Jump to content

Locomobile Custom Body info. and pictures


alsfarms
 Share

Recommended Posts

Great Chadwick photo. Fleetwood built a ton of cars on chassis across the spectrum. Most of it above average in styling. Always excellent construction. For the amount they built pre 1929 you rarely see any of the early stuff. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks George, I learned something!  I did not know that Fleetwood built bodies early on as evidenced by the Chadwick.  I am much more familiar with bodies from the late 1920's to the mid 1930's and mostly GM.

Al

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Great book on the history of Fleetwood by Jim Schild was published a few years ago.

I have a fair amount of Fleetwood photos from the early teens when they were thriving with business from the European cars that were imported as chassis into NY City , the port of NY. Less import tax for a bare chassis as it was not a complete car. That is another major story that needs to be written - European cars and dealers in the USA prior to the Great depression and who and where the dealers were. Isotta Fraschini even published its own sales catalog here in the USA . SO many stories that have never been told, and the people involved to put it all together , most who disappeared before WWII, "major players" who need to be recognized.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Walt G said:

Great book on the history of Fleetwood by Jim Schild was published a few years ago.

I have a fair amount of Fleetwood photos from the early teens when they were thriving with business from the European cars that were imported as chassis into NY City , the port of NY. Less import tax for a bare chassis as it was not a complete car. That is another major story that needs to be written - European cars and dealers in the USA prior to the Great depression and who and where the dealers were. Isotta Fraschini even published its own sales catalog here in the USA . SO many stories that have never been told, and the people involved to put it all together , most who disappeared before WWII, "major players" who need to be recognized.

Do you know when the badge on the cover of this reprint book was first used? The book looks wonderful. As to Frank’s question in regards to the badged lights have ever seen such a use of a builders tag?20D48327-EC3D-4B28-9863-37C25E072AC9.jpeg.c1889a240b96ff56b0e8f4b47e27d3cf.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Having been around much to long........any time I see something I have never seen before, I will always question it. Doesn’t mean it’s not correct. Fleetwood was proud of their work, and rightly so...........would they ever put body badges on headlights...........nope......and unless I see photos of them on it when the car was new, I don’t buy it. Most likely a early restoration or clean up and they were added by an enthusiastic and proud owner.....without thinking it out. The new problem.......they can now be considered “part of the car” after fifty plus years. If it was my car......I would probably remove them. In reality.....if the current owner likes them, why not leave them. In my entire life I have only seen one correct car with three body tags..........and I will be showing it at Amelia next week. Stop by and see the car with three tags.........

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/22/2022 at 12:47 AM, edinmass said:

Frank......I have owned Fleetwood bodied cars since 1982(early big cars), have looked at countless cars, and they just simply look very out of place. Best guess is they were done fifty years ago. I would expect riveted attachment. Just doesn’t look or feel right........to me they seem out of place. In my entire life, never came across anything remotely similar. I could be wrong...........but certain things just don’t fit. Fleetwood tags on lights makes no sense.

Dear Ed, thanks a lot for your comments and your judgement based on so many years with these cars. I fully agree: Coachbuilder tags on headlamps make no real sense. That's the reason why I had not realized before that it is the tag of the fleetwood body building company. I thought it might be another accessory manufacturing company named Fleetwood, but I was wrong.

Have these lamps been factory-fitted? Unfortunately I cannot look back into 105 years history. I have been able to trace some history back into the 60s, but not more until now. Maybe this forum may help to get more information about this specific car?

Edited by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sadly, unless someone keeps impeccable records, or has a famous name, many automobile histories are lost to time as early on most automobiles were simply a tool of transportation, (even the big heavy Locomobiles and Pierce-Arrows). My 1909 Locomobile fits into the category of being owned by one family all its life. However, some aspects of its long history are lost because it was simply an "old car" for almost two generations and painfully stripped some during the scrap metal drives of WW2.  I am hoping to be in a position to study records at the Bridgeport Library sometime and see if any record exists that may give early ownership and historical information on the 1925 Locomobile 48 Demarest Limousine.  My learning of custom coach built bodies continues......

Al

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Look for early history in the VMCCA..........and early AACA magazines. You will probably find something. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, edinmass said:

Having been around much to long........any time I see something I have never seen before, I will always question it. Doesn’t mean it’s not correct. Fleetwood was proud of their work, and rightly so...........would they ever put body badges on headlights...........nope......and unless I see photos of them on it when the car was new, I don’t buy it. Most likely a early restoration or clean up and they were added by an enthusiastic and proud owner.....without thinking it out. The new problem.......they can now be considered “part of the car” after fifty plus years. If it was my car......I would probably remove them. In reality.....if the current owner likes them, why not leave them. In my entire life I have only seen one correct car with three body tags..........and I will be showing it at Amelia next week. Stop by and see the car with three tags.........

Dear Ed, what is your meaning of "three body tags"? Where are they, what tags are these?

About Locos, I learnd that they usually didn't mention the coachbuilder anywhere (create the impression that the complete car was made in the Bridgeport factory), but on some cars there are excemptions, such as these:

1. The 1919 six-fender Demarest town car has a small "Demarest" plate attached to the sill which might have been fitted at a later time? The headlights are the drum type, but slightly different to mine.

2. The 1918 Pershing tourer has one tag "designed by Locomobile custom body dept." on the body, behind the left engine hood. And the same wording is stamped onto the shell of the headlamps, which are the same drum type as on the town car.

3. The blue 1917 model 48 Sedan which is very similar to my black Sedan, shows the information "Designed by Locomobile Custom Body Dep't" and then the key point: "built by Brewster & Co." The same sill plate on mine (same brass profile, same size) is just plain, without words stamped on it. Only the body number 3669 is stamped into the driver entry side. By the way, this is the only car I have found which has the same drum type headlamp as my 1917 tourer (same shape of back, hinge, fixing ponts and same knob for opening), but different glass corrugation orientation (which is just a matter of assembly) and no tag on top.

What do you say about that?

autowp.ru_locomobile_model_48_6-fender_town_car_by_a.t._demarest_3.jpg

bonhams 8.jpg

bonhams 11.jpg

3b7fd8aa36f9ac4bf97609c7dfcd3481.jpg

12.jpg

13.jpg

3b7fd8aa36f9ac4bf97609c7dfcd3481 (2).jpg

aussen 12690997-locomobile-48-rgang-1917.jpg

innen 39E90FAB4BBBCFB33EAD2CCC5F4BDF7E.jpg

detail 21D2D46A0B2D20AB86085E09CC89E645.jpg

detail 8905E0A02762596111A3DA5B23E59FA6.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/22/2022 at 10:27 PM, George K said:

Do you know when the badge on the cover of this reprint book was first used? The book looks wonderful. As to Frank’s question in regards to the badged lights have ever seen such a use of a builders tag?20D48327-EC3D-4B28-9863-37C25E072AC9.jpeg.c1889a240b96ff56b0e8f4b47e27d3cf.jpeg

Dear George,

does this book say or show anything about their use of the FLEETWOOD symbol? Did they produce open tourer bodies for Locomobile? Can you find cars with the drum type headlamps as on my Tourer in your book? Until yesterday I thought the body was made by Locomobile inhouse, but now I start wondering. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/22/2022 at 1:26 PM, George K said:

Frank this must be your 1917.29B71CC8-2C21-4F22-94A9-BED6931F8FB6.jpeg.78ef69b4f6c3a276ba76f5b4200b3558.jpeg

Yes, you are right. The photo must have been taken at least 15, perhaps even 20 years ago by the previous owner in Germany. Comparing with older photos from his family photo file, you see the only work/modification he did during the 30 years of ownership: he added the little indicator lights for the German TÜV which he placed near the Westinghouse air springs.

Edited by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Frank.....three body tags.

 

 

I have seen many cars with two cowl tags as one would expect. I have seen a few cars with just one cowl tag. Many cars have door sill plates that have the coach builders name. Thus it’s “normal” to see a car with two cowl tags and door sill plates with thr coach builders name in them. We have a one off New York Auto Show car that has two cowl tags, and another tag on the rear built in trunk. We will be showing the car at Amelia, coming out for the first time in years......freshly done and put back correctly to as delivered configuration. Cant disclose the car yet.......after the sho, I will post some photos. It has a fantastic story. 
 

One builder here put body tags on the inside of the car........Brunn. It’s common to see open Brunn cars with one or two interior tags..........

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
Link to comment
Share on other sites


Frank.....certain cars and certain years are easier to generalize than others. When it comes to Loco’s I hesitate to comment in broad terms......frankly they did so much unique and custom stuff using so many sources it’s hard to keep a perspective on it all. Using years of experience........you learn to trust your eye.........and the tags on your headlights just don’t add up. That said, would I remove them? Probably not......unless they bother me......which, if it was my car they probably would. So, I would take them off if it was mine. It’s a great car.....doesn’t need any embellishments...........I find good cars stand well by themselves..........it’s a past owner who felt some impulsive need to add to a car that was already perfect in my opinion. I particularly like closed cars, and our museum has some of the best closed examples on the planet. One buys what we find or is available.....but for many years closed cars were passed over......not anymore. Your car only has to make you happy...........it sure looks like a nice car in the photos, and I would own it in ten seconds if it were offered to me.......

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On the subject of Locomobile custom bodies.  Please take a close look at the following picture of my Locomobile Demarest Limousine at the left side of the windshield.  Who can provide me with pictures of what was designed to be mounted into those holes.  I have a bit of a mystery going here.  Would it be some kind of a visor that would move with the windshield.  For some reason, I just don't think so.  Your thoughts pleàse.

Al

IMG_20210630_142233539_HDR.jpg.cdb6146d603bf23e109b9fbd3ea2b1b6.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/23/2022 at 5:22 PM, Ittenbacher Frank said:

Dear George,

does this book say or show anything about their use of the FLEETWOOD symbol? Did they produce open tourer bodies for Locomobile? Can you find cars with the drum type headlamps as on my Tourer in your book? Until yesterday I thought the body was made by Locomobile inhouse, but now I start wondering. 

Frank I don’t own a copy of that book. Just nicked the photo because it had your style badge. Wish I could help. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have the book, remind me after Amelia next week and I will see what I can find.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Who can post some very good close-up detail pictures of the profile of running board trim used on Locomobiles.  I assume that different body builders had the latitude to source trim that they choose.  I doubt that Locmobile had a list of qualifying parts that must be used regardless of the body builder.  I would like to compare what was original and see what materials is the closest to the original.

Al

Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, alsfarms said:

Who can post some very good close-up detail pictures of the profile of running board trim used on Locomobiles.  I assume that different body builders had the latitude to source trim that they choose.  I doubt that Locmobile had a list of qualifying parts that must be used regardless of the body builder.  I would like to compare what was original and see what materials is the closest to the original.

Al

Alan, see these photos. Aluminum with brass L-profile on the 1917 tourer, Linoleum with the same style brass profile on the 1921 Sedan. Pls note: Each car has covered the driver's floorboards with the same material. The L is app. 17,5mm wide with four ribs on top, and 27mm high on the smooth vertical part. Let me know if you need more detals or dimensions.

DSCN1196.JPG

DSCN1307.JPG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is a Locomobile custom body question or two.  How typical is it to have an external visor attached over the top of the windshield on a late series Locomobile 48 enclosed body automobile.  I simply do not have a large number of original factory photographs to look through.  Would this potential visor have been leather covered over a metal framework?

Al

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, prewarnut said:

I found a photo of a limo from Estonia online with what looks like a leather or fabric visor. It probably doesn't have screw holes in the same place but an interesting arrangement....https://www.ufo-garage.com/

locom.webp

Thanks, for the picture.  It would be nice to see a breakdown of that visor.

Al

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/6/2022 at 12:51 AM, alsfarms said:

Thanks, for the picture.  It would be nice to see a breakdown of that visor.

Al

This is the Sedan which I used as reference a few times in recent posts. The owners are really nice, they supported me with details of their jump seats in a really great manner. This car shows the "BREWSTER" tag on the body. The fixing points for the sun visor are similar to my Sedan but different to the holes on Alan's car.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Hello Frank,

Thanks for your post.  I am still stymied when thinking about the visor or lack thereof on my Demarest Locomobile.  The holes in the windshield structure certainly suggest that I need to build a visor.  The unrestored Limousine picture from the Art Austria auction back in the 1970's, George posted February 16, certainly is very similar to the body on my Locomobile.  The front doors are not of the suicide style as noted on most other pictures of enclosed Locomobiles.  It appears that if I do need to fabricate a visor is must be mounted to the windshield frame which means that it must have provision to tip with the windshield and not be stationary.

Al

Edited by alsfarms
clarity (see edit history)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/25/2022 at 11:58 AM, jeff_a said:
  • In the fall of 1924, E.T. Stotesbury purchased a 1925 Locomobile Model 48 chassis and had it refitted with a custom town car body and a collapsible roof made by the Derham Body Company (formerly the Derham Carriage Works) on Lancaster Avenue in Rosemont, PA. The Derham brothers designed it so that the car looked like a Phaeton when the top and all of the windows were lowered. Upon delivery, Stotesbury shipped the car to New York, where new fenders, a Rolls Royce style hood, a radiator and custom appointments (including the initial "S" on the radiator) were added.

    It is likely that this car was used by Eva Stotesbury, as Mr. Stotesbury tended to prefer the Peerless, Chrysler and Buick models for his own cars. It probably was sold in 1928, when Eva obtained a new Rolls Royce as her main vehicle."

 

  • Photo Sources: John Deming, Jr.; the Hershey Auction 2005; ConceptCarz.com. Additional information provided by the Lower Merion Historical Society, Platinum Classic Motor Cars, the Auto Collections at the Imperial Palace Hotel & Casino in Las Vegas, PopularMechanics.com, ConceptCarz.com, John Yunis, and John Deming, Jr.
  • Engine of Restored Stotesbury Locomobile
    Front interior of restored Stotesbury Locomobile
    Rear interior of restored Stotesbury Locomobile
    Rear seat of restored Stotesbury Locomobile
     
 
 
 
 
  • These are some more things from the excellent Stotesbury website. Edward Stotesbury was a senior partner in J.P. Morgan's firm.
  • Maybe edinmass will remember details of the Locomobile he saw 40 years ago and see how these pictures compare. The photo credits could give us clues as to where the car is now.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

His guy bought a lot of cars disguised as RR’s. Wonder why?B6CDC44D-6225-4751-A94C-68AF6C8A3F70.jpeg.bf1f43be6c99d5207149be9c4e79eef6.jpeg

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
Posted (edited)

The question of when did Locomobile stop stamping the engine numbers in the hood hinge stop.  These were custom built for sure and I can see why keeping track of a body component earmarked for a specific automobile was likely important. Here is a picture of one of a pair of hood panels recently purchased that have engine number 3171 stamped into each brass hinge.  Just thinking, a heavy duty brass hinge certainly would be a quality improvement or betterment over a formed sheet steel hinge with smoker operation and less likely to rust up and bind.  Does anyone own Locomobile 3171 or know when the stamped engine number stopped?

Al

Edited by alsfarms
clarity (see edit history)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, alsfarms said:

The question of when did Locomobile stop stamping the engine numbers in the hood hinge stop.  These were custom built for sure and I can see why keeping track of a body component earmarked for a specific automobile was likely important. Here is a picture of one of a pair of hood panels recently purchased that have engine number 3172 stamped into each brass hinge.  Just thinking, a heavy duty brass hinge certainly would be a quality improvement or betterment over a formed sheet steel hinge with smoker operation and less likely to rust up and bind.  Does anyone own Locomobile 3172 or know when the stamped engine number stopped?

Al

can you add the photo, pls?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/21/2022 at 3:16 PM, Ittenbacher Frank said:

Thanks, George. This style headlamp looks similar but not identical to the headlamps on my 1917 M7 tourer. My lamps have a hinge on the outside (left lamp on the left hand side, right lamp on the right) and a knob for operating a spring-loaded catch on the inside. Press the knob and the door can be opened. The lamps are 11" and German Silver plated (this was mentioned at least 40 years ago when the car was described by the owner) and bear a plate "FLEETWOOD" on top. The fittings look perfectly matching the Loco lamp holder bar and supports. Can you or someone tell me: Was Fleetwood a supplier of general accessories for every body builder, or was it specifically made for another car brand, or was that lamp optional to Locos, or what is the reason that I have not seen any other Loco with exactly these headlamps? I can't even remember having ever seen another car with "Fleetwood"-labeled lamps.

 

1 headlamp DSCN1189.JPG

1 IMG_7316 headlamp.JPG

DSCN1188.JPG

1 IMG_7323 reflektorrückseite (2).JPG

1 IMG_7328 catch (2).JPG

Hi Frank. Saw this on a 1931 car. Just for comparison.2A6F8AF8-B2D8-48B3-856D-B04C4DAEE210.jpeg.a32fcfe4439d33784751de133dd9cdd3.jpeg

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...