64Rivvy Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 After many iterations, cutting grinding and bending, i finally got the oem cooling fan to work with the aftermarket shroud i put in. To do that I had to use a clutch fan that was a bit shorter which moves the fan closer to the engine. Are my fan blades too close to the accessory belt here? I'm about to give up and put an electric fan in. I really want to keep everything as original as possible but I just can't waste any more time on this. What do you guys think, is this ok or asking for trouble? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 Look on the internet to see the proper placement of a fan within the shroud. It looks like your fan is not into the shroud far enough. Put a spacer between the water pump pulley and the fan/clutch assembly. That will also give you some belt clearance. The fan should be half in / half out of the shroud. Otherwise you'll be pulling air from outside the shroud rather than through it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
64Rivvy Posted January 24, 2021 Author Share Posted January 24, 2021 That angle makes it look a lot farther out than it really is. The fan is positioned nicely in the shroud and a little less than half is sticking out. The problem is if I use a spacer or the original fan clutch, the blades then move closer to the shroud and hit the shroud. Clearly the aftermarket shrouds all fit like crap so trying to make it work. This is the 3rd shroud I've tried. Everything is good on the shroud side but I'm worried the fan blades could hit the belt. Not sure how much those fan blades will flex. Hoping not much because the fan is so heavy and the thick blades, but I guess hope is not a good strategy for me to rely on. This damn shroud and fan setup continues to be my undoing holding me back. i want to get the oem setup right so badly buts it's fighting me so hard. Raul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 Raul, Use a piece of 18 gauge sheet metal as a spacer between the clutch & the pulley. 16 gauge is about .030" thick & should NOT make a significant diff. IF that is not enough & the 18 gauge is not thick enough use 16 gauge which is slightly thicker. Again not so much as to be a big diff. Tom T.ss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
64Rivvy Posted January 25, 2021 Author Share Posted January 25, 2021 How close to the belt is too close do you guys think? Right now the fan blades are probably about a half inch maybe a little more from the belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnulfo de l.a. Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 My fan blade measure from 15/16” to 1” spacing from the belt.. have you tried to source a oem shroud? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
64Rivvy Posted January 25, 2021 Author Share Posted January 25, 2021 I've tried to find one an oem shroud but have never had any luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gungeey Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 Fire it up you are within recently obtained ( Arnulfo and me) specs I have 1/2"maybe a little more too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
64Rivvy Posted January 25, 2021 Author Share Posted January 25, 2021 Thanks I ran it for a few min yesterday and it seemed ok but wasn't sure under hard braking etc if the blades might flex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 Not that fan. Flex fans have a different blade structure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seafoam65 Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 What part of the shroud does the fan hit? If it is hitting on the bottom of the shroud, your actual problem is most likely sagging motor mounts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 Two questions. 1) What kind of shroud did to mount? 2) How did you mount it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 For hard braking concerns you need to thoroughly check the motor and transmission mounts. And be sure the fuel line is on the right side of the alternator/AC bracket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
64Rivvy Posted January 25, 2021 Author Share Posted January 25, 2021 The fan is just slightly hitting the bottom of the shroud. I will just cut a section of the bottom shroud out and rivet some formed aluminum on there so not too worried about that. Could very well be the mounts causing that. The mounts look to be in good shape from what I can see but how old they are is an unknown to me. I mounted the shroud in the stock location using the stock radiator mount and the 2 brackets at the bottom cross member. The real clearance issue is with top and front of the shroud. If I use the stock fan clutch the fan blades literally can't move at all so that's why I got the shorter fan clutch, which works but moves the fan blades closer to the motor and accessory belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seafoam65 Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 The half inch clearance between the fan and belt is plenty.......if that solves your problem then you are good to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
64Rivvy Posted January 25, 2021 Author Share Posted January 25, 2021 Thanks! I'll make the mod to the bottom of the shroud and let you all know how it goes. That means I have to take that damn fan and fan clutch off yet again. Grrr but it will be worth it to finally have it done. Thanks everyone for the help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 From whom or where did you get the shroud? Was it sold as a reproduction of a Riviera shroud or is it a universal shroud? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BulldogDriver Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 If this was my car I’d check all the engine/trans mounts, make sure that the fan assembly is installed as per original, shroud is mounted properly before cutting the shroud. What good would that do if you later found out that the shroud was ok and some other part of the system was not right? Probably be buying the parts to fix the original problem and a new shroud. While installing a 4L60e transmission, I had to check all of this because the alignment of the trans mount was different then the original Dynaflow and it did have an effect on the shroud mount. I ended having to use shims between the shroud and radiator mounts. My 2 cents. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
64Rivvy Posted January 26, 2021 Author Share Posted January 26, 2021 Ed, Its from opgi,. The quality is good and all the mounts seem to be in the right place. Just off in the fitment who could be my shroud or my car. I've tried two other from different sources and similar issues. Ray, I've checked the motor and tranny mounts and they look like they were replaced at some point. At some point in the future I will likely pull the motor and tranny for a rebuild but for now I've let scope creep slow me down for years on this project. I'm getting it back to a driver asap so I can enjoy it with my kids before they are too old. I'm either going to trim the shroud today or put an electric fan in there and come back to the oem fan later. I pulled the fan last night but now I have to drain some coolant and pull the hoses just to get the damn shroud out l. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 I'd say that 'OPGI' is your culprit. Did you look at the one offered by CARS? Few of us have found anything from OPGI that lives up to their hype. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
64Rivvy Posted January 26, 2021 Author Share Posted January 26, 2021 Thanks I'll check that one out from CARS but hesitant to buy another shroud and have it not fit again. Maybe could work if I'm able to return it if it doesn't fit. I need to order a few things from them anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 On 1/25/2021 at 3:13 PM, 64Rivvy said: The mounts look to be in good shape from what I can see but how old they are is an unknown to me. At 19 years old in the Navy someone said "When in doubt change 'em out". Kinda stuck with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 Raul, One thing you can try, it has worked for me in other occasions, is to put a 1/16th. inch shim UNDER the motor mount between the mount & the frame. You would be very surprised what a 16th. can do. BEFORE you start cutting on the shroud & would be less work. Just a thought IF you haven't already cut the shroud. Tom T. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gungeey Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 (edited) Maybe then the trunk hood won't close? Edited January 26, 2021 by gungeey (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 If you would, post some more pictures of how the shroud is mounted to the crossmember and the support that goes across the radiator. With only three points of contact and only one of those that's a bolt, there should be plenty of room for making adjustments. Tomorrow I'll measure the diameter of a stock fan and the diameter of the opening in the shroud. I think I can also get pictures of the mounting brackets on the crossmember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
64Rivvy Posted January 27, 2021 Author Share Posted January 27, 2021 With the fan out I was able to get some decent pictures here. One thought, i noticed my radiator bracket seems to be angled up a bit, which in turn could be raising the fan shroud up higher than it should be. I included a pic of that as well. I could shim it under the mounting bolts, but still seems that even if I shim the bracket the fan clearance at the bottom would still be too minimal. One other note, i even got a second stock fan to test in case my original fan was bent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
64Rivvy Posted January 27, 2021 Author Share Posted January 27, 2021 A few more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnulfo de l.a. Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 https://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/pts/d/buick-riviera-int-eng-glassfenders-etc/7267754841.html check this man out he may have a factory shroud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 What is this? Doesn't look like anything I've ever seen on a 1st generation shroud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
64Rivvy Posted January 27, 2021 Author Share Posted January 27, 2021 Sorry. Bad picture. That is where my shroud is mounted to the radiator but it's upside down in that picture. I used a hex cap head screw so I could push the shroud down as much as possible. The oem bolt head and washer was much larger so this gave me another 1/4 inch of clearance. You can see where I ground out the mounting slot as well to give maximum clearance all the wAy to the top of the underside of the shroud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 I'm going to post some pictures of how the shroud is bolted (one bolt) to the chassis. These are pictures of the shroud for my 64, and a bracket that I had lying around. First of all note that there are a couple of places where the shroud can be adjusted. One for height, and two for depth. The shroud just locates on the chassis cross member for depth, not for height. The shroud can be moved up or down and just slips over the brackets. The oblong hole in the top of the shroud allows for height adjustment. The radiator support bracket with the shroud attachment bolt Loose bolt and radiator support bracket Shroud bolted to bracket as seen from inside the shroud End of bolt as seen from the outside - radiator support bracket Radiator support bracket showing oblong holes for radiator/shroud depth adjustment You should be able to adjust the shroud up/down and in/out using the factory features and NOT have to do any cutting of the shroud. Next question. Are you using the fan that is original equipment? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
64Rivvy Posted January 28, 2021 Author Share Posted January 28, 2021 Thank you for the pictures. Very enlightening. I am using an original equipment fan and am able to adjust the shroud up and down. The issue I run into is that I can't adjust the shroud down any further. The mounting bolt hits the top of the shroud in the slot shown in your first and fourt pics. There is no where else to go further down. There is more adjustment that could be made to slide the shroud farther down the radiator mounts if there was more room at the top. One other thought I had is that my radiator bracket is bent and seems to be pointing a bit upwards. That could possibly give it another half inch of adjustment. I tried to bend the bracket bit the metal started to crack so I stopped. Do you have any pics of your radiator mount bracket on the car and radiator similar to my 3rd pic above? You can see in that pic how my mount is angled upward on the top of the radiator instead of flush. That could be contributing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 I concur with others who are stating that your engine mounts are shot and the engine itself is sitting too low. When is the last time the engine mounts were replaced? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
64Rivvy Posted January 28, 2021 Author Share Posted January 28, 2021 Here are a few more pics First one is a better pic of the shroud top mount bolt. You can see how it's flush to to top of the shroud. I already enlarged the slot/hole as much as possible. For.some reason pic keeps flipping upside down no matter what I do. I even flipped it in the editor and it sill shows upside down Here you can see the white area at bottom of shroud where fan is hitting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
64Rivvy Posted January 28, 2021 Author Share Posted January 28, 2021 (edited) The engine mounts look pretty good but I have no idea when they were replaced. How hard is it to lift the engine and access them? I really don't want to open another can of worms bc every time I do, it always snowballs.. can i lift the engine with a jack to get to them, or will I have to use a hoist? Edited January 28, 2021 by 64Rivvy (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 Tom T. will have the best answer for this. But I'm sure that you can use a jack. I just don't know where to tell you to place it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gungeey Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 (edited) ? Edited January 28, 2021 by gungeey typo (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 Since you are not going to lift the engine & leave it there for a long period of time I would use a piece of 2x4 the correct length & use the harmonic balancer. IF you think it's gonna be there for a longer period of time position the 2x4 to lift the very front of the oil pan by the bolts. This way you can take your time. IF you do it by the oil pan front bolts you could now remove the 4 bolts that hold the motor mount on & use it as a template for the piece of 1/16th. shim you wil be using. ANOTHER way would be to just roughly figure the size you will need. Then all you have to do is drill one hole in the rough area of the 1 bolt that holds the mount to the frame. I wouldn't worry about the top bolt as you will just be trying something & IF you think it MAY accomplish the problem your having then you could just make up the same size 1/16th. piece to fit under the top bolt. In reality all you have to do is take the weight of the engine off the mount to be able to slip the shim in between the mount & the frame. Tom T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
64Rivvy Posted January 29, 2021 Author Share Posted January 29, 2021 (edited) Thanks Tom. If I jack it up I will replace the motor mounts first as that may solve the problem. Prob a pretty good chance these motor mounts are old and shot event though they don't look too bad. That should lift the motor and fan up enough to give me the needed clearance and give me some new mounts at the same time Any recommendations on source for engine mounts and pointers on replacing them? Can I just get them at the auto store or does a certain brand matter? How long do you think replacing the mounts will take? Is it a one to two hour job or more like a whole weekend job? Thank you. Edited January 29, 2021 by 64Rivvy (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted January 29, 2021 Share Posted January 29, 2021 Raul, What I would do being in your position is to just cut 2 pieces of sheet metal & jack up the engine & insert between the mount. This could be done WITHOUT removing the mount or drilling any holes. We need to keep in mind this is ONLY a temp. thing to see if lifting the engine by a 1/16 will produce the results you are looking for. In reality IF you cut 2 pieces beforehand shouldn' take you more than 20 minutes. New mounts are mostly Chinese & they WILL break IF any spirited driving is done. Now we need to go with my method of holding the engine in place with 4 links of chain. Tom T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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