63 Dodge 880 starter question

[Brooklyn Beer]

Pretty sure I have figured out but just want to run this past folks. 63 Dodge 880 with 361.  All stock.  3 days ago went to move it and it started up fine. The weekly exercise the cars evening.  Parked it and next day went to move it again and not only did I get one single CLICK from the starter, the interior lights dimmed like no get out. Waited 30 seconds and did it again.  One click and nothing.  Tossed in a spare starter relay and did the same thing. So yesterday some buddies came over to help me push it on the lift and I gave it one more try.  Turned over for 2 seconds and then that one click again and nothing.  I should also mention the battery cable at this time got pretty warm in a very short time. So I have the car on the lift and getting ready to drop the starter and give it a going over. No clue when it was last replaced but every else on the car was near original when I found it. Folks opinions on why the battery cable would get so warm from that huge amp draw in so short of time ?

[JimKB1MCV]

  Consider this a comment, not advise because my experience with this car is circa 1965 to ~ 1970.

  I THINK the starter has a gear reduction that may be failure prone which could jam and cause your overheated cables.

  But.. while the starter is off, be sure the engine is free to turn. You may be digging deeper.

 

  My '63 880 convertible was the same color with a white top and gave many years of service. One of my best cars.

  Good luck.

[JACK M]

A hot cable is your best clue.

Battery connection or cable is your culprit.

[plymouthcranbrook]

Load test your battery as well just to be sure

[Brooklyn Beer]

1 hour ago, JACK M said:

A hot cable is your best clue.

Battery connection or cable is your culprit.

OK, before I drop the starter let me swap out the cables. I am sure I have plenty around here from years of changing those dinky 12 volt cables from 6 volt cars.

[Brooklyn Beer]

3 minutes ago, plymouthcranbrook said:

Load test your battery as well just to be sure

New battery 3 months ago.

[Brooklyn Beer]

1 hour ago, JimKB1MCV said:

  Consider this a comment, not advise because my experience with this car is circa 1965 to ~ 1970.

  I THINK the starter has a gear reduction that may be failure prone which could jam and cause your overheated cables.

  But.. while the starter is off, be sure the engine is free to turn. You may be digging deeper.

 

  My '63 880 convertible was the same color with a white top and gave many years of service. One of my best cars.

  Good luck.

Engine is free

[plymouthcranbrook]

Just now, Brooklyn Beer said:

New battery 3 months ago.

Then as Jack said cables or ground especially ground is likely. Then have starter tested as there could be a short.

[Brooklyn Beer]

36 minutes ago, plymouthcranbrook said:

Then as Jack said cables or ground especially ground is likely. Then have starter tested as there could be a short.

Ground not getting warm, just positive into the relay. And it doesn't take long.  

[TerryB]

The + cable is the first wire in the feed to the starter. The metal of the engine, trans and body are collectively the feed to the - so lots of places to dissipate the grounding heat.

[Rusty_OToole]

Battery cable should not get warm, that is the clue that it has too much resistance, either because it is loose, corroded, or the ends are frayed where the ferrule goes. Put on a new cable of the correct size or larger, make sure the connections are clean and tight, I like to put a little anti seize or electrical contact stuff on them. While you are at it check the ground cable, a bad ground can also cause problems and they often get left off or neglected over the years. Originally there was a ground cable from the battery to the engine block and a little woven body ground from the firewall to the back of the engine.

[Bloo]

Was the whole length of the cable getting hot?

 

If you have a "hot spot" look there for a resistive connection.

 

If the whole cable gets hot, the starter draws too much current. Either the engine is dragging horribly for some reason, or maybe some rebuilder undercut the armature mica on the starter. The grooves fill with copper and the commutator becomes a dead short. An armature dragging due to bad bushings is another possibility, but not very common on that type of starter.

[Frank DuVal]

8 hours ago, TerryB said:

The + cable is the first wire in the feed to the starter. The metal of the engine, trans and body are collectively the feed to the - so lots of places to dissipate the grounding heat.

No, unless the negative terminal of the battery is bolted to the chassis! There is a cable from the negative terminal to the chassis or engine, and if the starter is at fault both cables should be equally warm if in equal condition. P=I²R, the I is the same in both cables. R might be a little less due to shorter length in the chassis grounded cable, but I² is the bigger number in the equation, so equal heat in good cables.

 

Since one cable is getting warm, and I is the same in both cables, R must be too large in the cable to the starter. Replace it and see if the problem goes away, since you have spares. 

 

If you did not have a spare, do a voltage drop test across the positive cable (one lead of the DMM to the cable end at the battery  and the other on the starter stud, where the cable attaches. Should be less than a volt when the starter is cranking. Or at least less than 2 volts....

Edited August 9, 2021 by Frank DuVal (see edit history)

[TerryB]

9 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

No, unless the negative terminal of the battery is bolted to the chassis! There is a cable from the negative terminal to the chassis or engine, and if the starter is at fault both cables should be equally warm if in equal condition. P=I²R, the I is the same in both cables. R might be a little less due to shorter length in the chassis grounded cable, but I² is the bigger number in the equation, so equal heat in good cables.

 

Since one cable is getting warm, and I is the same in both cables, R must be too large in the cable to the starter. Replace it and see if the problem goes away, since you have spares. 

 

If you did not have a spare, do a voltage drop test across the positive cable (one lead of the DMM to the cable end at the battery  and the other on the starter stud, where the cable attaches. Should be less than a volt when the starter is cranking. Or at least less than 2 volts....

If the layout is like my 1964 Plymouth was, the + cable is much longer. The - cable on mine was connected to the intake manifold which was a short distance from the battery.  Some heat would be generated by the current flow through the resistance offered by the metal in the block and then a small amount by the low resistance of the cable. I would guess the starter is jammed or shorted.

Edited August 9, 2021 by TerryB (see edit history)

[m-mman]

Since it hasnt been said yet I will say it.

Remove, clean or preferably replace, any CLAMP ON cable ends with good solid cables. 

 

And the lead on the battery posts and inside the cable clamps should be (well scraped or brushed) shinny color.  Dull gray is lead oxide which doesn't have the extra electrons to allow current flow. 

Edited August 9, 2021 by m-mman (see edit history)

[Brooklyn Beer]

Was on a roof most of the afternoon (102 + and it was white butyl) so wiped out.  Tomorrow is another day so intend to dig in if I don't come home feeling like a hot pocket.