1928 Pontiac 6-28 sedan

[nsbrassnut]

Hi Zack

 

A friend of mine up here has a '27 Canadian Pontiac 6. He had the engine rebuilt a couple years ago and has the old pistons that he took out of it. It was running when dismantled, but needed a full rebuild, especially the bottom end.  He did get new custom Jahn(?) pistons that were nice, but also pricey.

 

He has the pistons in storage. I checked with him and he may be able willing to sell a used piston to help out. He says they are 2.250" diameter standard bore factory pistons. He did look at the pictures of your engine on this site and he thinks that his '27 and your '28 have some external differences. So we aren't too sure of whether the pistons would fit right or not.

 

Downside, we are on the other side of the northern border in Eastern Canada. Shipping/mailing cost would be a bit higher than for something in the US. But its not crazy for mailing though.

 

If you are interested send me a PM through the forum. And leave a note here too. I check the forum regularly, but only sign in occasionally.

 

It would also be good to add in the piston height from the top of the piston to the wrist pin and the wrist pin diameter if you can measure them. That would help with checking the pistons to see if they may fit or not.

 

Drive Safe

Jeff

Nova Scotia

[zdillinger]

11 minutes ago, nsbrassnut said:

Hi Zack

 

A friend of mine up here has a '27 Canadian Pontiac 6. He had the engine rebuilt a couple years ago and has the old pistons that he took out of it. It was running when dismantled, but needed a full rebuild, especially the bottom end.  He did get new custom Jahn(?) pistons that were nice, but also pricey.

 

He has the pistons in storage. I checked with him and he may be able willing to sell a used piston to help out. He says they are 2.250" diameter standard bore factory pistons. He did look at the pictures of your engine on this site and he thinks that his '27 and your '28 have some external differences. So we aren't too sure of whether the pistons would fit right or not.

 

Downside, we are on the other side of the northern border in Eastern Canada. Shipping/mailing cost would be a bit higher than for something in the US. But its not crazy for mailing though.

 

If you are interested send me a PM through the forum. And leave a note here too. I check the forum regularly, but only sign in occasionally.

 

It would also be good to add in the piston height from the top of the piston to the wrist pin and the wrist pin diameter if you can measure them. That would help with checking the pistons to see if they may fit or not.

 

Drive Safe

Jeff

Nova Scotia

That would be amazing Jeff, thank you! I need to get out to the car and make triple sure the engine hasn't been bored out. If it's still the standard bore, as I think it is, I will definitely be in touch to arrange things!

 

I'll also send you a PM with email/phone/mailing address.

 

Thanks again!

[31nash880]

Glad to see you may have help.

[zdillinger]

18 hours ago, Bloo said:

Don't give up. You already did the hard part (wood). Take a step back and plan. It might not be as bad as you think.

 

In the old days, when an engine just needed rings, often an "inframe" overhaul was done if the bores were ok. meaning the pistons were pulled, bores measured, and if OK you would hone the cylinders (being careful to shield the crank) and stuff new pistons in. The pistons sometimes needed a little work too, but that wont matter because you clearly need new ones.

 

You might be able to get away with some form of that. My guess is it will need to be out of the car and completely disassembled for cleaning because of the broken metal, but I wouldn't get in a hurry about that either. Study the oiling system and see what all would need to be cleaned out. Maybe there's a diagram of it in the manual. If you are knocking plugs out of the crank and so on, it's time just to pull the engine, but I would have a good understanding of how the oil flows first.

 

Well, if it needs the whole banana, there are a LOT of good reasons to use new custom pistons, but if it's not in the budget, that's that.

 

That is definitely the direction I would be looking if the block doesn't need boring. I feel confident you can get NORS standard size pistons. Measure your bores first! It may have been bored in the past. As already mentioned, you can check with Craig. and also the advertisers in the Early Times Chapter newsletter. Kurt Kelsey passed away recently, so those parts are not accessible, for now anyway. He may have been the best known, but there are others in the club who have a bunch of stuff listed. They probably don't list everything they have. Kurt didn't. There's also California Pontiac and Ebay.

 

Whole engines sometimes turn up. If yours turns out to need everything, it might be worth watching for one.

 

Thanks for the encouragement and the information! I'm not doing anything quickly, and I'm certainly not giving up on the old girl. We'll get there, one way or another!

[zdillinger]

Well, I've done some more digging, and here are the bullet points of what I found out:

• I removed the offending rod/wrist pin/piston stub from the #4 bore and took a good look in it. There are two minor vertical scratches in the bore which I can just barely feel with a finger nail. I think they may very well hone out when I remove the cylinder glazing prior to installing new rings.
• I removed the #5 piston and rod as well. The #5 piston appears immaculate, no cracking, discolorations, etc., of any kind. This gives me hope that the others may be OK, but I will obviously confirm all of them since I'll be doing rings anyway.
• The babbitt on both rods appear immaculate, borderline new. Both rods still have shims in place. I was particular impressed with the appearance of the crank journals, which appear highly polished with no scuffs etc., I have no doubt they are nice and round but will confirm. I will also measure the clearances but, again, given the condition of the babbitt I would be shocked if they were too bad.
• As I was removing the rods, I noticed that a steady drip of oil was draining from the oil holes in the crankshaft. This gives me hope that they are clean-ish and free from oil-starving metal chunks. I'll still go through it to be safe but things are looking up on that front.
• I measured the cylinder bores on #4 and #5. They measure out at 3.255 and 3.256, respectively, at the center and bottom of the bore, so I think it's safe to say this engine hasn't been bored but it probably "should" be. 
• Both cylinders show a vertical taper of between 0.008 and 0.010, and I assume this would be consistent across the six (I will verify). Higher than I'd like but not unexpected. The cylinders are round to within 0.002 on both cylinders and I'm OK with this unless someone suggests it is a problem.
• I noticed some odd-looking damage near a water passage in the head gasket in #4. This now has me wondering if gasket leaked water into the cylinder, causing the car to hydro-lock in that cylinder and, since the piston skirts are so thin in this engine, that's what cracked. I'll never know for sure, of course, but it's my operational theory at the moment. To be safe, I'll be sure to check the rod for twist/bends as well.

So, all in all, things looks a whole lot better tonight than they did when I first found the problem. Now I just need to:

• Obtain the pistons (hopeful on that front thanks to members of this forum!)
• Find a set of rings (not sure where that will come from but I plan to call Otto, or maybe I can find some that work by calling Hastings),
• Do some honing and some extensive cleaning (starting this weekend with the oil pan and progressing from there).
• Put it together, run it and see what happens.

I appreciate the information and support you've all shown as I work through this. It means a lot to me to be a part of the club, so thank you all.

[Bloo]

Hastings rings (famous for their 3 piece oil rings) would be a huge improvement over the 1920s design, there is one potential issue. There is one version of the split head six that cannot use them because the oil ring partially exits the cylinder at the bottom of the stroke. I believe that is one of the later larger displacement split head sixes, but I am not sure. It would be easy before you tear it completely down to watch a good piston as as it passes bottom dead center and make sure you don't see a ring peeking out.

[chistech]

I used Hasting rings on my Olds with Ross custom forged aluminum pistons. If you end up going the “all 6 new” route then Ross can most likely get you the rings. Of course they’ll have to be filed but that’s the norm in these old engines.

My Olds also had .018 of taper so it was bored .020 oversized.

 

You might be on to something with the hydro lock. If the motor had decent compression across the board and it sucked up a slug of water, you’re probably better off with the piston failure other than a rod, crank, or head!

[Ian Mc]

Hi Zach,

I am a friend of Jeff’s in NS & I have a 1927 Pontiac coupe. I have a spare motor with a set of standard pistons… I hope I never need to swap my motor, but If I do… the set of pistons I have fit that motor. The motor in the car is running 30 thou oversize ARIAS pistons. I have to move a car and get up into the attic to see if there are other pistons ( I don’t remember if there are extra pistons. ) I will try to get up there this week. Keep in mind I live north of the border and free trade is very expensive if the shipping costs are any indication. I really don’t want to sell the set of 6 ( but let me check for other pistons ) & I will get back to you.

 

Ian

[zdillinger]

25 minutes ago, Ian Mc said:

Hi Zach,

I am a friend of Jeff’s in NS & I have a 1927 Pontiac coupe. I have a spare motor with a set of standard pistons… I hope I never need to swap my motor, but If I do… the set of pistons I have fit that motor. The motor in the car is running 30 thou oversize ARIAS pistons. I have to move a car and get up into the attic to see if there are other pistons ( I don’t remember if there are extra pistons. ) I will try to get up there this week. Keep in mind I live north of the border and free trade is very expensive if the shipping costs are any indication. I really don’t want to sell the set of 6 ( but let me check for other pistons ) & I will get back to you.

 

Ian

That sounds great, thank you! I totally understand wanting to keep the spare motor together, but any additional spares you have would be much appreciated. I understand it will be pricey to get them here if you do have them. Either way, thank you very much for your time!

[zdillinger]

Well, I made some more progress on this project. The biggest highlight is that I've been able to find a source for some spare factory pistons, along with spare rods, and should have them shortly! 

 

In terms of actual work, I have:

• Removed and inspected all of the pistons/rods. All Babbitt appears almost brand new, and the five unbroken pistons look to be in excellent condition.
• Measured all six cylinder bores and found all to be approximately equally worn as expected. No surprises, no real concerns.
• Measured all six connecting rod journals on the crankshaft. All are round with 0.001, nicely polished, and free from scuffs and damage. I think this engine must have been gone through at some point, there's no way this is still factory work. 
• Cleaned out the oil pan, removing all traces of sludge and metal with a combination of Easy Off, Purple Power degreaser, and a pressure washer. It looks practically brand new in there.

Next steps:

• I need to fit new oil screens in the pan as one of mine was torn by metal chunks and both were loaded with gunky oil and metal. 
• Remove/clean up oil pump and all oil passages.
• Inspect the valves and lap/clean up as necessary.
• Obtain new piston rings (Still need to investigate).
• Obtain required gaskets (ordered from Olson's)

Thanks for following along! Hopefully the old girl will be moving again soon!

Zach

Edited April 19, 2023 by zdillinger (see edit history)

[chistech]

Zach, first off, great news on the find. i would recommend that when you get the new rods and pistons, weigh them, and your original ones. Try and find the replacement that weighs as close as possible. I too lucked out with my Olds when it came to the crank and main bearings. The rods were a different story. It seems GM used different material on the rods vs the mains, at least with the Olds. My mains, crank, and rod journals were like new yet when we removed the rod caps, the Babbitt fell apart. Other olds owners I’ve spoken with have had the same experience. A few Pontiac owners I’ve spoken with have seen the Sam thing but these were all 32’s. What was pretty crazy to me is my engine shop told me when they put the crank back in, it turned okay with the initial 30# torque but each time the torque was increased it turned easier. At the final 60# it turned like it was on ball bearings. My engine guy told me that is the correct way a crank should be. He told me many guys scrape the bearings too much and don’t test them at full torque using the lower torque as their mark. I’m not an engine rebuilder so I have to take his word on that as he’s been doing babbited engines for 40 years.

[DITCHBURN 1928 Pontiac]

On 8/2/2022 at 10:32 AM, zdillinger said:

Hello all, 

 

I've started my new project, a 1928 Pontiac 6-28 sedan which I have named Myrna (after Ms. Loy). This is the car that I was asking about in my "Restoration space options" thread in General Discussion, but I figured it would be better to move the updates to this dedicated subforum. So, anyway, here I am. The plan, as of right now, is to get it running and driving safely while preserving as much originality as possible. The original seating surfaces are present, though it will need new door panels at some point, and there is enough of the very cool old two-tone blue paint to at least run it for a while while I decide if a full restoration is on the cards. Right now I lean towards just preserving what's there.

 

The car was delivered to me last Friday and I spent the weekend cataloging the parts on hand and doing a few simple things to the car, including:

• Fitting all new ignition parts to correct a no-spark issue.
• Fitting the radiator, including new hoses,
• Rebuilt fuel pump
• Cleaned out gas tank
• Ran a new steel line from tank to pump
• Removed aftermarket Schebler SX-305a carburetor for cleaning/examination. I'm thinking about going back to the stock carb, assuming I can find one, just for originality's sake but, then again, this aftermarket piece was probably fitted for a reason...
   

The car runs (albeit poorly) when I spray a little starting fluid down the carb so I think it should go once I have the fuel system sorted. I already ran an all new metal fuel line from tank to pump and rebuilt the fuel pump and tank pickup, but it doesn't seem to be drawing fuel, which leads me to believe that perhaps the cam eccentric is worn out. More diagnosis to be done later on that.

 

Obviously the body needs some fairly serious attention because a lot of the wood is missing. Fortunately, I'm a furniture maker with all the tools needed to redo/repair this damage. I even have a few hundred board feet of ash already on hand.

 

Anyhow, it's a start. Here's some pics.

 

 

 

Hello Zach... the distributor lock pin is located directly above the oil dipstick between cylinder 3 & 4. and the oil pressure fitting is located below the oil dipstick. There is an adjustable valve located there and inside is a spring that allows minor adjustment to pressure by turning the adjusting screw 1/2 turn in or out to increase or decrease spring pressure. Many owners of the day also hooked up a T-tap to that feed line to a remote oil filter tucked inside the frame rail....then often forgot about it and the filter would clog up. The filters are no longer available but I am sure you could rig something up with a cannister style filter. The 1926-27 Pontiac had a vacuum tank that hung on the firewall above the steering column that would help draw fuel from the tank. Then in 1928 Pontiac switched to a fuel pump. Make sure your fuel tank cap is sealing properly to make sure that the fuel pump can suck fuel. The pistons which I am sending may be from a 1927 but have the same part number for 1927 to 1929.

Edited April 20, 2023 by DITCHBURN 1928 Pontiac (see edit history)

[DITCHBURN 1928 Pontiac]

On 4/11/2023 at 8:57 AM, zdillinger said:

Well, it was all going swimmingly until it wasn't. Long story short: broken pistons are bad and Zach is highly discouraged and also semi-stupid.

 

Ever since I got the car started, I've had a little smoke and some hesitation coupled with a minor vibration. I thought it was just from sitting, needing the carb fine-tuned, carboned-up rings, etc., and I figured I'd deal with it after getting the body wood sorted out. Now that that is done, I'm once again looking into the mechanicals. 

 

Turns out it wasn't anything simple, it turns out I have a busted piston in #4. I discovered it while checking the relative strength of the spark on each cylinder by grounding the plugs one by one. I noticed that grounding #4 made no difference in how it idled, indicating a dead cylinder. The old "thumb over the spark plug hole" confirmed no compression on #4. I pulled the valve covers to visually confirm if the valves moved properly, which they do. Next I pulled the head hoping for a bad gasket, only to find that the top of the piston has cracked completely off around the skirt and was just floating in the bore. I was able to fish it out with a strong magnet, believe it or not. Thankfully there seems to be no damage to the bore itself, though I'm really not sure how that is possible given the complete and utter destruction of the piston skirt. I dropped the pan to find the rest of the piston in pieces.

 

I figure this may have been what sidelined the car to begin with back in the 50s. How it happened I'll never know. Perhaps it was over-revved or run hot by the "hot rod" dude who slapped a hopped-up carburetor on it 60-plus years ago. Maybe it was just metal fatigue and it finally let go, though I certainly didn't hear anything that would make me suspect this destruction happened on my watch.

 

So... I'm pretty much at a standstill for the moment while I figure out what to do. A full rebuild on this engine will be a complete budget killer. I don't want to spend the money for new custom pistons if I can avoid it, and I really don't want to have to pull the engine to have it bored, etc. I suppose if I could find a standard bore piston and rings I'd try it and see what happens. Of course there's probably metal in the oil passages and maybe the pump too, so I'll have to deal with that no matter what.

 

I should have known it wouldn't be this easy. Maybe I should have started with the mechanicals before doing the body wood. Or maybe I shouldn't have bought this d@m^ thing at all... did I mentioned I'm discouraged?

 

Does anyone have any standard bore 1928 Pontiac pistons and rings? Or do I just say screw it and do the bore/pistons? It's only money, right? Who says throwing good money after bad is a bad idea? 

Don't get discouraged Zach ... you are making excellent progress. It is the journey and learning experience that is the most fun. All the material in the oil pan photo looks like busted up babbit from a connecting rod.

[zdillinger]

8 hours ago, DITCHBURN 1928 Pontiac said:

Don't get discouraged Zach ... you are making excellent progress. It is the journey and learning experience that is the most fun. All the material in the oil pan photo looks like busted up babbit from a connecting rod.

I'm feeling much better about this whole project, and a lot of credit for this is due to you Don. Thanks again for helping me with the pistons and for talking things through with me. This is the first engine I've done where I couldn't just order brand new parts right out of a catalog so it's been a new experience!

[zdillinger]

I'm here with another update and another sigh of relief. I won't jinx myself but I'm feeling optimistic...

 

The deeper I get into this engine, the more I realize that someone has been in here before. While I have everything apart for the piston replacement, I decided to investigate the valve train. Amazingly, the valve seats all appeared virtually as-new, with clean, sharp faces and minor carbon. Some of the valves were carboned but that was easily fixed, and I lightly polished the valve stems while I was at it. I lapped the valves in using a vintage lapping tool and saw excellent seating across all 12 valves. This, coupled with the excellent condition of the babbitt, means I'm much closer to getting on the road than I had initially feared. I set the cold lash to 0.008 per the manual and will hot adjust as needed once everything is running again.

 

I have the original pistons de-carboned and ready to go. Once I get the new (old) pistons, I'll follow Ted's advice and pick the one that is closest in weight to my original five. After I hone the cylinders, I'll finish the internal cleanup of the crankcase (pan is already done), oil passages, and pump, and can then theoretically begin reassembly. The head, pan, and valve cover gaskets should be here today from Olson's.

 

I have found a bit more junk in the water passages than I expected/would like to see, so I'll try to clean that up as well before buttoning things up, and will then run Evaporust in the cooling system for a while, as recommended on this forum.

 

Thanks for following along and for the words of encouragement y'all have sent. It means a lot to be part of this great community and club!

 

Best,

Zach

Edited April 26, 2023 by zdillinger (see edit history)

[chistech]

Zach, you can also get a Gano filter and run it on your upper radiator hose to pick up the stuff that loosens. The make a clear filter and I usually run them on a fresh restoration to pick up the bits. You can see the flow and the junk buildup as it happens. Pull it out, flush it, then put it back. If you radiator is off, a trick I use is to lay it on its side and block the top and overflow pipe off completely. Then put two 1’ lengths of hose on each inlet/ outflow. Take a piece of 1/4 air tube and screw in a bolt to plug one end. Drill a series of small holes in the first 10” or so then connect the other end to your air hose. Regulate the pressure down to 6-8lbs and push the hose through the bottom hose on the radiator until it stops, usually on the other side of the tank. (You can thread the 1/4 tube in the radiator first before putting on the length of hose as it’s easier that way). Fill the horizontal radiator with a warm Evaporust solution so that it comes up each hose a few inches. Turn on the air and it moves the Evaporust around quite effectively. I’ve found it cleans them as good as a radiator shop would. Leave it going overnight for best results. If too much water is bubbling out then reduce the air some. Flush it with water after of course.

Edited April 26, 2023 by chistech (see edit history)

[zdillinger]

16 hours ago, chistech said:

Zach, you can also get a Gano filter and run it on your upper radiator hose to pick up the stuff that loosens. The make a clear filter and I usually run them on a fresh restoration to pick up the bits. You can see the flow and the junk buildup as it happens. Pull it out, flush it, then put it back. If you radiator is off, a trick I use is to lay it on its side and block the top and overflow pipe off completely. Then put two 1’ lengths of hose on each inlet/ outflow. Take a piece of 1/4 air tube and screw in a bolt to plug one end. Drill a series of small holes in the first 10” or so then connect the other end to your air hose. Regulate the pressure down to 6-8lbs and push the hose through the bottom hose on the radiator until it stops, usually on the other side of the tank. (You can thread the 1/4 tube in the radiator first before putting on the length of hose as it’s easier that way). Fill the horizontal radiator with a warm Evaporust solution so that it comes up each hose a few inches. Turn on the air and it moves the Evaporust around quite effectively. I’ve found it cleans them as good as a radiator shop would. Leave it going overnight for best results. If too much water is bubbling out then reduce the air some. Flush it with water after of course.

The radiator is off and I will definitely try this method! 

[EmTee]

I have both a Gano filter and a stocking in my '38.  The Gano catches big chunks/flakes and the stocking stops the fine stuff.  Install the stocking at the upper hose nipple so it is held by the upper hose.

 

[zdillinger]

An update on the '28 Pontiac. Since my last update I have:

- Found and cleaned a full set of pistons. This way I'm sure that the engine will be balanced.

- Cleaned the oil passages and interior of the crankcase. I'm happy to report that there was very little metal inside.

- Reinstalled intake and exhaust manifolds with new gaskets

- Installed and reamed new wrist pin bushings in the rods

- Installed new screening in the oil pan

- Obtained new gaskets

- Obtained piston rings (had to piece together several sets from eBay to find the right rings, as rings for the shallow ring grooves (1/8") are very hard to find.

- Checked and adjusted piston ring gap on all 18 rings and installed the rings.

 

Next up will be to install rods and pistons, button everything up, and see what happens when I push the starter.

 

Thanks to everyone for following along!

 

 

[chistech]

Seeing this is about 28 pontiacs, I hope you don’t mind me asking for a friend. My friend has a 28 GMC truck with a 28 pontiac engine. He’s in need of an oil pump. Can anyone help?

[zdillinger]

@chistech, check with @DITCHBURN 1928 Pontiac, he might have one. Failing that, there's California Pontiac Restoration. They have a bunch of NOS and used parts and they might have something.

[Stude Light]

Zach,

I just started following your post here. If you ever need rings again or aren't happy with what you pieced together on eBay, here is the source:

https://www.ringspacers.com/

Dave Reed is a great guy and very reasonable. He is also super helpful for advice - piston, rings, etc.

 

Scott

[zdillinger]

Just a quick update. Since my last post, I have:

- Installed all six pistons and rods

- Installed the oil pan and put in oil (so I don't forget later)

- Installed the carburetor and fuel line

- Installed the two cylinder heads with new head gaskets from Olson's

- Installed the water distribution pipe that bolts to the top of the two heads. Had to make a couple of gaskets but otherwise no big deal.

- Installed spark plugs, distributor cap, and spark plug wires.

 

Next up is figuring out how to mount the splash shield that goes under the radiator (it was off the car when I got it), then the radiator itself, hoses, etc.. Once that is done I can try to start the car once again. I'm very close to getting this going again and I'm combatting the desire to go too quickly which might cause me to miss something and make a potentially damaging mistake that could set me back. If all goes well, I could theoretically have this running by the weekend.

 

Thanks for following along!

[zdillinger]

Well, I couldn't wait.... the car lives once again! Runs good, went through my normal ring seating process and everything seems to be working great. Took a minute to get her to fire off but overall, I'm ecstatic! Now I need to sort out an exhaust system, she is way too loud.

 

 

 

[Bloo]

Congratulations!

 

[EmTee]

Sounds good to me! 

 

What does your "ring seating process" consist of?

 

Edited May 27, 2023 by EmTee (see edit history)

[Stude Light]

Glad you got it running! Congrats.

[zdillinger]

I took a quick yard drive with the Pontiac tonight. The brakes still need a lot of work, but I took the opportunity for a "family photo" of sorts.... extra points if you can spot my 7 year old daughter "driving" my '39 Packard.

Edited June 2, 2023 by zdillinger (see edit history)

[63RedBrier]

Great photo, Zach!  I can see your daughter peeking through the Packard wheel!  Congratulations on all your great progress on the Pontiac, too!  

[zdillinger]

Last night I took a more serious look at the brake system and can report the following:

• As expected, lots of worn out clevis pins and pin holes leading to a fair amount of slop in the system. The pins are easily obtainable (5/16" for future reference) but some of the holes will need to be welded up/drilled out. Not a difficult job, just time consuming. For some reason, the wear seems to be worse on the passenger side.
• The driver's front shoes are in very good condition with plenty of lining life after a quick cleanup with some 320 grit sandpaper (outside since I'm sure they probably contain asbestos).
• The cross shafts are held to the frame in the typical brackets. If there are any bushings in them, they are pretty worn out. They still rotate properly but I could see this being a pretty big source of noise going down the road. This explains the several rusted out springs that were wrapped around the shafts and the long, screen door style spring that laterally connected two of the brake rods. Those non-standards springs are long gone but I may end up putting something similar back in place if I can't think of a better way to affix the cross shafts/repair the bushings.
• One of the challenges to overcome was finding brake shoe springs. After spending 30 minutes in the back of the AutoZone going through their bagged brake kits (the manager is super nice to me there), I can report that the large springs from a standard H7046 kit will work in the Pontiac. The spring itself is just slightly smaller in diameter but feels plenty strong and gives good pedal response (certainly better than the worn out springs that were in there). 

I did a bunch of cleaning and greasing, replaced a couple of the pins/repaired holes, and installed the new springs on the right front wheel. I then adjusted it per the manual and took a short test yard drive. I was able to lock up the driver's front with ease, something that did not happen before. So I'd call that progress. After just cleaning/repairing the pins and holes, the driver's rear is working as well. You can feel it grab, but not quite locking up just yet, and the condition of the lining is unknown. The plan is to tackle the passenger front brake then move on to the rears.

 

 

Edited June 6, 2023 by zdillinger (see edit history)

[Roscoe]

I like the Pontiac, love the T, and ADORE the Packard. You are a lucky man. That Packard is on my bucket list...maybe someday when the kid is through college...

[zdillinger]

40 minutes ago, Roscoe said:

I like the Pontiac, love the T, and ADORE the Packard. You are a lucky man. That Packard is on my bucket list...maybe someday when the kid is through college...

I appreciate your kind words. The T is pretty much my favorite daily driver, though I don't drive it to the office (I work from home three days a week). I bought the Packard the same year my daughter was born and it is her favorite car on the planet.

[BuickTom87]

Nice collection you got there .. 

[zdillinger]

An new problem has reared its ugly head and I'm stuck...

 

I drove back to our pond the other day, nice little jaunt with my favorite co-pilot, my 7 year old daughter Abigail. Drove the car back into the barn and all was well. The next day I went out to go for a little bit longer of a drive. I always leave my cars in neutral when I'm done driving, but in the process of hitting the starter button, I must have knocked it into gear, because the car jumped forward. I put the clutch in, popped it back out of gear and hit the button again. Car started fine, but when I went to put it in gear, the car didn't move.

 

Since I got the car running and driving again, the clutch had been chattering whenever I started from rest (at least I assumed it was the clutch, now I'm not so sure). I thought maybe the jump from the starter had finally fried it, so I dropped the trans and replaced the disc with a NOS unit I had bought on the assumption I would eventually need it. No problems there, friction surface on the flywheel and pressure plates both looked practically brand new. After the new clutch, however, the car still will not go. I did confirm that the clutch is working before reconnecting the two u-joint halves, i.e. I could not turn the transmission u-joint with the car in gear, but could if I push the clutch in.

 

If I jack the rear axle of the car up and run the car in gear, the driver's side wheel turns, the passenger side does not. I can actually grab the driver's tire (simulating ground friction in normal driving) and stop it in this scenario, which generates a clunky sound from the axle. I obviously only tried this once. I had previously changed the gear oil in the axle and, upon draining the new oil and pulling the diff cover, the oil still looks clean, no pieces of metal in it whatsoever, with no apparent metal in the case either (the old oil was nasty and opaque tan, but no metal in there either). While running the car briefly without the cover, it appears that the differential is working properly. The gear teeth all appear nice and clean, no chips or missing teeth, etc., though seeing the drive pinion gear teeth is a bit of a challenge.

 

I'm assuming I must have stripped splines from one or more of the axle shafts, or maybe sheared a key somewhere. I'm just surprised that one time of rolling the car forward with the starter would cause damage, and I would think that stripped splines/a missing key would make it so the tires wouldn't spin at all, so I just don't know. My experience is in engines, not axles, so I really don't know how to go about getting started with diagnosing/fixing this problem. Does anyone have any thoughts?

 

Thanks,

Zach

 

Edited June 20, 2023 by zdillinger (see edit history)

[dalef62]

Good possibility that you did sheer the key in the axle.  Put it in gear and try pushing the car back and forth while watching the end of each axle.

[chistech]

Another way is to leave one rear wheel on the ground and the car in gear. Remove the hubcaps so you can see the axle nut and try turning the wheel. If the wheel turns and the axle nut doesn't, then you sheared the keyway. Pay attention to the friction felt in the system. If the nut turns, repeat the process on the other side. If the nut turns again but the friction is more than the other side, you can figure you probably broke an axle on the other side. If the friction is greater, than you probably have a broken axle on that side. As you said the left is turning with the car running you pretty much determined the passenger side is the culprit. Another way is with the car fully jacked up and in gear. Turning one rear wheel will usually result with the other side turning opposite if all is well. Dragging brakes do it harder to do all this. 

    I personally had a bad clunk in my 31 chevy. When I bought the car as a basket case, some things had been done and I was told by a friend of the deceased owner that the work was top notch. (My first foray into finding out just how many spectrums the phase "top notch" has. The motor was "fully restored perfectly" was one as it turns out only the head and pistons were done with the main babbit not in great shape. The chassis and wheels were all done, assembled and painted. Well it turns out the clunk was because the previous owner doing his "perfect work" had used terribly worn keyways on the rear hubs. I still don't understand why as both the axles and the hubs showed no real wear and two, new, full dimension keyways fixed my clunk. They were so worn that when the car was shifted from 1st to reverse and clutch engaged, you could see the axle nut rotate quite a bit. Though it's a bummer, it would have given you a problem down the road so it's better to get things sorted out now while your still in the restoration process. The thing I hate the most is having to go back into a car that I've believed was all set and ready to go down the road for a long time. It is part of the game though and unfortunately things like this rear their ugly head. Good luck my friend.

[Bloo]

4 hours ago, zdillinger said:

While running the car briefly without the cover, it appears that the differential is working properly. The gear teeth all appear nice and clean, no chips or missing teeth, etc., though seeing the drive pinion gear teeth is a bit of a challenge.

 

It may have broken an axle. Can you see the spider gears? They are the 4 little ones inside the case. "Case" is not what you might think. In differential jargon it is the piece with the ring gear bolted or riveted to it. It spins while you are moving. The stationary part is a "carrier".

 

Don't put too much stock in one wheel spinning and the other not spinning with both wheels off the ground. It might do that normally. Instead jack up only one wheel at a time. With the transmission in neutral, turn the wheel. The driveshaft should turn. If it's a torque tube and you can't see the shaft turning, no big deal, but the wheel should turn fairly easily. Then put the car in gear and try to turn the wheel. You should not be able to, at least not easily because you are turning the engine against compression. From your description it will probably just turn.

 

Now take the cover back off and watch the case. In normal operation. with one wheel on the ground, transmission in neutral, when you turn the other wheel you should see the case turning. Put it in gear and the case should now not turn. In normal operation, the differential will try to turn the wheel on the opposite side backward instead, but cannot because that wheel is on the ground, so it tries to turn the engine instead. Let the first wheel down, and jack up the other wheel and try that side.

 

If you have sheared a key or broken an axle, when you turn a wheel with the transmission in gear, the good side should be spinning the spider gears (inside the case) as you turn the wheel, and the bad side will not be able to. On the other hand, if the case can still turn with the transmission in gear, you have probably dropped some teeth off the drive pinion, or sheared a key at the pinion (if it has one).

 

EDIT: Chistech responded while I was typing. Try what he said first. It's easier.

 

Edited June 20, 2023 by Bloo (see edit history)

[zdillinger]

Thanks @dalef62, @chistech and @Bloo, you've given me some really good steps to take. Like I said, I'm comfortable with engine-related problems but differentials sometimes just seem like magic boxes to me. I suppose now is a good time to correct this oversight in my automotive education, especially since like Ted said, I'm still in the restoration process. It would have been a whole lot worse to have this happen (whatever has happened) somewhere other than my barn, so really I got lucky. 

[zdillinger]

Well.... pretty sure the passenger side axle shaft is broken. The axle nut spins with the wheel, I can see the shaft moving between the carrier and the case, but the splines end that goes into the spider gear does not turn at all, indicating that the end is no longer connected. Also, per Ted's test, I felt a significant amount of friction when turning the drivers wheel with it up in the air and the passenger wheel down, with almost no friction doing the opposite. 

 

I'm assuming that the axle shafts won't be able to be welded and that they will be difficult to find (like everything else for this car!). Guess I will just have to keep plugging along!

[zdillinger]

Breakage confirmed. The remaining stub is still in the spider gear. 

 

This will be a fun part to find....