufacturers started putting thermostats in the radiator hose, they became redundant and went out of favor. True, but 1924-1927 Pierce-Arrow Series 80 (the junior series) had them as standard equipment, listed under "tools" in the Operation & Care (Owner's) Manual, and with a round medallion depicting the fender-mounted headlight and radiator profile at the top center. A 1928 Series 36 (senior series) originally owned by Marlene Dietrich was displayed at the PAS Meet in 2000 with the *nickeled* Pines Winterfront installed. Those cars had thermostats in the water outlet but no *permanently installed* shutters, which appeared in 1929. The Pierce winterfronts were discarded early, especially in more temperate climates where they were not worth the bother to install and uninstall annually. In the mid-1990s I found a shelf-worn but NOS Pines Winterfront for a Series 80 at Hershey, acquired it inexpensively, and it is a wall-hanger in my shop. I'll try to remember to photograph it for this discussion. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted February 16, 2023 Share Posted February 16, 2023 Here's the promised photo of a Pierce-Arrow Pines Winterfront for 1925-1927 Series 80. I'd need a ladder to take it down for a better photo. Hopefully you can enlarge the photo to see the Pierce-Arrow round brass medallion at the top center. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 Interesting to know they were sold as a factory approved accessory, by the car dealers. In those days there were few options built in at the factory but many dealer installed accessories. Every car dealer had a show case with mirrors, heaters, radios etc that the dealer could install. I'm sure you know all this but some of the newer members may not be aware of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 So this is basically the same mechanism that was used on factory Duesenburg, Packard, etc factory thermostatically controlled shutters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 1 hour ago, alsancle said: So this is basically the same mechanism that was used on factory Duesenburg, Packard, etc factory thermostatically controlled shutters. These had a far more compact thermostat than the t'stats inserted into a recess in the engine side of the top tank of radiators in 1929 and later Pierces, and also operated on heat transmitted by contact. The difference was the lack of the radiator recess on these Pines units, so the winterfronts' absence when uninstalled gave no indication that they even had been installed. The Pines t'stats touched the *front* of the shell. Mine had remnants of the original box which I examined for indications of Pines and/or Pierce markings (there were none) before discarding. I suspect that cars were delivered with the Pines still in the box--except perhaps for winter delivery in cold climates. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
31nash880 Posted February 18, 2023 Author Share Posted February 18, 2023 Have posted a few pics of the winterfront on my 1931 Nash. It appears to be factory installed. Everything on front is formed to the radiator shell. Linkage would require a new radiator top. If an option, interesting it is on a car from California. Also found a thread from 2016 in Buick section discussing winterfront bellows. They bring up the name of Jim Otto. He rebuilt these. Does anyone know if he is still around? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted February 18, 2023 Share Posted February 18, 2023 (edited) The components on your car are indeed factory installed and permanent "shutters," and are activated by the t'stat in the housing on the engine side of the radiator. Pierce adopted a similar but not identical system beginning in 1929 as I mentioned and continuing through their end in 1938. Cadillac used a similar shutter system through 1941, at least. For myself, at least, I think of "winterfronts" as seasonal additions whose t'stats (if used) are on the front side of the radiator within the removable sheet metal. Some winterfronts were merely canvas to cover part of the front radiator opening, and were manually adjusted. As on Pierce and Cadillac, your system is *the* thermostat for the cooling system 24/7/365. Jim Otto in Nashville (IIRC) restored these units until a few years ago (and may still be doing it in his mid-80s). He was retired from Honeywell, which had gobbled up the OEM maker Fulton Sylphon decades ago. Scott Henningsen of Henningsen Machine in Spreckels, CA (near Salinas) is a well-known restorer of Pebble Beach cars and rebuilds at least some and may be reproducing some of the variants. I bought two Pierce units from him about four years ago. His email is scotthenningsen (at) aol.com and his phone is 831-595-6205. He's a great guy! I suggest you measure dimensions before you consult with him. A cheaper alternative (because these units are about $300) is to purchase an inline (i.e., inserted in the top radiator hose) 160* t'stat from Restoration Supply restorationstuff.com which has an online catalog. In this case you'd have to wire the shutters open and/or remove the strong spring which tries to keep the shutters closed--one or the other may have already been done. OR, in your case, you may be able to machine a recess in the water outlet to accept a modern pellet-style t'stat. If the outlet will accept a 2.5" flange, the Gates number you want is 33036S (the S is super-stat, meaning higher flow), but definitely 160* and drill a 1/4" hole through the flange to allow some circulation and escape of air. I have used that Gates number on a car whose t'stat housing had been buggered. If your water neck opening is smaller, download the Gates t'stat catalog and look for a 160*F stat with an appropriate flange diameter. As you've figured out by now, you can't find a damn thing by asking for parts for a 1931 Nash! Love what you're doing, keep up the great work! Edited February 18, 2023 by Grimy fix typo, twice! (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted February 18, 2023 Share Posted February 18, 2023 (edited) It’s a standard type “large” universal thermostat used by Harrison Radiator and others. The thermostat is a universal fit, the cover and linkage are car specific. I bought a new thermostat yesterday. They rebuild them, although yours may not be a good core after you pulled it apart. Edited February 18, 2023 by edinmass (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
31nash880 Posted February 18, 2023 Author Share Posted February 18, 2023 You guys are the greatest! This whole car has been an adventure but this site makes it worth the effort. Still wondering why Nash does not have the following of other makes. As I learn more this seems to be a very well made car. Thanks for all input Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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