1941 President revival

[Axial_Flow]

Hello,

 

I am going to start a thread outlining the revival of this car.  Please feel free to offer any advice or guidance along the way.

 

It has been just over a year since we brought this car home. The boys and my Dad have been working hard in the trunk getting the floor cleaned up and the rust stopped. I have not had much of a chance to do any real work on the car besides going over the car, looking up parts, reading the manuals and putting oil down the cylinders.

 

Yesterday I got the car in the air and drained the engine oil , which probably hasn’t been done in a long time. Luckily, the oil was just dirty with no signs of water, coolant , or any large chucks of dirt or metal. Next step will be to drain the rest of the fluids and investigate a moderate leak from overdrive output shaft seal. I also plan on removing the gas tank and get it cleaned out and put back on.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2022 by Axial_Flow (see edit history)

[John DePrey]

Really solid looking Delux-tone Land Cruiser! 7CB-5? My first love when I was 14 was a Commander 11AB-5. It had the similarly flared rocker panels with the kick pads. I believe the tailshaft seal is also common to some postwar T86s. Use GL1 only, available from NAPA in that trans if it's overdrive. I now drive a 41 president Skyway land Cruiser, you'll love it.

[John DePrey]

if changing oil, depending on known vs unknown history, be real careful about using detergent oils. Our 41 president hasn't been opened up and uses non detergent oil so that the up to 81 year engine sludge doesn't break loose and score up the crank and rod bearings... it has great oil pressure and i plan to keep it that way. this could be another whole forum so go research it, again NAPA for nondetergent 30 or 20 wt. Proceed with caution and extra filters if you drive ahead with regular oil, flush often, note the filter doesn't keep dirt out of the bearings. 

[John DePrey]

also check and clean the oil pressure relief valve, if sticky or clogged you risk damage to the timing gear. Shop manual covers it well, I check and clean mine every time I change oil. 

[Axial_Flow]

John, thank you for your feedback.

 

Yes, mine is a 7CB5.  This car came from California before it was on the East Coast.  The body is in excellent condition.  There are only a few rust holes in the truck due to water sitting in the floor due to the drain holes being clogged and the trunk seals bad allowing the water to enter.  There is no other rust through in the car.

 

I was reading the shop manual and it says to use non-high pressure lube for the overdrive unit (which mine has), I assume this is the GL1 type lube, but does the 3 speed section need GL1 or can GL5 be used?

 

I did plan on removing the engine oil pressure relief valve checking its operation.  Are you able to remove the valve without disturbing the pressure setting?  Per the service manual, the 8 cylinder engine has an adjustable pressure relief valve.

 

Kind regards, 

[John DePrey]

gear oil can move between units so use GL1 in both the transmission and OD.  

 

The valve consists of a plunger, spring, screw in cap, and its seal washer. There's nothing to adjust that I'm aware of... unless internal to the passage. I've had the 41 one out 3 times in the 5 years I've owned it... dang, now I'm gonna have to look at the manual... 

the shop manual is pretty good. 

 

 

[studeboy]

My 1940 commander has an adjustable oil pressure relief valve as per the service manual. Post war they made these non adjustable.

[John DePrey]

lol yup it's adjustable. My socket marks are on the lock nut, I never even look at that as my focus is on the plunger, ensuring the little hole is clean and clear. 

 

my lock nut appears to be well stuck to the cap bolt, if you are concerned about affecting adjustment draw a sharpie across both before you break the lock nut loose. I bet they move together. 

[nvonada]

This is what was in my pan after 60+ years of non-detergent oil:

After cleaning it up I have run detergent oil ever since.   Being able to run multi-weight oil is nice, it does not turn to tar when it gets cold.  

Nathan

[studerex]

As Nathan said, I would drop the pan on all motors and clean it out.  You won't be sorry. 

[Axial_Flow]

Do you guys have any advice on removing the pan?  The clearance looks pretty tight near the front cross member.  With the drain plug out, from what I could tell the pan looked fairly clean, I honestly thought about not dropping the pan and perform a few oil changes once the engine is running.  Maybe this is a poor strategy? 

[Buffalowed Bill]

I respectfully disagree with John's caution regarding detergent oil. I've written forum responses more then once regarding an in-depth pamphlet put out by Valvoline regarding the use of detergent oil in older cars. I'm not going to detail what was involved but the upshot was that detergent oil would not damage an engine nor remove a false dam that was caused by years of use. When detergent oil came on the market after WWll advertising people jumped on the cleaning ability of detergents to sell product. The pamphlet indicated that while the term detergent may have worked to sell product it completely misrepresented what the new oil actually did. They said that a more apt term would have been dispersant or a suspender. It actually just held in suspension the harmful stuff that had heretofore settled out and created sludge in the pan and other low spots. Regular oil changes removes the sludge causing water, acid and hydrocarbons. 

 

While I agree with Rex that dropping the pan is a worthwhile job, for many of us it is just not feasible. I have a number of original cars that have never had their pan dropped and in all of which I use detergent oil. An engine is either a good engine or it isn't.      

Edited November 16, 2022 by Buffalowed Bill (see edit history)

[John DePrey]

thanks Bill but if as you say, ". It actually just held in suspension the harmful stuff that had heretofore settled out and created sludge in the pan and other low spots..." wouldn't the detergent oil pick up and then allow the harmful stuff from that sludge to get pumped right into the main and rod bearings? With the partial flow filter systems you can't count on the filter to take it out. 

When Ken M sold me the car he passed along his late dad Jerry's caution on detergents in non-detergent engines, I guess I'm a little reluctant to roll the bones and use detergent oil, even with the pan cleaned out. Lots of other places for the 80 year old sludge to lurk. I'm eager to learn tho. 

[Buffalowed Bill]

John I just related what Valvoline stated. The oil filter is supposed to take care of the larger particles. The smaller particles held in suspension are supposed to be small enough that they don't alter the lubricating properties of the oil. I'm pretty sure that most people reading this don't have the ability to do the lab testing necessary to come to the conclusion that Valvoline has. For me it's simple I trust that if Valvoline thinks that it's important enough to make available in print, it's important enough to pass on. To each his own. 

[Bloo]

That is exactly right. Full flow oil filters don't really take the bad stuff out. You change oil to get the bad stuff out. Full flow filters are not intended to catch the smallest particles. If they did, they would plug in a very short period of time. It is more important that some oil get through. Full flow oil filters will bypass when they are plugged and when the oil is cold, but then they aren't filtering at all. Their main purpose it to keep large trash out that would embed in the bearings and shorten their life. Over time this has proved to be a good idea for engine life, but it is far from perfect.

 

If you want to remove the tiniest trash from oil, a partial flow filter is the way to do it. Since they cannot stop the oil supply to the engine, extremely tight filter media can be used to trap extremely tiny particles. I don't have the statistics handy, but all the oil in the engine goes through the filter in a shorter time than you would think. They really do help clean up the oil, as opposed to a full flow whose main job is to keep larger particles from becoming embedded in the bearings. Partial flow filters are no panacea though either. I doubt they remove all the acid for instance. Probably not all the water either. My guess would be they catch mostly soot and worn metal. They aren't used on any modern cars that I am aware of. Changing the oil is still what really matters.

 

 

Edited November 24, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Grimy]

Filters catch particulate matter, but as @Bloo says, have no effect on liquid contaminants such as acids and water.  To remove the latter, drain the oil at least once every 12-15 months HOT, irrespective of how many miles driven.

 

For @John DePrey, I'm reposting (posted earlier today in a thread on a 1938 Fiat IIRC) photos of "crank turds" being removed from a crankshaft that had been run on non-detergent oil exclusively.  With non-detergent, debris settles out not only in the oil pan as depicted above, but also in all oil passages in the engine, including the crankshaft.  detergent oil keeps solid contaminants in suspension, so that those in the small amounts of oil in the oil galleries during today's oil change will come out in the next oil change.

 

Another reason to change oil every 12-15 months is that additives are depleted by oxidation over time as well as by miles.

[Gary_Ash]

@Bloo pointed out the ability of partial flow filters to continuously clean the oil.  I did some tests, measurements, and calculations some years ago on oil flow through the partial flow filter in my 1948 Studebaker M5 truck.  Using 10W-30 oil as a reference, its viscosity at 212 °F (100 °C) is about the same as water at room temperature.  So, I hooked up my garden hose with pressure gauge and some pipe fittings and measured the water flow through an oil filter orifice at 30 psig.  I got about 1.5 quarts per minute through an 0.060" orifice.  The positive displacement gear pump puts out a lot more oil than that at cruise speed so there is plenty of oil left for lubricating parts.  Using some theory about fluid flow through orifices, I then calculated the flow for different size orifices over a range of pressures.  From that, I calculated how fast oil would clean up from a 6 quart sump at 1.5 quarts per minute filter flow when using a filter that would trap 90% of particles of given size.  It indicated that in 10 minutes of operation, 90% of the particles in the oil would be removed, and 99% in 20 minutes, etc.  Modern filters are 90-95% efficient for particles in the 10-20 micron size (0.001 inch = 25.4 microns) but they also trap smaller particles eventually.  Conclusion:  even a partial flow filter will keep the oil clean and catch most particles of dangerous size pretty quickly.  And, the oil is clean the next time the engine is started.  QED.

 

Oil flow through a filter orifice at various pressures.

 

How the oil is cleaned as a function of time.

 

 

[John DePrey]

Thanks folks, good dialog. The acids, water etc I understand, it's why I strive to change oil yearly on all my engines. And yes partial flow filters can filter small particulate quite well in a "steady state" system, but the crank bearings get far more oil directly from the sump. If any sludge does break loose (not a steady state) where does it go? (Found a pic online awhile back about the turds being what you get if you DO switch over... lol)

I'm 100% sold on detergent oil use in an engine that starts out even relatively clean, but haven't yet been convinced that it's a good idea in an engine with 80 years of sludge deposits in it. So maybe I can switch, but I'm not at "should" yet. 

[Grimy]

7 minutes ago, John DePrey said:

I'm 100% sold on detergent oil use in an engine that starts out even relatively clean, but haven't yet been convinced that it's a good idea in an engine with 80 years of sludge deposits in it. So maybe I can switch, but I'm not at "should" ye

John, in 1994 I acquired a 1925 Pierce 80 that had not run in 10 years due to owner illness, yet was running when I bought it.  It had been on a diet of non-detergent oil since 1956 and was well-worn but ran well.  I cleaned out the oil pan, oil pump, and the copper distribution lines to the seven main bearings, checked a couple of bearing clearances which were acceptable (didn't do more because there were no engine noises).  I decided to wean this engine off non-detergent oil.  To that end, I changed oil hot to 3 qts detergent, 6 non-detergent (total of 9 in the system), ran 300 miles and drained again.  This time I used 6 detergent and 3 non-detergent, ran another 300 miles, and changed to full detergent.  I examined the drained oil carefully and detected no debris in drained oil beyond the initial change.  The oil darkened quickly as I would expect on those L-head engines, but there were no chunks perceptible (didn't subject them to a microscope or oil analysis).

 

I've read that in the early 1950s, these new oils would/could turn loose deposits, but have seen no reports of that in the last 50 years.

[Axial_Flow]

Hello all,

 

It has been a month since my last post and I wanted to update the group, but between Thanksgiving and a two week work trip, not a lot of progress has been made.

 

The topic of removing the engine oil pan has been bouncing around my thoughts for the last month, weighing the pros and cons.  I have come to the conclusion that I do intend on removing the oil pan.  With the car up on the lift, there really is not a good reason not perform this service.

 

 

With the car up on the lift, I am working on the following repairs:

• New transmission output shaft seal
  • Drained and flushed main gearbox & OD section
  • New seal received, not installed yet
• Removed driveshaft to perform the above repair
  • New U-joints received, not installed yet
  • Wire brushing and prepping for new paint
  • Need to polish slip joint yoke
• Removed rear axle input yoke to facilitate new seal
  • Removed seal
  • Drained fluid
  • Remove rear axle cover
  • Flushed old fluid
  • New seal received, not installed
  • Need to polish input yoke
• Started to remove fuel tank so it can be drained and flushed
  • Not planning on sealing tank unless large amount of rust is found

In the next few weeks I plan on reassembling what is currently taken apart and refilling the transmission and rear axle.  Finish removing the fuel tank and removing and cleaning the engine oil pan.

 

My oldest son (6 yo) is a very hard working young man and is already very much involved in the antique/classic car hobby.  He loves to help whenever he can and he is eager to learn.  He can be seen below wire brushing the driveshaft.  An old boat trailer made a great work station to hold the work piece stationary.  My son and his younger brother will be the 4th generation in our family to be involved in our hobby.  We have the great honor of owning two cars that were owned by my Grandfather (`22 Model 'T' & `27 Chevrolet).  With a lot of talk about young people not interested in prewar cars, myself and my kids prove that wrong and breathe new life into our hobby for the future.

 

Alright, enough ramblings.......back to the `41 President.  I need to source some GL1 gear lube for the transmission, I believe my local Napa can get the oil I need.  The rear axle takes "regular" GL5 90, which I have plenty on hand.

 

At some point I wanted to paint the undercarriage, what color would have been correct for this car?  First component to be painted will be the driveshaft.

 

Below are some pictures to support the text above.  Again, thank you for your comments and advice, I appreciate all of it.  Kind regards

 

 

 

 

 

[willys54]

Great to see the young future 'Gearheads' involved in the resto. Keep us updated as you progress.

[Buffalowed Bill]

Just curious, any feedback on the engine condition? Is it free? does it seem to have compression? The reason I'm asking is that the engine may be the biggest stumbling block to your roadworthy project. There are scant few internal parts available for this car. I have two 41 Presidents, as well as two 37's and I can vouch for how hard bearings are to find. Expect also to have to have pistons made. Egge doesn't carry them so custom made by Arias or another manufacturer, the name of whom escapes me. 

 

Did I mention that I think that I recognize the car, is it from NJ? I kind of halfheartedly tried to buy it. Just as well that the owner wasn't interested in selling to me. I need another car like... anyway good luck! 

Bill

[Axial_Flow]

@Buffalowed Bill  This car was running and driving not all that long ago, it still has a Hershey 2004 sticker on the windshield.  The engine is free and does appear to have compression, however, I have not installed a battery and attempted to spin it over yet.  I am waiting to pull the oil pan and inspect what I can with the pan off before I install a battery.  Time will tell what it needs.  I recently had Ross make pistons for a 1920 Studebaker Special Six I am working on concurrently.  I am really hoping I do not have to go down that road, but prepared if I need to (fingers crossed!).

 

Yes, this car came from NJ but originally spent most of its time in California.  I believe you mentioned before wanting to purchase the car.  Thank you for your comments.

Edited December 19, 2022 by Axial_Flow (see edit history)

[nvonada]

Nice progress!  NAPA does stock GL-1 gear lube, but they might not know it.  Ask for part number 65-201 for a gallon container.  When you have the tank out you may want to flush the fuel line as well.  I got a LOT of gunk out of mine just hosing carb cleaner in the line and blowing it out with compressed air.  If you tank (or line) rust, you will get a lot of rust in the sediment bowl of the fuel pump.  

 

Nathan

[studerex]

By chance is this cars serial number 7140962?  If so than I know some of its history.  Looks like the same car.  Has the speedometer show about 38000?

Edited December 19, 2022 by studerex (see edit history)

[studerex]

I think this is your car.  I should have bought it when at hershey.  December 1985 in special interest autos magazine.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/403978727309?hash=item5e0f022f8d:g:sKQAAOSwCQpjZujL&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAsGKHt6Jp4vpfVk63MSqfN1I9neyDkZCTFQxvmKEk2K3DZ4x4zTaMS0tc8LqjbuvCpoOVXy8PzTiJAyDDrPCsg7iv4XE4cRKwUNwIghOiE4vvnyCqRBzZZFbdRSstCd27pl1Uewu%2FCavWQU4bsw1zuUKpEZai%2FX8ZkG1lGut7gQ9BvsqxTOWybdwQ4v%2BDFPMI5iJnp3JxusTKTCsKamY5tr%2B4kWXeoYVlz4EkxfcsN%2BIX|tkp%3ABk9SR5yq0ralYQ

Edited December 19, 2022 by studerex (see edit history)

[studerex]

At Hershey 2004.  I have often thought about chasing this car down and buying it.  You got a good car.  Just not stored well.

Edited December 19, 2022 by studerex (see edit history)

[Axial_Flow]

@studerex  Yes! That is the same car.  Unbelievable how good 'she' looked back in 2004.  From a little testing, I think the paint will come back.  Do you know how much of the car is original?  I sorta made the assumption the paint was, but not sure about the rest of the car.

 

Please feel free to PM me any details you wish to share about the car.  I would like to learn anything I can about it.

[Gary_Ash]

Just in case you do need pistons, Ross made a set for Kim Eastman some years ago for his #34 American Twist Drill Special Studebaker Indy car (1936).  The parts book says the aluminum pistons fit 1934-42 Presidents.  When my 1937 President engine was rebuilt by Jerry Kurtz in 2019, he knurled the pistons to take up a small amount of wear.  I have the factory drawings for the pistons, assume Ross has them, too.  

 

Main bearings for an undersize crank will be difficult to find, standard size ones only a little easier.  The alternate solution is to have old bearings rebabbitted and line bore the block with the bearings installed.  Cross your fingers that you don't need pistons or bearings.

[studerex]

3 hours ago, Axial_Flow said:

@studerex  Yes! That is the same car.  Unbelievable how good 'she' looked back in 2004.  From a little testing, I think the paint will come back.  Do you know how much of the car is original?  I sorta made the assumption the paint was, but not sure about the rest of the car.

 

Please feel free to PM me any details you wish to share about the car.  I would like to learn anything I can about it.

I believe the car is all original.  Motor should be fine, just clean it up before starting.  Buy that issue of SIA december 1985 where your car was used for the drive report.   Dick Quinn might have more details of the cars history.  He was close friends of one of the prior owners. 

 

[Buffalowed Bill]

Congratulations it seems to be the same car. I'm certainly glad that it has recently run. I was worried about the car when it first showed up on line. It seemed that the owner didn't know much about it and needed some guidance. He seemed to be having a hard time deciding what to do with it. That's when I told him that if he decided to sell to get in touch with me. I'm honestly glad that someone knowledgeable got the car so I didn't have to move it across  country, and then make room in the shop building. It's funny no matter hatter how many cars that I have, when something this special shows up, I can always find room for just one more. I'm really surprised that Rex let this one get away.

[studerex]

13 minutes ago, Buffalowed Bill said:

Congratulations it seems to be the same car. I'm certainly glad that it has recently run. I was worried about the car when it first showed up on line. It seemed that the owner didn't know much about it and needed some guidance. He seemed to be having a hard time deciding what to do with it. That's when I told him that if he decided to sell to get in touch with me. I'm honestly glad that someone knowledgeable got the car so I didn't have to move it across  country, and then make room in the shop building. It's funny no matter hatter how many cars that I have, when something this special shows up, I can always find room for just one more. I'm really surprised that Rex let this one get away.

This was too much for me in 2004.

Edited December 20, 2022 by studerex (see edit history)

[John DePrey]

On 12/19/2022 at 2:09 PM, studerex said:

I believe the car is all original.  Motor should be fine, just clean it up before starting.  Buy that issue of SIA december 1985 where your car was used for the drive report.   Dick Quinn might have more details of the cars history.  He was close friends of one of the prior owners. 

 

I have a copy of that drive report! PM me for a scanned copy...  

[Axial_Flow]

Hello all,

 

Short update

 

Prepped the driveshaft for painting and managed to get it painted after taking way too long getting it cleaned and ready for paint.

 

My process for painting the driveshaft was:

 

-Disassemble

-Wirewheel/wire brush any loose rust

-Degrease (several times)

-Apply POR15 metal ready

-Let dry completely 

-Apply two coats of POR15 gloss black

-When still 'tacky' apply 3 light coats of Rust-Oleum satin black

 

I don't have pictures of the painted driveshaft, I'll snap one when it is installed.

 

Here is it after metal ready and masking.

 

I got the rear axle all cleaned up inside and ready to put back together.  Got the input yoke polished up, not perfect, but should be fine for what I will be using the car for.

 

I had to make a pinion seal installer.  Found a piece of exhaust pipe nearly perfect OD.  Found a heavy flat washer for something to pound on and welded it into place.

 

Don't forget the oil slinger/shield first.

New pinion seal installed.  Large deadblow and "special tool" worked well.

 

Not pictured is the installed yoke secured with the castle nut and cotter pin.

 

I used Permatex #2 to adhere the gasket to the rear axle cover.  I then greased up the opposite side of the gasket and installed the cover.  I put a little blue Loctite on the bolts to help seal out moisture since the bolt holes are open in the front of the housing.

 

 

Not much progress besides that.

 

I plan on installing the new U-joints into the driveshaft, install the new transmission output shaft seal, and then get the driveshaft installed.  Fill both the rear axle and transmission & OD with their respected fluids and move on to the next item.

 

Happy New Year,

 

Randy

[studerex]

Curious about the seal number you're using.  A seal lip is usually toward the oil.  It looks to be pointing out.

[Axial_Flow]

15 minutes ago, studerex said:

Curious about the seal number you're using.  A seal lip is usually toward the oil.  It looks to be pointing out.

I am using seal 199379X1.

 

What you are seeing sticking out is the wiper portion of the seal that ends up going inside the metal 'cup' (see the red arrow below).

 

The "normal" lip is facing into differential.

[John DePrey]

I noticed the rear axle shock link bracket (part of the shackle plate) points upward instead of down, which is how my President and mom's Commander and at least one prior 41 Commander are built, but sure enough the chassis manual shows it like yours... (1522-5A)

cool I learned something new today. 

 

By the way I've fitted both cars with tubular Gabriel shocks in the rear, for a vastly improved ride, however if my shackle plates weren't upside down that job would be harder. That's why it caught my eye!

[Axial_Flow]

Hey John 

Interesting observation about the lower shock mount plate.  I intend on keeping this car as close to original as possible, but I would be interested how you mounted a modern type tubular shock.

[studerex]

When looking at the 2 photos you posted of the front side of differential, the seal looks flush on the early photo and recessed or reversed in later photo. 

[Axial_Flow]

Rex, I think the old seal was original or similar to original.  It had a felt wiper seal on the exterior side of the seal and it uses a thin paper gasket on the inside to seal it against the differential housing.  The new seal I used is an updated version which fits the older Dana 41s and 44s.  The new seal is impossible to install backwards, as the reversed orientation OD is larger than the seal bore ID.  The new seal is also coated with sealer making the gasket unnecessary.  I’m hoping it works well for this application.  I appreciate your comments.

Kind regards,