1960 Ford generator - no charge - what am I missing?

[Frank DuVal]

Except for the cocking of the end plate/ end bell due to the tab sitting high instead of in a groove, rotating it is no different electrically/magnetically than simply turning the pulley and therefore rotating the armature.  

 

This is is a great thread about Ford generators.👍

[m-mman]

3 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

This is is a great thread about Ford generators.👍

Thanks Frank,  I thought I understood Ford generators. This experience has been a good review and learning experience.

For future reference, I will summarize the issues about clocking a Ford generator below.  

[m-mman]

 

As noted most Ford generators mount on the passenger side. (FE, Y-block) but on the 223 six it mounts on the driver's side. 

 

 

 

I checked the parts book looking for things that might make a 6 cylinder generator unique but I did not find anything.  There were lots of parts related to amp output, but nothing about 6 cylinder changes. 

 

I asked a good friend about 6 cylinder parts and without knowing my problem he said that he thought the end plate was different. Which makes sense as you will see, but again I couldn't find it in my parts books. 

[m-mman]

The parts of a Ford generator related to "clocking".

I keep mentioning Ford generator as there are also Delco generators and they are not the same. 

 

The generator case. The fields are bolted to the sides. The Field or F terminal is insulated at the case. The wire then wraps around one field then continues to the other field ending at the Ground or G terminal. This terminal is not insulated it is a ground point and connects to the case. The space between the fields is where the two bolts penetrate to hold everything together. 

 

You will note the wires coming from off the ends of the fields They are well insulated in this rebuilt generator. Commonly they have lost their insulation (sometimes just lacquer) and when assembling you will have to make sure that they dont touch the "hold together" bolts.  

 

 

 

The case (where the fields attach) has a notch in it. There is one on both ends.  These notches line up with "things" on the end plates to insure alignment during assembly. 

 

This is the front plate (bearing retainer per the parts book) Notice the little bump?  That is a pin stuck in a hole. Sometimes the pin is there and sometimes not.

 

 

Here the pin is missing from the hole. I have found the pin missing more times that it is there. No big deal really. 

Edited June 17, 2022 by m-mman (see edit history)

[m-mman]

When assembling you line up the pin (or the hole) with the notch in the case.  

 

 

Here it is all lined up ON THE FRONT. The rear is different. 

 

 

The rear plate is stamped, not cast. It has a small bump on it.  (seen at the edge here)

It should be noted that this end plate being stamped not cast means that it has some give and can bend slightly. 

 

 

When everything is lined up, the dimple in the end plate stamping fits into the notch of the case. 

HOWEVER to line up the two notches on the case with the bumps and pins on the front and rear plates puts the two F & G terminals in a position where they point DOWN on a 6 cylinder.  

 

Can you rotate things around and assemble it with the terminals facing up?

The front is no problem if the pin is missing the case will easily fit properly against the shoulder on the front plate.  

It is the REAR that seems to be the problem. 

 

 

Here is one view. With the endplate oriented to put the terminals up for a 6 cylinder you see the notch on the case lined up with nothing on the end plate. (no problem) 

 

 

Here you see the bump on the end plate has nothing to push into on the case. So, it is protruding slightly. The end plate is NOT 100% flat against the case. No big deal right??

 

I dont know. Is this misalignment enough to alter the brush to commutator contact such that it results in a no charge situation??

In my experience with this car, it seems to have been enough, and was the cause of my no charge symptoms. 

Edited June 17, 2022 by m-mman (see edit history)

[m-mman]

There was a question about rotating the end plate and the wires. These views of the end plate should illustrate that the end plate is self contained. One brush is grounded to the end plate and the other is insulated from it. That brush connects with the Armature or Generator terminal on the end plate. 

 

So ELECTRICALLY it can be oriented in any position. 

[m-mman]

And because everybody likes to see the entire car not just the parts, here it is 

 

A 1960 Edsel 2 door sedan.  A nothing car really.  An Edsel enthusiast took it completely apart over 20 years ago, "to completely restore it", you know the story.  Completely disassembled stored in boxes inside the car and garage.  A rebuilt motor in the garage.

Nobody would invest the time and effort to assemble the puzzle. 

 

My friend wanted a cheap 60 Edsel but he knew that he did not have the experience to assemble it. I have been working with these types of cars for 50+ years I do know them, and most importantly didn't need the instruction sheet to get it back together.  (which is always missing on disassembled projects. 

 

A POS, painted with a brush, seat springs Junker, the decision was made to just fix it and "drive it around" NOT do a full restoration. 

So we have been doing mostly reassembly, restoration and rebuilding just to make it 100% safe and reliable. 

 

Something people always say they want to do, then it degrades into an expensive restoration.  But my friend and I know that Edsels just arent worth all that work.  We are doing it just for the fun of it. 

 

Edited June 17, 2022 by m-mman (see edit history)

[JACK M]

What a cool car....

As for the generator, I can see the reasons you cannot clock the ends. I do believe that even the smallest humps or valleys will misalign the brushes.

Twer it me I would be be doing some grinding and bumping until it fits.

HOWEVER, just a car for fun who cares if the thing is up side down. This just gives a reason to keep eyes open at the swap meets.

Did I tell you that I like this car? I can see the stick levers on the column. Perfect.

[m-mman]

1 minute ago, JACK M said:

I can see the stick levers on the column. Perfect.

Thanks, 

Factory 6 & stick.  Edsel didnt offer OD but we added it, so that should make it better. 

I am a big fan of the B-W overdrive set up. 

[roysboystoys]

Nice tutorial. ( Always wanted to use that word)

Seems like at least part of the brush would contact the armature , even with that bump.

And one side tight should be enough ground.

I notice one photo , you have the terminals of the case at the fan end.

Did you do that just to see if we were paying attention?

I'm glad it's working , still wonder why the other two aren't/ didn't work.

Seems like you have plenty of other things to do.

Paint brushes and tractor supply paint are still reasonable.

You can repaint that for $100.

Thanks again

[m-mman]

1 hour ago, roysboystoys said:

I notice one photo , you have the terminals of the case at the fan end.

Yeah, I noticed that after I took the pictures this morning for posting.  😊

Rest assured that it was assembled correctly for use. 😎

 

EDIT: I just used the amp meter and tested it. (Per the instructions posted previously) and when full fielded, it is putting out 30 amps  

Edited June 17, 2022 by m-mman (see edit history)

[NailheadBob]

I love your details and pictures along the way, great job,  and for everyone along the way that added to this post. I also agree with the brushes making full contact. We had a local successful stock car driver, Ted Musgrave, that moved to the Carolina's made a career driving stock cars with Nascar, once he "made it" with Nascar he started to collect and restore Edsels and from what I was told he had a fairly size amount of cars.

 

Bob

[m-mman]

OK one more Ford generator story to add to this data source.  

 

Years ago (1970s) a friend was in the Marine Corps. On bases they commonly have hobby shop where you can tinker with your car. 

 

He bought from another Marine, a 1951 Ford truck (flathead V-8 original 6 volt) The other Marine had fixed a bunch of stuff on it but it needed an engine.   My friend rebuilt the engine and all was good EXCEPT . . . 

 

Periodically it would just quit charging. The generator had been rebuilt and it had a new regulator.

All it took to get it charging again was to polarize it.  Like all the time! 

He was having to stop every 10-15 miles and polarize it and when he did all was good but just for just a short time. 

Eventually he ran wires to a switch on the dash and whenever it quit charging, he would "flash it" and bam, charging again. (yeah a polarize switch on the dash) WTH???  

 

Eventually he discovered that when the other Marine had rebuilt the generator in the hobby shop and when he had turned the armature he did not have it chucked up correctly. The commutator was not concentric with the shaft. When operating the brushes were bouncing on the "unbalanced" commutator.  When they got enough speed and bounce they would fly off the commutator and the generator would lose its field. . . . Wow, how strange is that??

 

He eventually either turned the commutator correctly, or got another one, but as soon as the brushes weren't bouncing away from the armature every was fine. 

[NailheadBob]

I DO NOT want to steal a post, BUT I think this a neat tool:

"Rite Tool Commutator Truing and Undercutting Tool"

 

 If this post would have been here before yours, "This may fit into your article also ",

 

Bob

[Oldtech]

19 hours ago, m-mman said:

Look at the picture. In application the brushes are affixed to the end plate and their orientation (related to wiring) doesn’t change if turned 180 degrees.  

OKAY I get it now, The connection is on the endplate.