1960 Ford generator - no charge - what am I missing?

[m-mman]

The car is a 1960 Ford (six cylinder) I cannot get it to charge. 3 different generators and 3 different regulators.  What have I missed?   What else can I check & test?

 

 

Ford generator so the field is externally grounded(?)  All wires clean and continuity tested between each end and to assure that they are going to the correct place in the car. (shop manual and Motors manual consulted)  Each Generator has been polarized. No output. Dash light is on but also checked by voltage at battery and connecting Amp meter per Ford simplified training booklet guide.

 

 

Generators are clean, excellent brushes that move freely and have new bearings.

 

Field coils have been checked by using Ohm meter and connecting battery voltage as described in training guidebook. With field ground wire removed there is continuity between field terminal and ground wire. (no open in field windings)  No grounded windings with voltage connected.  Connect the field ground terminal to case and ohm meter shows good connection between field terminal and case through the field coils.

 

 

I have no growler, so I assemble generator and “Motor test” (off car using jumper cables from battery)  negative ground cable to G (ground) field terminal and positive cable to output terminal (called Gen terminal or Armature terminal)

 

On one generator, the generator spins fast. Connect jumper from armature to field and spinning slows down

On the two others I connect positive cable to armature terminal and negative cable to G field terminal and generator “freezes”. The magnetism prevents spinning UNTIL I jump between field terminal and the armature terminal. Then it spins moderately. (Not as fast as the one above) This matches the description of what is supposed to happen in the Motors manual. 

 

Bolt any of the generators to the car and run engine. Connect wires as shown for output test. Jump for full field. (jumper wire between armature terminal and field terminal). Amp gauge shows full discharge.

What am I missing? What else can I check or test?

 

[Bloo]

Your book isn't showing a diagram of the system in question.

 

I have owned Fords of this period but never had charging trouble. I don't remember exactly how they work. There are 2 possibilities. Typically GM/Delco systems ground the field terminal to charge, and Ford/Autolite systems send voltage to the field terminal to charge. However, both brands have made systems both ways, so I have questions.

 

Has this car ever been charging normally while in your possession? Do we know it was working and then broke with these parts? Or could there be some wrong parts here?

 

Are the generators and regulators you are trying the correct type for this car for sure?

 

Could the wiring be breached somewhere in-between the generator and the battery?

 

Now with the questions out of the way, and the field wire disconnected from the generator, and the engine on a fast idle, you SHOULD be able to jumper 12 volts to the field terminal on the generator and the car should charge like crazy. You should hear the engine slow down, and you should see charge on the ammeter. Don't leave it hooked up unregulated like that for long. If it charges the generator is good. If not, there are some other things to check.

 

I never put that much faith in the "motoring" test, but I think both of them should have ran well with the field connected to the armature.

[Dandy Dave]

Agree with Bloo. I would check to see that the Armature wire is good from the generator to the amp meter. Also that the amp meter is good. And then from the amp meter to the battery. It is not uncommon in older systems that a wire will no longer conduct as it should. Dandy Dave! 

Edited June 9, 2022 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[Oldtech]

Are you checking with an external meter. The dash gage can "freeze" and not show anything when, in fact it is working. 

[m-mman]

15 hours ago, Bloo said:

Has this car ever been charging normally while in your possession? Do we know it was working and then broke with these parts? Or could there be some wrong parts here?

 

Are the generators and regulators you are trying the correct type for this car for sure?

 

Could the wiring be breached somewhere in-between the generator and the battery?

The car was an aborted 20 year old restoration attempt. It arrived in boxes. I have been sorting and installing parts for months. So, figure it is all new for this car. 

 

Absolutely al parts are 100% correct. I have and have had tons of 50s & 60s Fords and therefore have tons of parts.

Which is why after 3+swaps, I am surprised that I haven't gotten something to work 

 

I wondered about the wiring. It was all rolled up and stashed in a box on arrival. I installed it and have used an OHM meter to verify that nothing is broken in the harness. (I re-taped them and the plastic insulation was good with no cuts or damage)  I also used the shop manual wiring diagrams to verify that everything is connected in the right place. Everything else works on the car (key, switch, lights, etc.) This charging system is the only issue. (which makes it so frustrating) 

15 hours ago, Bloo said:

the field wire disconnected from the generator, and the engine on a fast idle, you SHOULD be able to jumper 12 volts to the field terminal on the generator and the car should charge like crazy.

Good suggestion. A direct 12v to the field.       Gosh, that SHOULD get a charge . . . or else!

 

13 hours ago, Oldtech said:

Are you checking with an external meter. The dash gage can "freeze" and not show anything when, in fact it is working. 

1960 Ford, The car only has a red GEN light. (which is on. . . ) 

The amp gauge I'm using is an old fashioned SW under the dash gauge. (goes to 60 amps!) that I am holding in my hand

The needle swings significantly, so it seems to be working. . . . . Good heavy gauge wires on it from when it was in a car years ago. 

 

The pos & neg hookups in the amp gauge in the 3rd picture is confusing. The neg amp lead gong to the positive side of the battery. . . .(?)

In this arrangement it shows a discharge and then a HUGE discharge when "full fielding". 

I cant imagine the Ford book making a typo about those connections.  

 

Back outside. I'll let you know what develops.  <Gosh darn, it shouldn't be this difficult> 

[Bloo]

34 minutes ago, m-mman said:

The pos & neg hookups in the amp gauge in the 3rd picture is confusing. The neg amp lead gong to the positive side of the battery. . . .(?)

In this arrangement it shows a discharge and then a HUGE discharge when "full fielding". 

I cant imagine the Ford book making a typo about those connections.

 

Yes, but what do you call positive and what do you call negative on an ammeter? I would call it Ford's way because the generator, when working, is more positive than the battery. That's pretty nebulous though. Who knows what the aftermarket gauge maker did. If it goes the wrong way reverse the leads.

 

I would clip a voltmeter across the battery and full field it again. If the voltage comes drastically up, that ammeter is backwards.

 

[m-mman]

This is getting curiousier and curiousier. . . . 

 

OK, Regulator connected, but field wire left off.  I "full fielded" it by running a jumper from the positive battery post to the field terminal on generator.

 

Voltage measured at the battery DROPPED from 12v to 11.5v. Tried several flashes on the battery post and each time it dropped(!) Once to 11v. 

 

Shut engine off and noticed that cutout relay was stuck and shorting the battery.  

Swapped another regulator and same results, including sticking the cutout . . . . 

In each case, I pulled the positive cable and it released the cutout. 

 

Reconnected the amp meter (per Ford instructions) and shows continued discharge. I swapped the connections (on amp meter) and needle swings to "charge" but that's just the polarity. It still has a discharge condition. 

 

Something, somewhere ain't right. 

<Arrrgggggg>   

 

FYI - I refuse to go to an alternator 

[Bloo]

There has to be something wrong in that generator. I say take it apart. Look for shorted windings. I know you said you don't have a growler but I got by without one for years. The old books all say to use a 110v test light (I am not advocating that). I tested at 12 volts for years and was never wrong once. Could I have been wrong? Yes, but I never was.

 

Take it apart and check for wires shorting to the case, etc. Check internal wiring to make SURE this is a 12v-to-charge generator. I'm 99% sure it should be, but make sure. One end of the field should be grounded and the other end connected to the field terminal. If it's wrong, one end of the field will be connected to the armature terminal (12v) not ground.

 

Disconnect the field from the case, check for continuity from one end to the other with a car batttery and a 12v test light in series. It should light. Then connect one end of your battery-and-test-light string to the case, and the other end to each end of the winding. Should not light. If it glows or lights up, that is a problem.

 

Then take the armature and connect one end of the test-light-and-car-battery string to the shaft, and probe every commutator segment with the other end. You should not see any glow or light.

 

Then, while you have it apart, in the interest of preventing future trouble, make sure there are no windings that have come loose from the varnish that could vibrate and short to ground in the near future.

 

 

[m-mman]

Whew. . . .Looks like I have my work cut out for me.

But heck I've tried everything else, so now gotta get down to the little details. 

[Bloo]

Not hard to do, and your tests pretty much confirm there is something wrong inside the generator.

[Dandy Dave]

Just maybe you need to switch the wires on the amp meter. It may be hooked up backward. Dandy Dave!

[m-mman]

On 6/9/2022 at 3:26 PM, Bloo said:

There has to be something wrong in that generator. I say take it apart. Look for shorted windings.

3 different generators. I disassembled all three and used the 12v test light as suggested. (good suggestion) 

 

All three tested as expected - continuity where there should be, and none where there should not be. 

After assembly they all motor as would be expected. But I still dont feel confident. (gun shy?) 

Still might like to have them proven on a test stand . . . . We'll see. 

 

Anyway, in an effort to make progress I pulled the carb for a kit so I wont be testing the electricals for a couple of days. 

[Frank DuVal]

How did you polarize the generator? Ford's directions or GM's?  If you used GM's directions, maybe the generator is putting out -12 volts! 😄 That would explain why full fielding it with a +12 volt lead caused he battery voltage to go lower.

[Frank DuVal]

You have a test stand. Connect leads to generator as if a test set, not the car's wiring. This is shown on page 6 of your book. Use engine to drive generator, like a test stand.

 

Yes, that ammeter shown on page 6 is connected correctly, as the generator should drive current into the battery when operating correctly.👍

 

The leads to that ammeter should be #10 awg or so, as it should drive 30 to 50 amps (depends on generator model as explained) into the battery. 6 cylinder low option car probably closer to 35 amps.

[Digger914]

60 years ago every shade tree mechanic knew how to polarize the voltage regulator and you wouldn't think it should make a difference with the wire going direct from gen to reg which end you hit with the +12 to polarize but chassis versus direct ground can make a difference ond I was taught to always polarize at the regulator. 

 

After that, a movie is worth a thousand words and you might find watching these short vids useful 

 

 

 

 

[Frank DuVal]

1 hour ago, Digger914 said:

60 years ago every shade tree mechanic knew how to polarize the voltage regulator

A common mistake. Voltage regulators are bought in the polarity needed. They cannot be changed in the field. 

 

The generator field coils are what need polarizing, so their residual magnetism will bootstrap the generator into working. This can be done with jumper wires going to the battery and generator. But, in the name of safety and using shorter jumper wire, the instructions have the jumper wire used across the connections at the voltage regulator. 👍

 

And there is an "A" circuit and a "B" circuit generator system. They polarize very differently. Using the incorrect method can have the generator outputing reverse voltage to the car.

[Digger914]

You're right Frank,

 

I should have written how to polarize (the Generator) at the voltage regulator and with those 2 words where they should have been, the chassis vs direct ground can cause problems would naturally lead to the first step of troubleshooting, which is polarizing at the generator and checking the ground, just in case it was the reason it didn't polarize the easy way. Not wanting to write a lengthy step by step how to I Googled and as I was crushing out my cigarette in my mid 1950's, 5 digit phone number Ford Sales & Service ashtray, I found the 1960 Ford 6 cyl generator video with a reverse voltage problem and the simplest way to identify and rectify a reversed polarity gen.

 

 

[Highlander160]

Well, I just installed an NOS regulator on a 12V Ford system (Continental MK II), no charge after. Oops, gotta zap the regulator. Disconnect the field wire from the regulator and flash from BAT to FLD. Put it back on, charging which was confirmed by the gauge and the headlights getting a wee bit more glow, but nothing like and alt does. Yes, regulators need polarizing with the FIELD wire removed. Talk about old school...🙄

[m-mman]

Polarization. . . Ok, this is the application of a small quick connection of power to the fields to "magnetize" the fields(?)   They are/should be already magnetized but this aligns the positive and the negative . . . .(?)

 

I think that's how I always knew it, BUT, in the little Falcon video the guy wasn't getting a charge, so he swapped the wires on the field????  (then it worked) Ok, what the heck was that about? 

He used the phrase "It was wired for a positive ground"

 

Did he have to do that? Could he have polarized his way out of it? 

 

I cant get to the garage for a couple of days but when I do I will take some pictures and a video to show you what I am dealing with.  I still have to build the carb before the car runs again, but in preparation I went back to motoring the 3 different generators. I get a different response from each with the same wire connections. 

 

Like the guy in the Falcon video said, this is no longer about fixing the car, it is a learning experience about the basics of a generator charging system. 

 

For documentation:  The polarizing instructions I have found (for this Ford design) is to either;

Remove the field wire from the regulator and momentarily touch it to the Bat terminal 

or

Use a jumper wire (even a screwdriver) to momentarily touch between the field terminal on the regulator and the Bat terminal on the regulator 

Edited June 14, 2022 by m-mman (see edit history)

[Frank DuVal]

3 hours ago, Highlander160 said:

Yes, regulators need polarizing

Yes, GENERATORS need polarizing.

 

IFIFY, as in I Fixed It For You.😉

 

That NOS regulator came out of the box ready for 12 volt negative ground service. You did nothing to the regulator in your polarizing method.

 

Why did it not work out of the box? The regulator did work, just due to whatever was going on with the charging system before you installed it made the generator loose its residual magnetism, therefore no voltage output that was useful. If the field coil pole pieces (steel) do not have any magnetism, or the magnetic charge is backwards polarity, the new NOS regulator cannot fix that! You must flash/polarize the generator field coils for the system to work!👍

 

Yes, the flashing/polarizing method is easier done at the regulator terminals, hence the misconception the regulator gets polarized.

[Highlander160]

Ok, old service book said remove field wire to polarize regulator so I did. It worked. 56 MK II. Thanks...

[Frank DuVal]

On 6/14/2022 at 12:06 PM, m-mman said:

Comments inserted below:

 

Polarization. . . Ok, this is the application of a small quick connection of power to the fields to "magnetize" the fields(?)   They are/should be already 

magnetized but this aligns the positive and the negative . . . .(?)

They are properly magnetized in a properly working generator, however, the residual magnetism can go away from non-use, incorrectly wiring the generator, putting the battery in backwards, etc. 

 

On 6/14/2022 at 12:06 PM, m-mman said:

 

I think that's how I always knew it, BUT, in the little Falcon video the guy wasn't getting a charge, so he swapped the wires on the field????  (then it worked) Ok, what the heck was that about? 

He used the phrase "It was wired for a positive ground"

The Ford generator of that time period has three terminals (as opposed to the GM Delco system of the time with two terminals). The field has two terminals, labeled Field (F) and Ground (G). If you swap these wires, you change the polarity of the generator. Hence he said wired for positive ground. I would have just said improperly wired!

 

Update, the G terminal is connected to generator case. So no swapping of wires should reverse polarity of this generator. Swapping the field wires should result in a short circuit of the voltage regulator output!

 

 

On 6/14/2022 at 12:06 PM, m-mman said:

 

Did he have to do that? Could he have polarized his way out of it? 

If the wiring was correct, i.e. the G terminal was connected to ground (at the regulator) then yes, polarizing the generator should have fixed it.

 

Update, the G terminal is grounded at the case, so correctly polarizing the generator field would have fixed it.

 

On 6/14/2022 at 12:06 PM, m-mman said:

 

I cant get to the garage for a couple of days but when I do I will take some pictures and a video to show you what I am dealing with.  I still have to build the carb before the car runs again, but in preparation I went back to motoring the 3 different generators. I get a different response from each with the same wire connections. 

"Motoring" is more proof of concept than comparison shopping. Different properly working generators can give different responses, but they all should turn.

 

 

On 6/14/2022 at 12:06 PM, m-mman said:

 

Like the guy in the Falcon video said, this is no longer about fixing the car, it is a learning experience about the basics of a generator charging system. 

 

For documentation:  The polarizing instructions I have found (for this Ford design) is to either;

Remove the field wire from the regulator and momentarily touch it to the Bat terminal 

or

Use a jumper wire (even a screwdriver) to momentarily touch between the field terminal on the regulator and the Bat terminal on the regulator 

I would do the remove and touch method. I also found similar on the internet:

 

I can outline the procedure for polarizing the thing. With the engine off, at the regulator, remove the field (F) wire and briefly touch it to the batt (B) connection. You should see a small bluish spark. Re-connect the field wire and you're done. This is per the shop manual.

Do not use a jumper wire - you can cause damage.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Frank DuVal (see edit history)

[m-mman]

4 minutes ago, Frank DuVal said:

The Ford generator of that time period has three terminals (as opposed to the GM Delco system of the time with two terminals). The field has two terminals, labeled Field (F) and Ground (G). If you swap these wires, you change the polarity of the generator. Hence he said wired for positive ground. I would have just said improperly wired!

 

 

4 minutes ago, Frank DuVal said:

If the wiring was correct, i.e. the G terminal was connected to ground (at the regulator) then yes, polarizing the generator should have fixed it.

 

Ok, what I am looking at - The Ford generator - 3 terminals 

1. Armature or generator  - (when everything working) power comes from here and is directed to the battery. This is the end goal.

 

2. F (field) terminal on the generator - this terminal is insulated from the generator case and winds and loops around one pole shoe (heavy magnet in the case) then is directed to the other heavy magnet in the case then it Terminates at the G (ground terminal). 

This terminal gets 12v intermittently from the Field terminal at the regulator and the quickly flashing 12v starts and stops the charging based on the vehicle needs. 

 

3. G (ground terminal) it receives the end of the long wire that has made many trips around the magnets and simply connects it to ground at the generator case. There is a wire from the harness that connects this directly to the mounting pad at the regulator.  

 

The polarizing procedure (however it is done) gives 12 volts to the F terminal and the current whips around the magnets and hits ground at the G terminal thereby magnetizing the heavy metal pieces in the generator case. 

 

When installed the generator is bolted to the engine and the ground cable is bolted to the engine and there is a small wire the connects the engine to the body and I know that you cant have too many ground wires, BUT is the wire from the G terminal back to the regulator mounting really necessary?

Yes I  know you cant have too many grounds, but as I see it the Ford generator is really "Just" a 2 wire generator with an additional ground wire. 

 

Polarizing procedure:

Would it not be possible to run a jumper from the positive battery cable to the F terminal on the generator and polarize it? 

Would it not be possible to polarize it on the bench by connecting the G terminal to a 12v battery and with another jumper making a momentary connection to the positive terminal? Polarize it off the car. 

 

If the Falcon guy had just done something similar to above, should not that have saved him the trouble of swapping a re-soldering the field wires?

 

I ask all this because I have been "polarizing" each generator as I installed them. . . . . 

 

 

[TerryB]

This is an Echlin two page wide guide for regulator installation and troubleshooting.  It is not dated.  Might be of some help.

 

[Bloo]

So many red herrings here!

 

3 hours ago, m-mman said:

2. F (field) terminal on the generator - this terminal is insulated from the generator case and winds and loops around one pole shoe (heavy magnet in the case) then is directed to the other heavy magnet in the case then it Terminates at the G (ground terminal). 

This terminal gets 12v intermittently from the Field terminal at the regulator and the quickly flashing 12v starts and stops the charging based on the vehicle needs. 

Yes

 

3 hours ago, m-mman said:

3. G (ground terminal) it receives the end of the long wire that has made many trips around the magnets and simply connects it to ground at the generator case. There is a wire from the harness that connects this directly to the mounting pad at the regulator.  

At this point I am finally 100% sure what we are looking at. I thought so, but sold my last early 60s Ford decades ago. 12v to the field terminal makes the generator go full bore. 

 

3 hours ago, m-mman said:

Yes I  know you cant have too many grounds, but as I see it the Ford generator is really "Just" a 2 wire generator with an additional ground wire. 

That is correct.

 

3 hours ago, m-mman said:

Would it not be possible to run a jumper from the positive battery cable to the F terminal on the generator and polarize it? 

Yes, and you did it back in post 7, as seen below.

 

On 6/9/2022 at 2:52 PM, m-mman said:

OK, Regulator connected, but field wire left off.  I "full fielded" it by running a jumper from the positive battery post to the field terminal on generator.

I don't see any way that the generator could still be not polarized.

 

3 hours ago, m-mman said:

Would it not be possible to polarize it on the bench by connecting the G terminal to a 12v battery and with another jumper making a momentary connection to the positive terminal? Polarize it off the car. 

In theory, yes. In practice, generators seem(?) to sometimes lose polarization after being banged around from removal installation, etc. and that is one reason it is advised to always polarize before trying to start the car.

 

4 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

putting the battery in backwards, etc. 

Now THAT will screw up the polarization for sure!

 

4 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

Why did it not work out of the box? The regulator did work, just due to whatever was going on with the charging system before you installed it made the generator loose its residual magnetism, therefore no voltage output that was useful. If the field coil pole pieces (steel) do not have any magnetism, or the magnetic charge is backwards polarity, the new NOS regulator cannot fix that! You must flash/polarize the generator field coils for the system to work!👍

 

Yes, the flashing/polarizing method is easier done at the regulator terminals, hence the misconception the regulator gets polarized.

Yes. Exactly this.

 

3 hours ago, m-mman said:

BUT is the wire from the G terminal back to the regulator mounting really necessary?

That probably depends on who you ask. For predicatble results you would absolutely want the generator and regulator to be seeing the same voltage. Without a wiring diagram of the whole generator and regulator system I can't even make a good guess about possible effects of a resistive ground. For example though, if the charging voltage is being sampled at the regulator, and it probably is, resistance in the ground would change the charging voltage. It might also increase hysteresis in the voltage regulator relay, slowing it's response and causing more than normal flickering in the headlights.

 

Good on Ford for putting this wire in. If I am building a wiring harness for anything with an external regulator, I always include it, generator or alternator, and no matter who made the charging system. It insures reliable regulation over the long term. The only potential downside I see is on a car that grounds one battery cable to the frame or body. If the big strap that connects the frame or body to the engine were to become disconnected, and someone tried to start the car, that little wire would try to carry the starter current. It would go off like a flashbulb. I am pretty sure the battery cable goes right to the engine on a 1960 Ford so this wouldn't apply.

 

On 6/12/2022 at 8:54 PM, Frank DuVal said:

A common mistake. Voltage regulators are bought in the polarity needed. They cannot be changed in the field. 

Err.... sort of. That used to be true, when auto parts were expected to work for a few years. The manufacturers tailored the precious metals used in the points and so on for maximum life. Not anymore. New production electromechanical regulators make no distinction between negative and positive ground. I have yet to hear even ONE positive review. Fortunately the old ones typically still work, and are often repairable if they don't.

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Frank DuVal]

On 6/14/2022 at 1:31 PM, m-mman said:

When installed the generator is bolted to the engine and the ground cable is bolted to the engine and there is a small wire the connects the engine to the body and I know that you cant have too many ground wires, BUT is the wire from the G terminal back to the regulator mounting really necessary?

Yes I  know you cant have too many grounds, but as I see it the Ford generator is really "Just" a 2 wire generator with an additional ground wire. 

From the pictures I see from Googling Ford generator (and other words trying to get an internal schematic of the Ford generator) the G terminal is NOT connected to the generator body. It is an insulated terminal. That is why the G terminal needs to be connected to the ground terminal of the voltage regulator, as the generator will not operate without this ground connection. I could be wrong about this, as I do not have a 12 volt Ford generator around here. 6 volt 3 brush, yes.😉

 

Update: pictures of M-mman show the G terminal is connected to case. So, it should charge even with the G terminal disconnected, just not as well as when it is grounded to the voltage regulator frame.

 

 

A good picture or schematic showing the G terminal grounded to the case of the generator will throw water all over what I just said, and I would like to see that if true, as I do not like stating wrong facts!😉

Edited June 16, 2022 by Frank DuVal (see edit history)

[Bloo]

I'm pretty sure it is connected to the case. I don't have one to look at either.  

 

Here's a 61 Thunderbird schematic someone posted on fordmuscleforums.com. I think I see a ground symbol at the case. There's also a schematic of the regulator, though it looks like they have the relays labeled wrong. Top to bottom it's Cutout, Current Regulator, Voltage Regulator.

 

Edited June 15, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Frank DuVal]

I do see the little ground symbol on the case of the generator in that schematic. Could be what I am seeing as an insulator is a steel flat washer in the pictures on the internet.🤔

 

Update, must have been a flat washer, as m-mman's pictures show the G terminal is connected to the generator case.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Frank DuVal (see edit history)

[Bloo]

I think so, and that is what I remember from a couple of cars I owned. I looked all over for a picture like you did. It was inconclusive.

[m-mman]

I worked today getting the carb assembled so now that it runs and starts easily I went back to the generator. 

 

I'll start at the ending, it now charges!! <hooray!>   However I still dont know why, or why it wouldn't before.

 

Pictures are always good. 

 

 

This is a Ford generator.

The end plate with the brushes. One brush is grounded to the end plate and one is insulated from the end plate connecting to the Armature/Generator terminal. Nothing special.

 

The armature. Typical design. Two bearings, one on the end, one bearing supporting the front end 

 

The case/field. Again exactly what would be expected. A cylinder with the fields bolted to the inside. One continuous wire starting at the F terminal looping around one field them continuing to the other field then terminating at the G terminal. 

 

To answer the questions. the F terminal IS insulated from the case the G terminal is NOT. Hey, it is just a ground point. This is where a wire attaches and connects it to the mounting plate on the regulator base.

 

Bloo, thanks for mentioning that this ground would be needed because to ground through the block and other cables and wires would give a varied resistance and that would affect the charging rate. Makes sense. 

 

Mounting the generator. This is a 223 six cylinder and the generator mounts on the drivers side. You see the adjustment arm for the fan belt. You cant see the pivot bolts they are on the bottom. 

But does anything seem strange?  Where are the wires mounting? Where are the terminals?  They are on the bottom. Very difficult to get to.

I am thinking . . . IF you could just spin the case (it is held by two symmetrical bolts) You could have the terminal on the topside where it would be easy to connect the wires. 

 

 

Yes this can easily be done.  In this picture are two generators, one assembled with the terminals on the top side and one with the terminals on bottom side. 

 

You can see the side with the two mounting ears for the pivot bolts are opposite from the electrical terminals. 

 

Three generators. Two that came with the car and one I had in my parts bin. I cant remember exactly how they were assembled when I started on them but they have been taken apart and put back together many, many times. A few to check and clean the innards and other times to do all the testing that was described above. Typically I assembled them such that the terminals would be on the top side. 

 

I bolt them to the engine and POLARIZE them as discussed above. 

First generator test today -  No charge(!) I check the armature terminal with a 12v test light and nothing(!)  Huh? nothing? really???  I give up. I have opened and looked at this generator too many times so I remove it and replace it with the other generator. 

 

Second generator - This one was off the shelf and it happened to be assembled with the terminals on the bottom side. More difficult to attach the wires (upside down) but I was sick of opening these generators up, so I connected the wires making sure that the G and F wires were on the proper terminals.  Again I polarize and start the engine expecting a no charge situation 

 

SURPRISE!! Its charging!!!   <hooray>  I guess this generator works (who knows why, but I am happy) BUT the wires are on the bottom . . . . Hummmmmmm. Since it charges I have proven that it works, I'll just remove it and rotate the case so the terminals are on top. 

 

I do this, reinstall, repolarize and NO CHARGE!! WTH???   

 

BUT it did charge with the wires on the bottom. . . . Hummmmmm . . . . I take generator number one (the one that would not charge a moment ago) rotate its case so that the terminals are on the bottom, reinstall and repolarize it and IT CHARGES!!! (with the wire terminals on the bottom)

 

When both generators were charging I did perform a Full Field (jumper wire between the F terminal and the armature terminal) and they both began climbing as high as 14 volts before I pulled the jumper. So when it is in a charging configuration, it seems to be functioning just like the many testing protocols say it should.

I ran out of time to do any amp testing. Maybe this weekend. 

 

Now I am really confused.  I am happy that it is charging, but what gives? 

During the reassembly, each time I was careful to verify that the case bolts did not touch the field wires. (they are very close of course) 

 

So, how can rotating the fields/case stop it from charging?

 

[Frank DuVal]

This is called "clocking" the case and is common even in alternators to get the terminals in easy to access places. 

 

Why does clocking affect the charging? Maybe the brushes are not long enough or the brush holders are not allowing the brushes to move freely.  They work sometimes, other times they don't touch the armature commutator. Or, one of the wires attaching to the generator has a break in it and gets pulled open at some point or reaching a terminal.

 

Say, looking at the picture you provided:

There is just one dimple in the case and one tab on the endbell (brush end of generator), so how is clocking possible? I cannot see the other end of the case or the rest of the driven end endbell. To make clocking work with tabs and dimples, usually there is another dimple or two for the tab to rotate into. 

 

Note to those following along, I was wrong in thinking the G terminal was insulated from the case. Maybe I should go back and edit my posts...  Done!

Edited June 16, 2022 by Frank DuVal (see edit history)

[m-mman]

Yes there are dimples in a Ford generator.  The case has a notch in it like you noted. The cast front bearing support has a small hole drilled in it and SOMETIMES there is a small pin in it that fills the dimple.  

however when the pin is typically missing, the case to front plate can be seated in any clock position. 

the stamped end brush plate has a dimple that can line up with the case BUT the stamped dimple is small and if rotated/clocked 180 degrees doesn’t exactly line up by it will still set flat enough within tolerances to bolt up. 
 

the main thing about clocking a Ford generator is lining up the holes in the end plate, the tapped holes in the front bearing support and ensuring that the case is turned that allows the two long bolts to connect them by passing through the free area next to the field coils. 
again it ain’t real precise where the dimples are located such that it is difficult or impossible to change the clocking. 
But I have never had that affect the operation. 

[Bloo]

Something has to be making a bad connection. I see no way for it to make any difference. Also, I am 99% sure those terminals were up on my 1961 352.

[m-mman]

9 hours ago, Bloo said:

Something has to be making a bad connection. I see no way for it to make any difference.

Well we are in agreement.  But on TWO different generators???   Bizarre.  

At least I know there is a light at the end of the tunnel. My diagnostics on the parts showed all was well, I feel a little better about that.

 

Maybe I'll experiment with the third generator. Could it have the same same issue??

 

9 hours ago, Bloo said:

Also, I am 99% sure those terminals were up on my 1961 352.

Yes, and this would be because on a FE motor (352, 390) the generator is on the passenger side. As they are on the Y-blocks too (292-312) 

 

I have never considered that there was a specific "6 cylinder" generator  . . . . I have always just figured that one would change the clocking. This might drive me back to scour the parts books. 

[Frank DuVal]

11 hours ago, m-mman said:

the stamped end brush plate has a dimple that can line up with the case BUT the stamped dimple is small and if rotated/clocked 180 degrees doesn’t exactly line up by it will still set flat enough within tolerances to bolt up. 

It's the "within tolerance" comment that might explain the brushes not seating properly, as they are attached to the endbell, not the case like on other makes. A slight tilt and there goes the connection (brush to commutator).

[Bloo]

Are your threaded holes and bolt sizes lining up in the right place when you clock it? Many alternators are clockable, but generally speaking I don't think generators are. I would expect them to use different end bells for different applications like opposite side of the engine, or upside down mounting with the adjuster on the bottom, etc.

[Bloo]

47 minutes ago, Frank DuVal said:

12 hours ago, m-mman said:

the stamped end brush plate has a dimple that can line up with the case BUT the stamped dimple is small and if rotated/clocked 180 degrees doesn’t exactly line up by it will still set flat enough within tolerances to bolt up. 

It's the "within tolerance" comment that might explain the brushes not seating properly, as they are attached to the endbell, not the case like on other makes. A slight tilt and there goes the connection (brush to commutator).

 

Wait what?! Yeah, I think that would do it.

 

1 hour ago, m-mman said:

 

I have never considered that there was a specific "6 cylinder" generator  . . . . I have always just figured that one would change the clocking. This might drive me back to scour the parts books.

 

Sounds like a good plan.

 

[Oldtech]

You can't just flip the endplate half a turn and put the brushes in the opposite holders. One brush holder is grounded and one is insulated from the frame. It has to be oriented correctly. 

[m-mman]

35 minutes ago, Oldtech said:

You can't just flip the endplate half a turn and put the brushes in the opposite holders

Look at the picture. In application the brushes are affixed to the end plate and their orientation (related to wiring) doesn’t change if turned 180 degrees.  

[roysboystoys]

I'm struggling with rotation, but can't see hanging it upside down affects anything. 

If there are only two field coils it shouldn't matter?

But maybe the polarity has to be switched?

Been a long time since the 60's when I had to figure this stuff out.

It would interesting to see if parts books list a different generator for 6 and 8 cylinder.