Possibly looking for a flat straight 8

[SC38dls]

Hi guys, 

I gotten an idea in my head to look for a flat 8 cyl that can be put in my 1938 State Commander. The six runs great so this is not something I have to do to get it on the road. I’m thinking about it because it’s my daily driver and I’m thinking the 8 would do better on highways than the 6 currently does. One or two requirements would be it has to mate up to my current three speed transmission and it would have to be a complete engine. Exhaust and intake, carb, starter, oil filter and generator unless the ones from the six would match up. I could have it machined and valves done plus I could do rings and bearings the usual rebuild stuff. Does anyone think it would fit first of all and second any idea of what one would cost?  Again I’m just toying with the idea but it might be a fun project I could do and still drive the car until it’s ready to install. What do you think? 
dave s 

Edited January 31, 2023 by SC38dls (see edit history)

[George Rohrbach]

6's = relatively easy to get repair parts.

8's = real hard!

[SC38dls]

Thanks George. That was something I didn’t think about as I have been able to get all the parts I need for the 6 cylinder. I assumed the 8 would be the same. I’ll show you the oil breather cap you provided when I drive it back up to Hershey in October. 
dave s 

Edited January 31, 2023 by SC38dls (see edit history)

[rbk]

The front fenders are longer so an 8 cylinder engine won't fit

[SC38dls]

RBK, I thought of the engine being longer but there is a lot of room in a President with the longer fenders and some room in the commander. I was hoping it might be a tight fit but was not sure. So are you guessing or do you have actual measurements that would make this discussion dead? Thanks

dave s 

Edited January 31, 2023 by SC38dls (see edit history)

[Gary_Ash]

The straight 8 engine is 250 cu in.  A later Commander 6 engine is 245 cu in, bolts right in.  The 245 six was used in trucks through 1960, had 118 hp in 1960 vs. your 90 hp, should be easy to find one and parts more available.  The 1941 President 8 was rated at 117 hp, so no gain over the 245 six.  The straight 8 would be heavier, so you might need new springs and other parts.  You do not want an engineering project that will take your car off the road for a year or more! 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Gary_Ash (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

Gary, thank you. The exact reason I posted this here as I felt people with a lot more knowledge on these great cars would give me good advice. The small gain does not seem worth the changes to make it run as well as it does now. I guess the best solution is to just smile big and wave to people in car’s passing me on the highway and limit that driving as much as possible. 
dave s 

[Gary_Ash]

My 1941 Commander with overdrive can cruise at 60-65 comfortably - and even faster if I don't pay attention.  We've driven from Mass. to Ohio for meets, did the Mid-Ohio track with other cars all with the 226 cu in six.  We might not win any drag races, but we can keep up with traffic.

 

Our 1941 Commander with 226 cu in flathead six.

 

Leading the Avantis through the course at Mid-Ohio (LOL).

 

 

[SC38dls]

Gary that’s funny you mention driving on the track. There was a show at the Indy 500 track a few years back. I took the 38 only because we got to drive the track after the show. I was the only prewar there so waited to be the last car. They had a lead and trail car for safety. I was on the track with muscle cars of every type and exotic foreign cars. After the first lap I was falling behind. By the 10 lap I was more than a half lap behind. As I came out of the third turn a Porsche was stopped in the middle of turn four. I thought I was going to pass a turbo Porsche on the Indy track! I got within 200-300 feet of him the driver stuck his hand out the window and waved bye bye. He was gone in a flash. At the end they gave me an award for being the only car that never lifted. By the last lap they were all behind me even the lead safety car. LOL 

dave s 

Edited February 1, 2023 by SC38dls (see edit history)

[Studebaker1965]

We have a number of straight 8 blocks available in our parts inventory right now.  I don’t know much about the condition, but they are saved.  I’ve toyed with the idea of rebuilding one just to have it around.

 

Nate

[Axial_Flow]

6 hours ago, Studebaker1965 said:

We have a number of straight 8 blocks available in our parts inventory right now.  I don’t know much about the condition, but they are saved.  I’ve toyed with the idea of rebuilding one just to have it around.

 

Nate

I am not sure where you are located, but I would be interested in any late 250-8 engine parts.

Kind regards

[John DePrey]

I have a 41 president after driving many miles in 41/2 Commanders, including my parents ' sedan that they've had for almost 50 years. The president is smoother with more torque but the Commander has just about as much power and drives a bit more nimbly. It's a cool idea but not much to be gained from the swap, and a lot of us would snap up a running 250 straight 8 for our own president...

[Buffalowed Bill]

If you can find a good running straight eight buy it and pass it on to the multitude of us who own a President(s) that needs an engine. There has not been any bearings or pistons produced in quantity for decades. With the cost of an engine build around $10K I doubt that very many will be saved going forward. To be honest I don't think that a S8 will fit the engine bay of a Commander anyway. 

[SC38dls]

Thanks all. It was just a thought and something to play around with in the garage. My 38 6 runs great. I get about 15 mpg, temp is about 160, oil pressure about 25-30 at idle and 50-60 running when warmed up. The idea for the 8 was just to see if possible to fit and get a little more speed. I never thought the parts would be harder to find than a 6.  The only part I’ve had a problem finding for the commander was a right front fender and the rear wing window rubber. Never did get a fender so fixed mine after a fender bender. I think I found the last wing window rubber available about seven years ago when I redid all of the rubber on the car. Thanks for all the great responses. Maybe it’s time to look for another complete project. Just have to figure out how to tell the wife her car has lost its garage space!  Have fun

dave s 

Edited February 2, 2023 by SC38dls (see edit history)

[mbstude]

If you’re wanting more top end speed, changing the rear axle ratio is the easiest way to do that. The caveat is to not go to too high of a ratio that you end up lugging the engine. 
 

Does your 38 have overdrive? If not, adding an OD trans should be priority number one. 
 

When I had my ‘41 Commander, I installed the complete rear axle assembly from a ‘62 Studebaker pickup truck with a 4.09 gear ratio. It was a direct bolt-in swap, nothing needed to be changed. The only discernible difference was that the overall track width of the truck axle was 2” wider, but there was plenty of room in the fenders for tire clearance.

 

Of course the Commander had a Dana 41 axle, and the truck had a Dana 44 axle. But the external dimensions are the same. Spring mounting plates were in the same location, and the stock ‘41 driveshaft and u-joint was retained. 
 

I don’t remember if the original axle had a 4.55 or 4.88 gear set, but the 4.09 was a nice improvement. At least, if you’re like me and prefer a car with longer legs.
 

Truck Dana 44 installed in the ‘41 Commander:

Truck Dana 44 at the top of the photo. Commander Dana 41 below:

[SC38dls]

I’ve thought of both changing the rear on gears and looking for an overdrive transmission but just thought I would throw the engine swap out there for discussion. Based on all the information I’ve gotten the 6 is a better choice. I’ll start a new thread on the gears and trans after I do my homework. Thanks for responding I never thought of a pickup rear end fitting the commander. I have a friend in Texas that may even have one as he has had a couple as parts trucks in the past for rebuilding his current truck. 
dave s 

[John DePrey]

Matt and I traded notes on rear axles when he did the swap. An earlier c cab axle might be a better fit if you can find one with a low ratio, but it won't be twin traction... NOTE: I measured my 37 CE and the spring perches are not the same as on a 41. Kenny D is using a 4.09 c cab 44 for his 37 CE but will be relocating perches. I don't know whether it's similar on a 38. 

 

The 41 Commanders with overdrive normally came with 4.56 gears, the OD 41 Presidents usually had 4.82s (mine does). A 4.09 on an overdrive car would be a real nice upgrade. 

[John DePrey]

just noticed you said you don't have OD, and although you'd get a bigger change with OD, that 38 trans is kinda different. But I also kinda doubt you will find a c cab axle much lower than 4.09. Good luck!

[SC38dls]

John I’m not sure what gears are in the 38 now. I’ll go out to garage and see if my manuals will tell me. I wonder how hard a 38 OD trans would be to find. I know a lot of parts fit up to 37 then 39 on up. 38 seems to be a forgotten year in a lot of parts dealers catalogs. It will be interesting to figure this all out. I’ve rebuild engines and a couple trans but never touched a differential. May be a new experience worth trying if I can find the right help to show me. 
dave s 

[SC38dls]

It has either 4.55 or 4.82 per the parts book. I would have to see if it has a tag or part number on it. Otherwise I would have to take the rear plate off to see based on the number of teeth. Unless of course there is a way of measuring how far it goes in a gear based on tire size but I have no idea how to do that. 
dave s 

Edited February 4, 2023 by SC38dls (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

Hi all, 

Thanks for the input on the engine, parts, OD, and differential possibilities of changes. It’s made me think more about the way the car currently drives. I’ve put over 9500 miles on it in the last 4 years. It has good oil pressure, h2o temp, gas mileage is ok at around 15 to a gallon. It can do 65-68 if I really need to for short runs and cruise at 58-60 from here to Hershey. At least that’s what I did this last year. I’m going to just keep it the way it is and have fun with it. If I’m on a highway I’ll just smile and give the people a wave. 
Thanks again, have fun, if you are near Aiken SC send me a PM and I’ll buy you a refreshment or two. 
dave s 

[mbstude]

Overdrive would make a big difference - you’d essentially have a 4th gear that would give you a 30% reduction in engine RPM’s. 

The 1938 overdrive trans is one-year-only, but they’re out there. 

 

But if you’re good with it as it is, then by all means, keep driving it.

[SC38dls]

Does anyone have an overdrive 38 transmission?  If so is it for sale and what would the cost be. Shipping may be a problem but doable. 
dave s 

[Gary_Ash]

Wow, Dave, if you don't have overdrive now, adding it would make a huge difference in driving the car.  Some details, though:

1.  As Matt mentioned, the 1938 transmission was one-year only.  The case is sideways to the usual arrangement.  

2.  The bell housing and clutch assembly are the same in 1938 and 1939, so maybe a 1939 transmission would also work IF it's floor shift.  My 1928-40 Parts catalog shows both floor and column shift versions for 1939.  Also, at least the transmission case and front flange for both 1938 Commanders and Presidents are the same, haven't checked the full part number lists, but it seems that both models used the same transmission.

3.  What type of drive shaft do you have?  One with rubber links or one with needle bearing caps?  If you change to the O.D. transmission, the drive shaft will need to be about 8" shorter.  It's possible to convert from rubber links (NLA) to needle bearings. 

[SC38dls]

Gary, my 38 is a floor shift and the drive shaft is needle bearing caps I converted about three years ago when the originals gave out. The overdrive trans sounds like a great solution if I can find one in decent shape. I’ll start checking around. Thanks for your information every bit helps me make a better decision. 
dave s 

[rbk]

The 1938 and early 1939 Commander and President used a T88 transmission that laid sideways as Gary noted.That was done to lower the hump.The problem was that if you did not keep the oil level topped off the front bearing in the transmission would soon fail 

and other lubrication problems caused Studebaker to return to the regular setup later in 1939. Graham also used the T88 for awhile.

You probably have to find a floor section from a later 1939 if you wanted to install a later transmission with a floor shifter. Some 1938 cars came with a dash mounted shifter and some 1939 cars came with column shifters, so it becomes confusing.

You can not simply add an overdrive section to a regular transmission.

 

 

[8E45E]

On 1/31/2023 at 3:01 PM, rbk said:

The front fenders are longer so an 8 cylinder engine won't fit

Yes, you would need to fit up a President front clip.  And it won't line up with the Commander chassis at the front.  

 

If you really want an 8, search for a President.

 

Craig

[SC38dls]

From checking around the transmission with o/d for 38 and early 39 floor shift is a T88-H. Fit both the Commander or President.  All the extra room an 8 needs was in the longer front clip. The transmission were the same unit. I’ve looked at a number of different sources and came up empty. If anyone knows the whereabouts of one for sale please let me know. It would be a good project to rebuild one this spring/summer and get it in and tested before Hershey this year. Otherwise I’ll just have to keep it around 55-60 on the trips. 
dave s 

Edited February 6, 2023 by SC38dls (see edit history)

[SMB]

Just saw this on Ebay.  Running engine.  From a 42  President Skyway.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/304795633525?hash=item46f73c4775:g:GgwAAOSwRo9j4SHc&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAABIEgL2adjrxHSeygETHjYrdlpMKnGqh6eP3TAIi%2B1ESM82PgPxGcSiNvigR4EawldctqjOEUkMJmilqmmnDdlMuP2yp%2FQ0%2BMmq44eb19vGZOSZHQUWfGZFeJAtaQM%2FVbsK6vuGiGy6AQjY86M83w2vLwmQlSjMcihwk105CRzWKI%2FyN2C1V%2Fq1tkuGRl5v0vbfdKy9WczsrFNjZYk4N%2FDmzUelVpHr6jK4ZdCvYAJWgXH06xBatGjbwH6wpVf32IqppvadyGErJK4GmqRoTd7ba%2FfSm2UwF8mJJsfaCkax0kfyHEVU5Cb%2BO6mbk5%2BeaZ%2BkYDG9zDodzpMNUEFDj9DswvCFobE%2BQSgRkQ8gG6tHqCNU9l7tBuuOwtkINPpofIQzg%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR4KLt73FYQ

 

[SC38dls]

Interesting engine but probably won’t fit my commander. Thanks to a fellow forum user I may have a line on a 38 O/D transmission. Time will tell if it is viable. 
dave s 

[Buffalowed Bill]

I was surprised to hear that your 38 didn't have OD. As much as you drive your car you need to give it a try. While not plentiful 38-39 OD's do come up from time to time. Your car is running and driving so you can afford to be patient. In my stable of cars I have a 1939 Commander coupe (no it not a parts car and not for sale either). I agree that the trans on it's side seems a bit unusual but it works fine. I think that the 38 still used the floor shift, however I think you could swap parts to make a 39 trans work. 

 

You have made some worthwhile contacts. Many of us here know one another. The Antique Studebaker group is really a pretty close knit group which transcends geography. Some of us know you from the story of your accident and your reclamation and resurrection of your 38. We'll keep an eye open and let you know when something comes up.  

 

I just had a thought that I think you might find worthy of consideration. Numerous people have swapped the later 245cu" version of the six cylinder engine for the 226 like what is in your car. The newer engine is mostly the same externally, but provides more power and torque then the older engine. I want to make it clear I am in no way advocating the swap, but it's much more doable then trying to shoehorn a straight 8 into your car. 

Edited February 8, 2023 by Buffalowed Bill (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

Bill thank you. I will check around for 245 that could be swapped reasonably. I would guess the motor mounts would be the same and it would open more chances for a n O/D. Early 39’s used the same T88-H O/D as the 38. and had the floor shift. I think the parts for the shifter might be the only difference in the floor shift compared to the column. The dash shifter may have more differences. 
I’ll do some research. Thanks for your offer and comments. I agree it’s a close knit family of good helpful people on the forum. 
dave s 

[rbk]