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1941 President revival


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Hello,

 

I am going to start a thread outlining the revival of this car.  Please feel free to offer any advice or guidance along the way.

 

It has been just over a year since we brought this car home. The boys and my Dad have been working hard in the trunk getting the floor cleaned up and the rust stopped. I have not had much of a chance to do any real work on the car besides going over the car, looking up parts, reading the manuals and putting oil down the cylinders.

 

Yesterday I got the car in the air and drained the engine oil , which probably hasn’t been done in a long time. Luckily, the oil was just dirty with no signs of water, coolant , or any large chucks of dirt or metal. Next step will be to drain the rest of the fluids and investigate a moderate leak from overdrive output shaft seal. I also plan on removing the gas tank and get it cleaned out and put back on.

 

May be an image of car

 

May be an image of car

 

 

 

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Really solid looking Delux-tone Land Cruiser! 7CB-5? My first love when I was 14 was a Commander 11AB-5. It had the similarly flared rocker panels with the kick pads. I believe the tailshaft seal is also common to some postwar T86s. Use GL1 only, available from NAPA in that trans if it's overdrive. I now drive a 41 president Skyway land Cruiser, you'll love it.

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if changing oil, depending on known vs unknown history, be real careful about using detergent oils. Our 41 president hasn't been opened up and uses non detergent oil so that the up to 81 year engine sludge doesn't break loose and score up the crank and rod bearings... it has great oil pressure and i plan to keep it that way. this could be another whole forum so go research it, again NAPA for nondetergent 30 or 20 wt. Proceed with caution and extra filters if you drive ahead with regular oil, flush often, note the filter doesn't keep dirt out of the bearings. 

20221006_151812.jpg

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John, thank you for your feedback.

 

Yes, mine is a 7CB5.  This car came from California before it was on the East Coast.  The body is in excellent condition.  There are only a few rust holes in the truck due to water sitting in the floor due to the drain holes being clogged and the trunk seals bad allowing the water to enter.  There is no other rust through in the car.

 

I was reading the shop manual and it says to use non-high pressure lube for the overdrive unit (which mine has), I assume this is the GL1 type lube, but does the 3 speed section need GL1 or can GL5 be used?

 

I did plan on removing the engine oil pressure relief valve checking its operation.  Are you able to remove the valve without disturbing the pressure setting?  Per the service manual, the 8 cylinder engine has an adjustable pressure relief valve.

 

Kind regards, 

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gear oil can move between units so use GL1 in both the transmission and OD.  

 

The valve consists of a plunger, spring, screw in cap, and its seal washer. There's nothing to adjust that I'm aware of... unless internal to the passage. I've had the 41 one out 3 times in the 5 years I've owned it... dang, now I'm gonna have to look at the manual... 

the shop manual is pretty good. 

 

 

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lol yup it's adjustable. My socket marks are on the lock nut, I never even look at that as my focus is on the plunger, ensuring the little hole is clean and clear. 

 

my lock nut appears to be well stuck to the cap bolt, if you are concerned about affecting adjustment draw a sharpie across both before you break the lock nut loose. I bet they move together. 

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This is what was in my pan after 60+ years of non-detergent oil:

VT_20090516_3780.JPG

After cleaning it up I have run detergent oil ever since.   Being able to run multi-weight oil is nice, it does not turn to tar when it gets cold.  

Nathan

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Do you guys have any advice on removing the pan?  The clearance looks pretty tight near the front cross member.  With the drain plug out, from what I could tell the pan looked fairly clean, I honestly thought about not dropping the pan and perform a few oil changes once the engine is running.  Maybe this is a poor strategy? 

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I respectfully disagree with John's caution regarding detergent oil. I've written forum responses more then once regarding an in-depth pamphlet put out by Valvoline regarding the use of detergent oil in older cars. I'm not going to detail what was involved but the upshot was that detergent oil would not damage an engine nor remove a false dam that was caused by years of use. When detergent oil came on the market after WWll advertising people jumped on the cleaning ability of detergents to sell product. The pamphlet indicated that while the term detergent may have worked to sell product it completely misrepresented what the new oil actually did. They said that a more apt term would have been dispersant or a suspender. It actually just held in suspension the harmful stuff that had heretofore settled out and created sludge in the pan and other low spots. Regular oil changes removes the sludge causing water, acid and hydrocarbons. 

 

While I agree with Rex that dropping the pan is a worthwhile job, for many of us it is just not feasible. I have a number of original cars that have never had their pan dropped and in all of which I use detergent oil. An engine is either a good engine or it isn't.      

Edited by Buffalowed Bill (see edit history)
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thanks Bill but if as you say, ". It actually just held in suspension the harmful stuff that had heretofore settled out and created sludge in the pan and other low spots..." wouldn't the detergent oil pick up and then allow the harmful stuff from that sludge to get pumped right into the main and rod bearings? With the partial flow filter systems you can't count on the filter to take it out. 

When Ken M sold me the car he passed along his late dad Jerry's caution on detergents in non-detergent engines, I guess I'm a little reluctant to roll the bones and use detergent oil, even with the pan cleaned out. Lots of other places for the 80 year old sludge to lurk. I'm eager to learn tho. 

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John I just related what Valvoline stated. The oil filter is supposed to take care of the larger particles. The smaller particles held in suspension are supposed to be small enough that they don't alter the lubricating properties of the oil. I'm pretty sure that most people reading this don't have the ability to do the lab testing necessary to come to the conclusion that Valvoline has. For me it's simple I trust that if Valvoline thinks that it's important enough to make available in print, it's important enough to pass on. To each his own. 

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That is exactly right. Full flow oil filters don't really take the bad stuff out. You change oil to get the bad stuff out. Full flow filters are not intended to catch the smallest particles. If they did, they would plug in a very short period of time. It is more important that some oil get through. Full flow oil filters will bypass when they are plugged and when the oil is cold, but then they aren't filtering at all. Their main purpose it to keep large trash out that would embed in the bearings and shorten their life. Over time this has proved to be a good idea for engine life, but it is far from perfect.

 

If you want to remove the tiniest trash from oil, a partial flow filter is the way to do it. Since they cannot stop the oil supply to the engine, extremely tight filter media can be used to trap extremely tiny particles. I don't have the statistics handy, but all the oil in the engine goes through the filter in a shorter time than you would think. They really do help clean up the oil, as opposed to a full flow whose main job is to keep larger particles from becoming embedded in the bearings. Partial flow filters are no panacea though either. I doubt they remove all the acid for instance. Probably not all the water either. My guess would be they catch mostly soot and worn metal. They aren't used on any modern cars that I am aware of. Changing the oil is still what really matters.

 

 

Edited by Bloo (see edit history)
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Filters catch particulate matter, but as @Bloo says, have no effect on liquid contaminants such as acids and water.  To remove the latter, drain the oil at least once every 12-15 months HOT, irrespective of how many miles driven.

 

For @John DePrey, I'm reposting (posted earlier today in a thread on a 1938 Fiat IIRC) photos of "crank turds" being removed from a crankshaft that had been run on non-detergent oil exclusively.  With non-detergent, debris settles out not only in the oil pan as depicted above, but also in all oil passages in the engine, including the crankshaft.  detergent oil keeps solid contaminants in suspension, so that those in the small amounts of oil in the oil galleries during today's oil change will come out in the next oil change.

 

Another reason to change oil every 12-15 months is that additives are depleted by oxidation over time as well as by miles.

crank turd 1.jpeg

crank turd 2.jpeg

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@Bloo pointed out the ability of partial flow filters to continuously clean the oil.  I did some tests, measurements, and calculations some years ago on oil flow through the partial flow filter in my 1948 Studebaker M5 truck.  Using 10W-30 oil as a reference, its viscosity at 212 °F (100 °C) is about the same as water at room temperature.  So, I hooked up my garden hose with pressure gauge and some pipe fittings and measured the water flow through an oil filter orifice at 30 psig.  I got about 1.5 quarts per minute through an 0.060" orifice.  The positive displacement gear pump puts out a lot more oil than that at cruise speed so there is plenty of oil left for lubricating parts.  Using some theory about fluid flow through orifices, I then calculated the flow for different size orifices over a range of pressures.  From that, I calculated how fast oil would clean up from a 6 quart sump at 1.5 quarts per minute filter flow when using a filter that would trap 90% of particles of given size.  It indicated that in 10 minutes of operation, 90% of the particles in the oil would be removed, and 99% in 20 minutes, etc.  Modern filters are 90-95% efficient for particles in the 10-20 micron size (0.001 inch = 25.4 microns) but they also trap smaller particles eventually.  Conclusion:  even a partial flow filter will keep the oil clean and catch most particles of dangerous size pretty quickly.  And, the oil is clean the next time the engine is started.  QED.

 

orifice_flow.jpg.5e44b4fff27764a20f56a79fd47cb305.jpg

Oil flow through a filter orifice at various pressures.

 

oil_clean_ratio.jpg.b576368782b484f2e09d3c752af69c04.jpg

How the oil is cleaned as a function of time.

 

 

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Thanks folks, good dialog. The acids, water etc I understand, it's why I strive to change oil yearly on all my engines. And yes partial flow filters can filter small particulate quite well in a "steady state" system, but the crank bearings get far more oil directly from the sump. If any sludge does break loose (not a steady state) where does it go? (Found a pic online awhile back about the turds being what you get if you DO switch over... lol)

I'm 100% sold on detergent oil use in an engine that starts out even relatively clean, but haven't yet been convinced that it's a good idea in an engine with 80 years of sludge deposits in it. So maybe I can switch, but I'm not at "should" yet. 

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7 minutes ago, John DePrey said:

I'm 100% sold on detergent oil use in an engine that starts out even relatively clean, but haven't yet been convinced that it's a good idea in an engine with 80 years of sludge deposits in it. So maybe I can switch, but I'm not at "should" ye

John, in 1994 I acquired a 1925 Pierce 80 that had not run in 10 years due to owner illness, yet was running when I bought it.  It had been on a diet of non-detergent oil since 1956 and was well-worn but ran well.  I cleaned out the oil pan, oil pump, and the copper distribution lines to the seven main bearings, checked a couple of bearing clearances which were acceptable (didn't do more because there were no engine noises).  I decided to wean this engine off non-detergent oil.  To that end, I changed oil hot to 3 qts detergent, 6 non-detergent (total of 9 in the system), ran 300 miles and drained again.  This time I used 6 detergent and 3 non-detergent, ran another 300 miles, and changed to full detergent.  I examined the drained oil carefully and detected no debris in drained oil beyond the initial change.  The oil darkened quickly as I would expect on those L-head engines, but there were no chunks perceptible (didn't subject them to a microscope or oil analysis).

 

I've read that in the early 1950s, these new oils would/could turn loose deposits, but have seen no reports of that in the last 50 years.

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