Locomobile Custom Body info. and pictures

[George K]

I guess you could call this custom. I like the wires.

[George K]

Can’t get enough of dual rear wire wheels.

[alsfarms]

Hello Frank,  The picture of the hood number is located on the inside of the hood side panel and towards one side of the hood and on the engine side of the brass hinge.  I am thinking that this number shown does not relate to the engine or serial number but does relate to an assembly number.  More like the pictures of numbers your have shared elsewhere.

Al

[George K]

On 2/28/2022 at 6:02 PM, George K said:

Frank I don’t own a copy of that book. Just nicked the photo because it had your style badge. Wish I could help. 

Hi Frank  I ran into this Fleetwood logo on a Fleetwood factory drawing. 1934 if remember correctly.

[alsfarms]

I am looking for some windshield visor cast brass brackets suitable to allow a change of the position of the visor independently of being mounted solid against the top of a sedan type body and in only one position.  Has anyone here seen such brackets?  I have run across some sheet-metal brackets but they would not come close to looking the part on a Locomobile but would look great on a typical Model T Ford.  These custom bodies are certainly a fun chase.

Al

[alsfarms]

I am going to try something new, let's see if it works.  

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/DodgeBrothersMotorCars/permalink/4823489817735128/?sfnsn=mo&ref=share

 

This is a link to a set of generic windshield visor brackets that mount the visor apart from the body and allow the visor to be adjusted not just be in a stationary position.  After my  contemplation of the holes mounted in the Locomobile 48 Demarest Limousine body windshield and side pillar posts, I think the visor is a likely option. It is a possibility that one of the movable visors was mounted to this Locomobile. Share your thoughts.

Al

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by alsfarms
Clarity (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

It appears that the link I provided does in fact work.

Al

[ak]

Al, 1925-1928 Franklins used a very well made, all brass, telescoping bracket for their visors.  

John

[alsfarms]

Hello John,

Hmmmm, I didn't know that!  So in your Franklin stash of parts, do you have any spare pieces?  If not who among your Franklin friends would it be good to check with?

Al

[alsfarms]

Here is an offering currently on eBay which is an ad from 1921 for an elegant custom Locomobile.

Al

[alsfarms]

I think it is most appropriate to bring a copy of the link of a beautiful custom bodied Locomobile to this forum location.  The above picture certainly appears to be of the exact body style as offered for sale by Dragone.  If I only had a mature money tree in my back yard......

Al

https://www.dragoneclassic.com/inventory/p/1917-locomobile-model-48-farnham-and-nelson-dual-cowl-victoria

[Walt G]

Hare's Motors was in Manhattan ( NY City a few blocks west of Central park ) and run by a fellow who I have researched . I have the dealer's showroom bound album of linen backed photographs that he had to show customers what body styles were available and most were of cars he had sold that were photographed by a commercial photographer . Pages are huge.  Glass plate negatives were obviously used when the photographs were made ( more like posed car portraits) . I found the album in Texas some years ago , and just had to have it. It is one of the most significant things in my archives. I have a story about Locomobile and their coachwork in the 1914 - 1929 era "in progress" being written.

[alsfarms]

I, for one, will be most excited to see and read your history on Locomobile custom bodies.  Glass plate engineered photographs are truly works of art.  I have some early photographs of my family that were glass plate.  The quality is amazing, but some technical aspects to deal with. An early photographer was a cross between an engineer and an artist.

Al

[Walt G]

22 hours ago, alsfarms said:

An early photographer was a cross between an engineer and an artist.

Indeed they were, a very true statement . I had the learning curve of who and what photographers did with glass plate negatives when I was the librarian for the Long Island Automotive Museum. Got to see all the names ( well most of them) and how they had to contend not just with the camera/hood to cover the camera, transportation of heavy and cumbersome equipment, but also the exposure time required. A windy day was not conducive to a great image. The ability for a glass plate negative to pick up tiny details is amazing, as is their ability to be used when enlarged. The negatives for Mack trucks were 8 x 10 glass if not larger. Austin Clark would use and image from a glass plate negative to enlarge it as a display at his auto museum in Southampton and it could be perfectly clear with no distortion with dimensions 7 x 6 feet when enlarged !

Most reading this have no real concept of what it was like, no push of a button and an image instantly appearing.

Commercial photographers abounded in major cities , particularly in the North East region of the USA where the wealthy customers in major metropolis had the $ resources to pay for portraits, as did manufacturers of assorted goods, such as luxury motor cars.  It is a whole world of study that hasn't really been explored or appreciated.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Walt G (see edit history)

[BobinVirginia]

Dual Cowl Phaeton cool car exact body seen on the above posted ad

Edited May 5, 2022 by BobinVirginia (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Hello Walt.  I live in an area of rural Utah now and around 1900 it was still the wild west.  That said, families were important then also so business minded photographers would travel from town to town to take family and portrait pictures. Today we are very blessed by what these early photographers did as we have very good quality family pictures available in our families for future posterity.  Sadly, as pricy as these pictures were, not many good quality pictures exist of early automobiles in this area, if they even afford one then.  I appreciate your thoughts.

Al

Edited May 6, 2022 by alsfarms
Clarity (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Bob, Thanks for posting this picture of your not only elegant but beautiful Locomobile.  Some day I need to take a ride with you!  Have you had it out this year yet?  I hope the hard weather that keeps moving through the south east is leaving you alone.

Al

[BobinVirginia]

3 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Bob, Thanks for posting this picture of your not only elegant but beautiful Locomobile.  Some day I need to take a ride with you!  Have you had it out this year yet?  I hope the hard weather that keeps moving through the south east is leaving you alone.

Al

Al,

 

Unfortunately, that’s not my car. It’s a video I watched recently with the exact body and options of an earlier post. I thought I would share it. Coincidentally, the owner is also named Bob. If it was my car I’d be giving tons of rides as it’s a car to be enjoyed and shared for sure! Thank you for starting the topic as I’m learning and enjoying it! 

Edited May 6, 2022 by BobinVirginia (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Bob’s a great guy and a good friend. Knows cars like few others on the planet.

[alsfarms]

Here is a paint related question for those who have invested in new paint matching original color. On another forum we have an active chat going regarding original paint colors. The determination is that you simply can't trust your eye or pictures to get an idea of early color correctness. My question is, have you taken a good paint sample, that has been rubbed out to be as correct as possible to the original color, have taken it to a good paint supply house and had a paint code developed for the best match available. If you have, would you share your experience and color. There may be some among us that would like to paint back to an original color if we could have access to a code that can be replicated in a paint supply source. I will be getting a paint code for the vermillion (red-purple) from an original panel on the 1925 Locomobile 48 Demarest Limousine. It would be nice to build an index of colors and codes to be used during the restoration process into the future.

 

Al

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[alsfarms]

Does anyone know for sure when "sparkle" was added into the paint.  I assume that metal flake was not in common use until the late 1950's.  I have seen nice restored cars from the 1930's and earlier that look out of place with modern colors used along with metal flake or pearl additives.  

Al

[Bloo]

I believe Graham and a few others had metallic paint in the late 30s. I have seen pictures of a couple cars I believe were original. The sparkly stuff was different and made of something no longer used (fish scales maybe?). The particles were extremely fine, and the paint was not as shiny as a solid color. It literally looked metallic, probably closer to anodized aluminum than anything else, but more dull and subdued. I don't believe it can be duplicated in modern paint.

 

Hey @Graham Man, do you know anything about this?

 

[George K]

1 hour ago, alsfarms said:

Here is a paint related question for those who have invested in new paint matching original color. On another forum we have an active chat going regarding original paint colors. The determination is that you simply can't trust your eye or pictures to get an idea of early color correctness. My question is, have you taken a good paint sample, that has been rubbed out to be as correct as possible to the original color, have taken it to a good paint supply house and had a paint code developed for the best match available. If you have, would you share your experience and color. There may be some among us that would like to paint back to an original color if we could have access to a code that can be replicated in a paint supply source. I will be getting a paint code for the vermillion (red-purple) from an original panel on the 1925 Locomobile 48 Demarest Limousine. It would be nice to build an index of colors and codes to be used during the restoration process into the future.

 

Al

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here’s the Ronan japaning colors .Standard basic colors for years. 

[George K]

[alsfarms]

George, 

I am guessing that the colors from the paint chip chart above are likely the base colors that were used early on by Locomobile and others?  When I will fully rub out a patch on one of the better panels on the Demarest Limousine, I will have a much better idea of the color.  At this moment I am thinking Venetian Red, Burnt Sienna, Rose Pink or maybe Liberty Red M.  With all of the speculation about how colors appeared originally, are you confident that the colors shown on the paint chip chart are true to original or might they be off a bit in tint?  On another chat I am involved with, those with a better understanding of the different paint and picture mediums suggest that even the internet may not reproduce colors accurately as per original.  Do you know of any of these colors that have been tested by a paint spectrometer and have modern paint codes worked out that are accurate?  I am anxious to rub out a panel and get a professionally done paint code that will allow me to go back with the most original and authentic paint color possible.  I have not determined what would be the best substitute for the original paint type or lacquer.   Many coats of lacquer all hand rubbed provide a depth that is very hard to beat!

Al

[George K]

I guessing they are the same type of pigment used on Locomobile. They were around before Locomobile. No insight on comparison to modern colors.

 I know from experience spectrometer results are influenced by many conditions. Locomobile painters used their eyes as that’s what they had.

 

[alsfarms]

Thanks,  I am trying for an accurate color.  I don't want to have the guy behind the desk to tell me that it looks like a 1990 Ford Pinto color so just use that.  On the other hand I do not want to be so over the top OCD that I stumble around when there is no need to.  Information is good.  I agree, if a panel has been in the sun and weather for 75 years the sun and weather may certainly alter the original hue of the color even if a good rub out has taken place.  In my circumstance, I will pick a panel that has been as protected as much as possible from the sun and weather to rub out and make a judgement call that that color is as good as I can get to replicate and work up a modern paint formula.

Al

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Here, you are always looking for special and foreign body builder on Locos. Here is an interesting page from one of Floyd Clymers scrap books:

 

[alsfarms]

Nice page and pictures.  Heavy custom built early automobile are rather in a class of their own!

Al

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Dear Locomobile specialists,

I always thought my model 1917 touring car is called a seven passenger, but after all, I am not sure. Can someone tell me the difference between the 6-passenger and the 7-passenger car?

As a reference, please see the sales catalogue dated April 1916: 6-passenger 38, 6-passenger 48, 7-passenger 38 and 7-passenger 48. I can’t see a difference between the two bodies.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Then I see the sales photos of specific customer cars: For example, look at the 6-passenger of Mr. Wright and the 7-passenger of Mr. Johnson. Their length looks identical to me.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

The catalogue for Locomobile exchange cars shows a seven passenger touring car. I think that is the same photo as used for touring cars in all publications.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Then I found a description of the touring body. A DIY-instruction, very useful if you lost your body and want to build a new one...

The width of the body is shown at the drawing:

Outside of the body: 58"

inside the rear part: 48"

width of jump seats: 16"

gap between the jump seats: 9.5"

calculated: gaps between jumps seat and body: 3.25" on each side)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Today I measured the width of my car:

Outside body width just behind the front seat assembly (near the cloth hanger): 142 cm (5.6”)

The maximum outside body width is near the centre of the rear seats: 149 cm (5.9”)

 

For the people interested in the space available for 10 legs in the rear of the Locomobile, I measured the width between the jump seats:

Width inside the body walls, measured along the jump seats: 127 cm (5”)

This 5”-width is divided like this (from left to right):

1. Gap for legs on the left: 16 cm (6.3”)
2. Width of left jump seat: 37.5cm (14.75”)
3. Gap between jump seats: 20cm (7.9”)
4. Width of right jump seat: 37.5cm (14.75”)
5. Gap for legs on the right: 16 cm (6.3”)

Are your cars the same, or wider or more narrow?

Does anyone of you have some way to prove how your car was called by the factory?

I am keen to see your feedback. Thanks for measuring, best regards! Frank

[TG57Roadmaster]

Last week I acquired 4 Nathan Lazarnick Locomobile 8x10 press photos in, of all places, a little antiquities shop in Havana, Cuba. They are undated but bear the later stamp showing both his New York City and Cleveland studios - he opened the latter in April 1923, so I'm dating them as 1923 Model 48s; a Touring, Sportif with Cape Top, a Cabriolet and a Coupé-Limousine. The originals are crisp and clear, typical of Lazarnick's work, and the Le Baron body plates are legible - three have LeBaron and Demarest & Co. badges, one atop the other - the Sportif, Cabriolet and Touring, while the Coupé-Limousine wears a lone LeBaron badge. 

 

Model 48 Coupé-Limousine with its lone LeBaron badge.

 

Model 48 Sportif with LeBaron and Demarest & Co. badges.

 

Model 48 Cabriolet with LeBaron and Demarest & Co. badges.

 

Model 48 Touring with LeBaron and Demarest & Co. badges.

 

The most legible plates of the three cars are on the Touring, which can be read with a loupe. There are two distinct badges

and eight fasteners evident, with Le Baron on top and Demarest & Co. on the bottom - the latter is ever so slightly narrower.

Taken together, I gather that is how LeBaron-designed bodies built by Demarest would have been badged. Each of the 8x10s

has Lazarnick's photo number penciled in on the back and appear to have been removed from an album or scrapbook.

 

Curiously, in the same shop on a 2019 Havana trip I found four Lazarnick 1925 Peerless photos (also removed from an album), taken at the Ward Line's Lower Manhattan docks (now the South Street Seaport) with touring cars bound for Cuba, one of which was used in an issue of the company's Peerless Co-Operator. It leads me to believe that the Peerless distributor, Roberto Hernandez, also repped Locomobile and he ordered the images to show to prospective clients - that has yet to be determined.

 

 

I hope these images fill in some blanks for the Locomobile experts here.

 

TG

[prewarnut]

I'm trying to picture the rock outcropping background and where that was. We may never know. It does not appear to be the elevated RR track/embankment in Bridgeport as that is built on smaller blocks of stone and these seem to show a quarried face of rock. If the studio was in Cleveland perhaps Cleveland Heights as it rises out of the east end of Cleveland? Some streets are still cobblestoned today (actually there's one Cleveland street not too far away that is still wooden block as of 20 years ago - pretty cool).

[edinmass]

51 minutes ago, prewarnut said:

I'm trying to picture the rock outcropping background and where that was. We may never know. It does not appear to be the elevated RR track/embankment in Bridgeport as that is built on smaller blocks of stone and these seem to show a quarried face of rock. If the studio was in Cleveland perhaps Cleveland Heights as it rises out of the east end of Cleveland? Some streets are still cobblestoned today (actually there's one Cleveland street not too far away that is still wooden block as of 20 years ago - pretty cool).

 

Is it the rock ledge along the shore near the popular and famous beach who's name escapes me? West of Bridgeport but not too far.

[TG57Roadmaster]

1 hour ago, prewarnut said:

I'm trying to picture the rock outcropping background and where that was. We may never know. It does not appear to be the elevated RR track/embankment in Bridgeport as that is built on smaller blocks of stone and these seem to show a quarried face of rock. If the studio was in Cleveland perhaps Cleveland Heights as it rises out of the east end of Cleveland? Some streets are still cobblestoned today (actually there's one Cleveland street not too far away that is still wooden block as of 20 years ago - pretty cool).

It makes more sense for the rock background to be near Bridgeport, rather than Cleveland. The three shot there were important enough to stage the photos, maybe Walt can tell us if they were NY Auto Salon cars or if he knows of other significance of this LaBaron trio.

 

TG

[George K]

The dual badges are just as you say. Designed by and executed by. Durant took over in August 1922. These are swan song examples that were marketed as a upscale attempt. Here are a couple press stories with different credit given to designers. The badge tells the truth. The difference in these latter day is insignificant as it is just marketing rehash.

[Walt G]

I am working on a Locomobile pictorial/history of coachwork for the 1914-30 era ( series 38, 48 and 90) when James Frank de Causse was most influential at Locomobile and head of their custom body department.  SO far as the rear section of the body on the touring, my theory ( which means an educated guess as I haven't found it in print in period paperwork) ) is that the dual cowl phaeton and the 7 passenger touring shared the same rear section - when 7 passenger that second cowl was not there so the jump seats would fold into the floor/rear seat area. With the dual cowl/second cowl to take up and cover the area at the top door level behind the front seat the extra seats of course were eliminated. The sport touring and 6 passenger would have possibly used a shorter rear tub. Images ( drawn not photographs) of that era were updated and reused rather then pay an artist to make new ones if the coachwork was so very similar from year to year. I hope what I said all makes sense.

Tom, just love the period photographs you just shared - MAGNIFICENT , a real feast to ones eye. At least mine anyway.

Edited March 15, 2023 by Walt G (see edit history)