Doctor's Pontiac Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 The starter on my 41 Oldsmobile is suddenly dead. 6 volt original. It was working perfectly until about a month. Since then I have not attempted to start the engine as I was concentrated on installing the restored radio and the glovebox with a clock and all its wiring for lights as well. The radio requires a power wire to the ignition switch. Yesterday I finally finished the job and today wanted to go out for a ride and test how radio and instrument lights work. When I turned the ignition key and pressed the starter pedal there was absolutely nothing, not a click, not a hum, nothing at all. Many attempts and no signs of power to the starter. I am very suspicious that I placed the wires of the ignition in the wrong connectors when adding the radio wire and need help to sort it out. The switch has 3 connectors shown on this photo from today, labeled 1-3, taking from above and behind the dashboard (I can not see what is in the photo, the camera is the only thing that fits there). Driver's side is the R on the photo. I added the radio wire to connector # 1 plus a capacitor also on same connector. Connector # 2 has a wire coming from an aftermarket turn signal flasher which works well. The pack of red wires going to connectors # 1 and # 3 may have been accidentally swapped and placed in the wrong side. It is extremely difficult to reach this area. There is no direct vision and with so many wires getting together it is very challenging to tighten the screw that holds them to the connector. Would like some opinions before messing up more with this wiring. In case is helpful: - Battery is fully charged and worked great until now - All lights work well (they have their separate circuit not connected to ignition) - Radio works - With a test light, I have voltage on connector # 1 all the time and when ignition key is turned on, there is voltage on all 3 connectors - Starter motor has voltage from the battery and ground is good. Don't know how to test the wire that activates the starter from the ignition switch (this may be the key to the problem) - Wires appear as shown in the wiring diagram but not sure how to test where each wire goes I am pretty sure is a simple bad connection and my own fault for not taking a picture before adding the radio wire. Hope is not a problem with the starter (fingers crossed). Any tips? Thank you all Manuel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 Isn't the starter a stomp pedal on this car? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalef62 Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 3 hours ago, Bloo said: Isn't the starter a stomp pedal on this car? Yes it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 Sounds like a starter issue - maybe the load switch that the pedal actuates...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor's Pontiac Posted October 21, 2022 Author Share Posted October 21, 2022 It is, and worked perfectly every single time since I got the car. I also activated the starter by hand from under the hood emulating what the pedal does and nothing happened 3 hours ago, Bloo said: Isn't the starter a stomp pedal on this car? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor's Pontiac Posted October 21, 2022 Author Share Posted October 21, 2022 3 minutes ago, EmTee said: Sounds like a starter issue - maybe the load switch that the pedal actuates...? Before going to the starter I need to confirm how the wires connect at the switch. How do I test if wires at connectors # 1 and #3 are correct? Any suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 Based on the diagram above, it looks like the radio is powered by the same ignition switch terminal that powers the horn relay. This is the HOT feed from the starter/battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldtech Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 Your ignition wiring has nothing at all to do with the starter not working. The starter is directly connected to the battery so it can only be cable connections, the pedal switch, or the starter itself. Looking at the diagram you have the hot in the right place, the condenser should go on the wire to the coil. The other 2 connections seem to be reversed on the diagram but if this is just an off-on switch it doesn't matter. Test that you have power to the coil when it is on, and not when it is off. If so, you are good! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor's Pontiac Posted October 22, 2022 Author Share Posted October 22, 2022 12 hours ago, EmTee said: Based on the diagram above, it looks like the radio is powered by the same ignition switch terminal that powers the horn relay. This is the HOT feed from the starter/battery. 9 hours ago, Oldtech said: Your ignition wiring has nothing at all to do with the starter not working. The starter is directly connected to the battery so it can only be cable connections, the pedal switch, or the starter itself. Looking at the diagram you have the hot in the right place, the condenser should go on the wire to the coil. The other 2 connections seem to be reversed on the diagram but if this is just an off-on switch it doesn't matter. Test that you have power to the coil when it is on, and not when it is off. If so, you are good! This is what I did based on suggestions and sadly it seems that the starter motor is dead: 1. Tested the power to coil with ignition ON and got voltage on the positive wire of the coil. With ignition OFF there is no voltage at the coil 2. Removed the starter switch located on top of the starter. It is a very simple connector between the battery and the starter and it looks fine to me although has a small wearing on one side of the copper connector (see photo below) 3. The connector on top of the starter looks fair with minimal wearing in my view (photo below). I cleaned it with a steel brush and then did a direct connection between the positive cable of the battery and the starter holding the battery cable tight to the connector on top of the starter by hand. Based on Oldtech description it can only be 3 things: cable, pedal switch or the starter itself. I think I by-passed the switch with this test and I have nothing in response, just a few sparks at the negative battery terminal and not a hint of starter motor spinning Is this sufficient evidence that the starter motor is the problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 The switch doesn't look terrible, but since you have it out, I would see whether it's possible to 'flip' the contacts 180* to put the virgin copper into use. That said, it looks like the starter motor is the root problem if jumping + voltage to the motor terminal doesn't make the motor spin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 Those burn up horribly by the time they are all done. Yours looks new. Nothing wrong there. Either there is a problem in the starter itself, like maybe brushes, or there is a problem with a cable or the battery itself. What I would do is put connect a multimeter or a test light between the starter case and the post on top of that switch. You should have 6 volts-ish, or a lit lest light. Then engage the starter and see if the voltage pulls down super low or the light goes out. If the light stays on or the voltage stays high, look inside the starter. If it goes out have another look at the battery cables. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor's Pontiac Posted October 23, 2022 Author Share Posted October 23, 2022 On 10/21/2022 at 7:51 PM, Bloo said: Those burn up horribly by the time they are all done. Yours looks new. Nothing wrong there. Either there is a problem in the starter itself, like maybe brushes, or there is a problem with a cable or the battery itself. What I would do is put connect a multimeter or a test light between the starter case and the post on top of that switch. You should have 6 volts-ish, or a lit lest light. Then engage the starter and see if the voltage pulls down super low or the light goes out. If the light stays on or the voltage stays high, look inside the starter. If it goes out have another look at the battery cables. I followed Bloo's suggestions and hooked the multimeter with the negative to the starter case and the positive to the connector where the battery cable is attached and I got 6.26 volts. Then asked my daughter to hit the starter button for several seconds and the voltage immediately drops to near zero when starter engaged. I did it also with my test light and the light turned off instantly when the starter gets engaged (but no cranking at all, starter is totally silent). I repeated several times to make sure reading is accurate and got always same result. I removed and examined the positive battery cable which looks fine externally. Can you interpret these findings for me? Is the marked voltage drop indicating that the starter motor is trying to pull current but is not getting any? I will look for a new battery cable to test again during the week if that may be the problem. I am hopeful that I won't have to remove the starter. That is a very difficult job for me, working alone with all sort of aches and poor physical abilities. On 10/21/2022 at 7:49 PM, EmTee said: The switch doesn't look terrible, but since you have it out, I would see whether it's possible to 'flip' the contacts 180* to put the virgin copper into use. That said, it looks like the starter motor is the root problem if jumping + voltage to the motor terminal doesn't make the motor spin. EmTee. I thought of doing that also but the large copper piece is riveted to the starter button (visible in my initial photo) and contained in a square shape seat and therefore can not be flipped. I don't want to remove the rivet to flip the contact because don't think I will be able to repair the damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 Ok it goes to zero? The problem must be in the cables or the battery. Try putting the meter right on the + and - battery posts, right to the middle of them so you are right on the battery and see if it drops to zero like that. If it still does, the battery is dead. If it doesn't, there is a problem with the cables. I'm guessing the positive cable goes right to that switch on the starter, right? Where does the negative cable go? Does it go right to the engine/transmission assembly somewhere or does it go to the frame? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor's Pontiac Posted October 23, 2022 Author Share Posted October 23, 2022 I did test directly to the battery and have 6.26 volts. All lights and radio work fine and battery is frequently on a trickle charger and fully charged. Positive cable connects to top of starter motor to the switch as shown in initial photos. Negative ground cable connects to a large bolt in the front of starter as well. Both connections clean and tight. Positive cable looks intact, has been in the car for 35 years but car was in storage until 2 years ago, so may be corroded inside? Should I try getting a new cable or is the starter that failed? I don’t understand how to interpret the voltage drop to zero when engaging starter. Can you explain? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 Before investing in new cables do some trouble shooting at the other end of the suspected cable. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph P. Indusi Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 You should not see any sparking at the negative battery terminal under any conditions. Check that the negative battery terminal/clamp is tight and clean (metal to metal), same for the positive battery terminal and the cables ends where they enter the battery clamps. A voltmeter draws very little current and a poor connection will show full battery voltage but this is not a definitive test for voltage under load. Joe, BCA 33493 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldtech Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 If you have a set of booster cables use one to jump the batt post to ground and see if it cranks, then do the post to starter ( from the post, not the clamp) this will tell you where to look if it is a connection issue. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 (edited) 6 hours ago, Doctor's Pontiac said: I did test directly to the battery and have 6.26 volts. All lights and radio work fine and battery is frequently on a trickle charger and fully charged. If that voltage was with the starter engaged, then you definitely have a problem with the cables or battery terminals. If the starter is pulling down to zero, with the starter engaged, but the battery is staying at 6 volts with the starter engaged, the voltage is being lost to a resistive connection on the way to the starter. If the battery was at fault, it should have pulled down to zero as well. You could find out where the resistive connection is with the meter, and I'll post how if you want, but @Oldtech's method would be quicker. Edited October 23, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 Does one of the cables get warm when you try to start the car. The warm/hot cable is the problem connection. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor's Pontiac Posted October 25, 2022 Author Share Posted October 25, 2022 I am following all suggestions that I receive and appreciate everyone's comments that help a lot to learn electrical trouble shooting. Unfortunately, I still can not identify what the problem is with my starter motor. What initially I thought was a wrong wiring at the ignition turned to be a problem with either the battery, the battery cables or the starter motor. I learned that lesson from your posts so I keep focusing on sorting out which one of the 3 components failed suddenly. Over last 3 days (nights actually, as I work during the day and then spend time in the garage late at night) I did the following: 1. Went back to the basics. Removed both positive and negative cables and cleaned them shiny and free of any debris 2. Did the same with both battery posts and all the copper connectors in the starter switch 3. Then left the battery on charger overnight 4. I connected everything again last night (must be the 15th time at least I have done it), crossed fingers and tried to crank the starter. This car has a mechanical fuel pump and typically takes 3 attempts until has enough gas in the combustion chamber to fire. I had a moment of euphoria because as soon as I hit the pedal it cranked strongly as used to be the case. I waited few seconds and pushed the pedal a 2nd time and it cranked again pretty good and the engine made the usual attempt to fire. I knew that the next time it should fire so hit the pedal a third time and............total silence, nothing, nada. 5. Again left battery in charger, just in case the battery is failing and today attempted to crank but had same outcome, no cranking. 6. I also hooked with the voltmeter to both battery posts while engaging the starter and volts dropped minimally from 6.32 to 6.26 (without the starter motor cranking). This test presumably means battery is OK 7. I noticed that the button on the starter switch located on top of the starter motor has a long path until it reaches the copper contact inside. I thought that perhaps it is not reaching the contact sufficiently and decided to fabricate a small "hat" of a copper sheet and placed it on top of the contact that is on starter (see photos below). Now when the button is pressed it travels about 1/16th of an inch only and it hits the contact on the starter, but again, no cranking. 8. Tomorrow I will use a spare 12 volt battery and connect directly to the contact on the starter. 12 volts will not damage the starter if used for a few seconds plus I will have it disconnected from the car electrical system so lights will not be burned. If the starter does not spin with 12 volts using jumper cables I will come to the conclusion that is a starter problem and will remove it. 9. I will buy a positive cable tomorrow from Tractor Supply and will try. Prefer to spend 30 dollars that may save the work of removing and repairing the starter motor. A new cable will give me assurance that the problem is or is not a faulty positive cable Please don't get tired of my post! I am very persistent and will figure out and comments are very helpful to provide ideas.😃 Manuel 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor's Pontiac Posted October 26, 2022 Author Share Posted October 26, 2022 Finally could resolve starter problem successfully !! Found a 2/0 (00) cable at Fleet Farm store. Before installing it I hooked a spare 12 volts battery directly to starter and it worked perfectly and confirmed the starter motor is fine. Then I installed the new positive cable and the motor started spinning happily. It is a 24 inch long cable and a few inches longer than correct but I don’t mind if it does the job well. It is good quality copper. In conclusion, careful cleaning of ALL contacts plus new cable resolved the “dead starter” problem. Thank you all for your replies and suggestions. You made the job a lot easier! Manuel 7 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NailheadBob Posted October 26, 2022 Share Posted October 26, 2022 Another great job Manuel with your follow through and end results and photos along the way, very detailed, and forum members that assisted you, I have not worked on many 6-volt systems, so it’s still a little green to me, but from what I have seen on this forum and told by friends cables and connection issues are 90% of electrical issues on 6 volt systems. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 (edited) Why does your meter not have a decimal point? I might question what the numbers mean. It should have a decimal point to be able to tell you what the numbers mean in a voltage. Without the decimal point, the 626 could mean 6.26 volts or .626 volts. Same goes for the 001 number. Setting the meter on the 20 only means that if you connect the meter to a voltage over 20 volts you will either blow a fuse of toast the meter. Just my experience using a DVOM. Edited November 5, 2022 by Larry Schramm (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor's Pontiac Posted November 5, 2022 Author Share Posted November 5, 2022 Thank you for bringing it up. You are right. I have another good meter and I verified it and it was very similar reading. This cheap meter was goofy that day but normally shows with the decimals as it should. I just did a comparison again shown on the photos. In addition, the car starts perfectly every time which won’t happen with a low voltage battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 10 hours ago, Doctor's Pontiac said: Thank you for bringing it up. You are right. I have another good meter and I verified it and it was very similar reading. This cheap meter was goofy that day but normally shows with the decimals as it should. I just did a comparison again shown on the photos. In addition, the car starts perfectly every time which won’t happen with a low voltage battery. I would chuck the cheap meter. You always want to know what the correct voltage is, even on low voltage systems. I have had meters that went AWOL and they promptly went into the trash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 There is a reason a good DVOM from Fluke is over a grand. Most meters aren’t shielded, and are as reliable as a member of congress. Good diagnostic work requires good tools and equipment. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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