1929 chrysler 65 carb replacement

[cdb]

Hi all,

 

after 2 years I finally managed to start my rebuild engine, unfortunately the original stromberg U2 is not working. it runs on the choke only and it is cracked everywhere. Now I found 2 replacement new carbs from Zenith, the 267LWX9 and the 267LCX9 with 24 and 22mm venturi respectively.

 

my question is if anybody tried either of these on a 195CID chrysler?  below the info I got from Zenith. 

 

thnx

Chris

 

 

[Narve N]

Chris, you should just try them both out, I believe they have a general good reputation but I am not the carburetor expert here. Otherwise the regular replacement for an U2 is the Carter BB-1 updrafts, which is a late model updraft (introduced 1930/31?) and have several adjustments. Some BB-1s come from GM heavyweight trucks and are regarded as less suitable for passenger cars. I have put an overhauled BB-1 on both my Series 65s. One did run really nice before I sold that car, the other one that I still got wants 25 liters/100km and gives nothing in return.. the car does not want to exceed 80 km/h.

 

I have also discovered that spark plug reach might have an impact on performance as has the coil quality. You will have to fiddle around to find the best combination. I will this season try out a mid-sized Winfield updraft that is in my inventory to seek better performance and economy.

[carbking]

Chrysler tried a 24mm in 1928, found it to be too small, and switched to 26mm in mid-year.

 

Jon

[edinmass]

"I will this season try out a mid-sized Winfield updraft that is in my inventory to seek better performance and economy."

 

A Winfield will not deliver better economy.......not a snow balls chance in hell. And unless you run full throttle all of the time, the performance will be wanting.

[Narve N]

15 minutes ago, edinmass said:

A Winfield will not deliver better economy.......not a snow balls chance in hell. And unless you run full throttle all of the time, the performance will be wanting.

Be aware that the recorded mileage so far is 9 mpg, while I am hoping for 15 mpg or better. Time will show how it goes.

[carbking]

1 hour ago, Narve N said:

Some BB-1s come from GM heavyweight trucks and are regarded as less suitable for passenger cars. I have put an overhauled BB-1 on both my Series 65s.

 

I have posted before, but worth rementioning again.

 

Carter made 6 BB-1 carbs that may be of interest to those wishing to use them on other than the standard application:

 

245s (S.A.E. size 1, all cast, pre-WWII)

245sd (superseded 245s, die-cast bowl, post WWII)

BB1A (S.A.E. size 2, all cast, pre-WWII)

BB1D (superseded BB1A,, die-cast bowl, post WWII)

289s (S.A.E. size 3 body, BUT SIZE 2 INTERNALS, all cast, pre-WWII)

289sd (superseded 289s, die-cast bowl, post WWII)

 

With all due respect to everyone, unless one is a carburetor professional with lots of unusual spare parts (or a machine shop), the other BB-1's are best left to those who have the original application.

 

Ed is 100 percent correct on the Winfield; and again, unless one is a carburetor professional WITH the Winfield book, chances are very good that the Winfield will deliver less performance on more fuel! And depending on the original carburetor, the Winfield may deliver less performance anyway.

 

Jon

Edited April 5, 2021 by carbking (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Your chassis looks nice. Don’t worry about fuel mileage, worry about stoichiometry. You can do damage playing around without a five gas machine. Just tossing on carburetors is asking for trouble.

[viv w]

My Chrysler 52 (4 cyl) had a capacity of 170 cu in and ran happily for years with a Model A Ford Zenith carb, as the original carb was beyond repair. Your Chrysler engine capacity at 195 cu in, is very similar to that of a Model A Ford, perhaps see if you can borrow a Model A carb to  try on your motor.

Viv

[cdb]

One of the two carbs is made for a Ford 3000 tractor , the other one for a perkins 4 cyl 238 CID. both around 70/80HP so that should be fine. both carbs seem to have a vacuum accelerator pump which is good. the worrying part is that you can buy a chinese carb for a ford 3000 @ $100.. not sure if anyone tried this before. The A ford carb is a bit smaller either of the two I guess.

Zenith carbs are not inexpensive new, so if anyone tried these I would still like to hear it.

 

as a last option I can convert the whole thing to LPG, that runs smooth per definition. Any experiences?

 

[carbking]

 

7 hours ago, cdb said:

as a last option I can convert the whole thing to LPG, that runs smooth per definition. Any experiences?

 

 

I had to go back and read the entire thread, as I remembered someone was concerned about fuel mileage, but I see it was Narve N.

 

LPG has an AKI (anti knock index, a.k.a. octane rating) of 104. It will perform best in engines with at LEAST 10 to 1 compression, more than 10 is better.

 

LPG has an energy content of 91,500 Btu/gallon, compared to 117,600 for gasoline.

 

And yes, I DO HAVE EXPERIENCE WITH LPG as a (haha) motor fuel, enough to last 100 lifetimes; but no, I have no experience with LPG and your engine.

 

Good luck!

 

Jon

[Narve N]

22 hours ago, carbking said:

Carter made 6 BB-1 carbs that may be of interest to those wishing to use them on other than the standard application:

 

245s (S.A.E. size 1, all cast, pre-WWII)

245sd (superseded 245s, die-cast bowl, post WWII)

BB1A (S.A.E. size 2, all cast, pre-WWII)

BB1D (superseded BB1A,, die-cast bowl, post WWII)

289s (S.A.E. size 3 body, BUT SIZE 2 INTERNALS, all cast, pre-WWII)

289sd (superseded 289s, die-cast bowl, post WWII)

How can you tell one from another? I have had a BB1D which was marked as such with a copper sign attached to it, but have not seen any of the other markings. Like this one (my overhauled 9 mpg BB-1), is that one of your trusted 6 versions?

 

[carbking]

The one pictured is not.

 

Jon.

[edinmass]

It all comes down to guessing and making a mess of things, or properly do your homework and find a correct unit, and then tune it to the car........by tune it, I mean a five gas exhaust analyzer. Everything else is guessing, and poor workmanship. Tuning for anything except optimal fuel burn is foolish and a wast of time. Melt a piston, burn valves, wash down cylinders. Tossing something on is quite simply put........ ridiculous. 

[carbking]

I have wrestled with trying to answer Narve N's question without offending anyone, and this is the best I can do:

 

The 6 universal Carter type BB-1 carbs I mentioned in my first post have been in demand for 50 years, and pretty well completely dried up (I have been out for at least 20 years).

 

But there is a demand! So some folks are reproducing tags, others are reproducing the adjustable main jets, and still others are buying the reproduction parts, adding them to non-universal BB-1's, and selling them to unknowing folks that look only at the bottom line. The internals of the non-universal carbs are......................still internals from non-universal carbs!

 

As to identification, probably the best tip I can give is to buy the carb from someone you trust, or take your chances. 

 

And if one is going to use a universal BB-1 then check the chart I posted here a few months ago. Other than the Packard Standard 8 application, the applications as recommended by Carter engineers seem to work pretty well. If your application is not on the chart, then you become your own engineer.

 

The gentleman who gave the best answer to the question is probably John Ruskin; here is a link:

 

John Ruskin quotation

 

EDIT: for those who have as much trouble with site searches as I, here is a link to the universal BB-1 applications chart:

 

Carter Universal type BB-1 carbs.

 

Jon.

Edited April 6, 2021 by carbking (see edit history)

[edinmass]

I like the page.......

[cdb]

Coming back on my original question did any one try either zenith carbs?

 

In the meantime I got the 24mm version, and it works!

 

One little issue is the quality, the idle needle bore is offset and the needle is too far open making the mixture too rich at idle. Zenith does not respond tot my claim, even when pictures show the offset clearly. Sending the whole thing back to the US will cost me a fortune. Now I machined the bore and I am getting there.

 

Acceleration is great and the engine is running like new. 

With a better service and quality from zenith of would be a good buy🙁

[leomara]

On the Zenith question, I have a 1928 Model 72 which came with a Zenith 10184 when I bought it.  Haven't got it started yet but carbking posted it would do well.......

[carbking]

The 24mm carb should work well up to a certain RPM, and then will probably just not rev any higher. Some power will be lost, and top speed will be lower than normal. Up to that point, should do very well.

 

As I posted earlier, Chrysler found the 24mm to be too small, and switched to a 26mm venturi.

 

Have seen very few quality control issues with genuine Zenith carbs, but I guess everyone has a bad day!

 

Jon.

[cdb]

Today a new throttle body came in from Zenith. It takes a while but it is for sure a good service.

[Dave Phillips]

Hi,

I’ve followed many articles on this subject and I’m glad I’m not the only one struggling to find the correct solution to this problem, I was going to buy a new Zenith carb as above, but when I checked my Model 65 came with this carb, which is a Zenith but there are no other markings on it. The car starts and runs lovely but it is gutless and struggles to climb any hills. I’ve checked everything else and all is good. When you accelerate it seems to make a lot of sucking noise as if the choke is on, ( but it’s definitely not) I’ve set it up using some of the tips and original documents from this forum.

The flange fits the manifold perfectly and the aperture measures approximately 33mm. Any help or advise would be helpful. I just want to be able to drive the car without any worries.

[carbking]

OK - again will attempt to post without arousing anyone's ire.

 

When choosing a replacement carburetor, there are several IMPORTANT issues to address (cost is the very LAST one).

 

(1) The carburetor needs to fit the manifold (or an adapter fabricated). This is generally done by measuring the center to center bolt spacing of the manifold.

(2) The INTERNAL VENTURI size needs to match the engine for air flow

 

PLEASE look at this article on Stromberg SF series carburetors: Stromberg SF carburetors

 

Please note that even the smallest (the SF-1) has FIVE DIFFERENT INTERNAL VENTURII so it may be used on engines from 130 ~ 260 CID. One size does NOT fit all.

 

(3) The type of driving one does is very important. THE NEW ZENITH CARBURETORS HAVE NO POWER CIRCUITS (well, at least the cheap versions do not). Thus even if the venturi is properly selected, and the engine purrs like a kitten on level terrain, the engine might be a "gutless wonder" when climbing hills.

 

To explain the importance of the power circuit, will use an example of the 1956 Chevrolet with 283 CID, and a Rochester two-barrel carb. The Rochester two-barrel is one of the easiest carburetors to understand that has even been built! The main metering circuit (for normal driving) has two jets of diameter 0.052 inch (it is a two barrel, one jet for each barrel). But when the driver puts his/her foot on the floor and activates the power circuit, FOUR additional 0.055 inch jets come into play. So the power circuit ADDS more than twice the fuel of the normal main metering circuit to the total fuel being supplied.

 

(4) For an updraft carburetor, it is important to know if the fuel system is gravity feed or pressure feed. THE SAME CARBURETOR (MODIFIED) MAY BE USED FOR EITHER, BUT NEVER BOTH. 

 

(5) Cost. Larger carburetors will be more expensive than smaller ones. Carburetors with accelerator pumps and/or power circuits will be more expensive than those without.

 

(6) Finally, when one changes from the original factory equipment one becomes one's own engineer. Do it right, and a large percentage of older cars THAT ARE DRIVEN may be improved with a well-researched aftermarket carburetor. But go back and read the comments by John Ruskin before buying the cheapest unit available.

 

And Dave, the throttle bore is really not very useful by itself, as it normally is a function of the center to center spacing. The critical measurement is the smallest diameter of the internal venturi.

 

Jon.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by carbking (see edit history)

[edinmass]

If adapting cheaper carburetors was a good idea.......reproduction Packard carburetors wouldn’t cost six grand. And yes, the sell them. And I have purchased one. The car runs great now. It came with the incorrect unit on it.......

Edited August 17, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[30DodgePanel]

On 8/16/2021 at 1:01 PM, carbking said:

OK - again will attempt to post without arousing anyone's ire.

 

When choosing a replacement carburetor, there are several IMPORTANT issues to address (cost is the very LAST one).

 

(1) The carburetor needs to fit the manifold (or an adapter fabricated). This is generally done by measuring the center to center bolt spacing of the manifold.

(2) The INTERNAL VENTURI size needs to match the engine for air flow

 

PLEASE look at this article on Stromberg SF series carburetors: Stromberg SF carburetors

 

Please note that even the smallest (the SF-1) has FIVE DIFFERENT INTERNAL VENTURII so it may be used on engines from 130 ~ 260 CID. One size does NOT fit all.

 

(3) The type of driving one does is very important. THE NEW ZENITH CARBURETORS HAVE NO POWER CIRCUITS (well, at least the cheap versions do not). Thus even if the venturi is properly selected, and the engine purrs like a kitten on level terrain, the engine might be a "gutless wonder" when climbing hills.

 

To explain the importance of the power circuit, will use an example of the 1956 Chevrolet with 283 CID, and a Rochester two-barrel carb. The Rochester two-barrel is one of the easiest carburetors to understand that has even been built! The main metering circuit (for normal driving) has two jets of diameter 0.052 inch (it is a two barrel, one jet for each barrel). But when the driver puts his/her foot on the floor and activates the power circuit, FOUR additional 0.055 inch jets come into play. So the power circuit ADDS more than twice the fuel of the normal main metering circuit to the total fuel being supplied.

 

(4) For an updraft carburetor, it is important to know if the fuel system is gravity feed or pressure feed. THE SAME CARBURETOR (MODIFIED) MAY BE USED FOR EITHER, BUT NEVER BOTH. 

 

(5) Cost. Larger carburetors will be more expensive than smaller ones. Carburetors with accelerator pumps and/or power circuits will be more expensive than those without.

 

(6) Finally, when one changes from the original factory equipment one becomes one's own engineer. Do it right, and a large percentage of older cars THAT ARE DRIVEN may be improved with a well-researched aftermarket carburetor. But go back and read the comments by John Ruskin before buying the cheapest unit available.

 

And Dave, the throttle bore is really not very useful by itself, as it normally is a function of the center to center spacing. The critical measurement is the smallest diameter of the internal venturi.

 

Jon.

 

 

Jon you're amazing   

 

I'm always thankful for your posts but when I reflect on the time you put into it, the thought, and the fact that you have a desire to help others so much says a lot about your character.  I for one am very thankful for your countless posts of carburetor education.  

 

Dave