Preserving Automotive History

[jvolgarino]

48 minutes ago, Steve Moskowitz said:

Just to clarify one issue:  The HCCA Library is available only to HCCA members.  That is the decision by those that run their library. 

So has there been any discussion between AACA and HCCA about sharing resources either one or the other might not have? And if not, why not?

 

And one last question (okay...I admit it might not be the last one). What is the demographics of the AACA? Average age? Youngest? Oldest? How do those demographics lay out in percentages? As we enthusiasts age, who is coming up behind us and what are their interests? (Guess my one question ended up with multiple parts!) 

[Walt G]

More information and comments here are very welcome, and I think make the point and continue to make the point about it all taking amazing amount of effort to get collections of material ( especially endless pages of periodicals) properly scanned , saved and then made available. This all takes infinite amounts of time to then possibly make it available to those who seek it by the press of a button. This was my whole point . Yes, the stuff exists, yes, it should be scanned and made available - for all to see , including me! BUT who is going to do this , and pay the people who are knowledgeable enough to handle  fragile material properly so it doesn't get destroyed in the process of saving it??  

Henry Austin Clark Jr. had an incredible library of material - full runs of periodicals, sales material, photographs by the thousands, and related material - all of it mostly pre WWII. It went to the Henry Ford Museum for their collection upon Austin's death. I know what was there because I worked in his private library for several years while in college. It is how I became familiar with material that I did not know existed ! I then started to look for that same material ( nearly 50 years ago) for my own collection with the help of a friend in England who was a motor book dealer.

It takes countless amounts of hours to know where to even  look for the material . For instance , there is an amazing amount of information on American cars in Europe pre WWII in the souvenir programs of the European Motor Shows in Brussels, Paris, London and Berlin; also in the annual auto number issue of the French  L'Illustration magazine, as well as Omnia a French motoring magazine that was a monthly ( 1920-36) plus other European magazines that had information about all cars and that included American made vehicles that were exported. Add to that sales catalogs printed specifically for the world market which are totally different then the domestic issued items, many which were printed in Europe  ( Buick, Lincoln, Franklin, Stutz , Ford Chrysler all had sales literature printed in Europe)  . Yes, there are major collections here in the USA of material that are not only make specific but year and model specific but again it is in private collections and many of those that have the material do not want to share what they have. I agree it would be wonderful to have a central data base to be able to access for everything but that takes cooperation  - can you get people or clubs etc to do that? As mentioned here the HCCA has a library that can be accessed if you are a member. Understandable to a point because it takes time to research and access and who is paying for that? AACA is trying its hardest to make material available at a pace it can afford to do. Be Grateful for what you can get now.

When I worked for Austin Clark in the early 1970s he would get letters from people saying " I own a 1934 Cosgrove V-7 sedan please send me everything you have on it asap so I can have it for my car and know the history"  He would look at me and frown and state something along the likes about people being totally unrealistic.  They were then and there are some still that way now.

This is not a put down by any means, but one has to put the time in and find out where material is and then possibly get access.

[jvolgarino]

Walt G---You've identified the crux of the problem in preservation. It's hard for me, as a lifelong enthusiast, to think that our automotive history will be lost because of an unwillingness to share and cooperate with each other, including organizations. It's a shame and this discussion needs to extend out further to get our brethren to at least consider how important this is.

 

I have multiple friends within the hobby who have collections of vehicles that are never driven. They gaze at them occasionally and cling to memories while those vehicles deteriorate. When asked what they intend to do with those vehicles and all the accompanying literature, memorabilia and "stuff" they shrug and say (I'm paraphrasing, of course) "I guess I don't care...I'll be dead." As enthusiasts I think we should have a much broader view of our hobby and a major concern about it's future. The history of the automobile is an incredible story not taught in our schools except for passing references to topics like Henry Ford's manufacturing acumen or how the gas engine was developed and adapted to everything from transportation to agriculture.

[Walt G]

There have been groups of preservationists, historians, clubs that agree that automotive history is important and should be more widely respected and accepted as the part of history since the car was invented that affected so many people's lives. Before the motor car most families rarely saw anything further away then approximately 50 miles radius of where they lived. They found out about the USA and the world via the printed word in newspapers and magazines. The AACA, HCCA VMCCA were the major places that automotive history was to be found because people who were preserving the cars /vehicles needed the information to do so - that was found in the paper of the era they were made. The Society of Automotive Historians started to bring that together as a organization when it was started , more specific to the history then to the preservation of a vehicle. Sharing what one has or knows the location of is what it is all about ( 40+ years ago I was an officer and board member of SAH I also edited their Journal for 5 years) BUT trying to get people to share, as mentioned, can be a near impossible task as a lot of people feel that " it is  my stuff and if I let them know about it then I won't be important". I really believe that the sharing of information has made incredible leaps and bounds to the positive in the past 50 years - heck the AACA Forums are proof of that ! How would this conversation be reaching so many people if it weren't for the forums?!

Just since mid March when I started a thread on Images of the era to relieve some of the stress we all have benefited from the amazing amount of period pre WWII era photographs that have been enthusiastically shared here. I am in shock! I never ever expected that, I knew some friends and I liked to look at period photographs( plus other stuff) so thought it may make some other people feel good too. It had for the decades I contributed to the Classic Car Club magazine when I was a member, as well as Hemmings Classic Car magazine.

So the interest is there folks we just need to get it sorted out to "get the information to the masses" . To coordinate all of that will take time. Many clubs and organizations have looked to the AACA as a place to let their archives reside for the best possible access - kudos to AACA!

[jvolgarino]

As I've noted earlier, I deeply appreciate the AACA effort. But this issue does need visibility within this community and this forum post, put together by BobBurbank, is a start. How can this message be taken even further? Publications? Other forums? Social media? Maybe some of those organizations and individuals will reconsider their "importance" and put ego aside. We can only try.

[alsancle]

43 minutes ago, jvolgarino said:

Walt G---You've identified the crux of the problem in preservation. It's hard for me, as a lifelong enthusiast, to think that our automotive history will be lost because of an unwillingness to share and cooperate with each other, including organizations. It's a shame and this discussion needs to extend out further to get our brethren to at least consider how important this is.

 

I have multiple friends within the hobby who have collections of vehicles that are never driven. They gaze at them occasionally and cling to memories while those vehicles deteriorate. When asked what they intend to do with those vehicles and all the accompanying literature, memorabilia and "stuff" they shrug and say (I'm paraphrasing, of course) "I guess I don't care...I'll be dead." As enthusiasts I think we should have a much broader view of our hobby and a major concern about it's future. The history of the automobile is an incredible story not taught in our schools except for passing references to topics like Henry Ford's manufacturing acumen or how the gas engine was developed and adapted to everything from transportation to agriculture.

If an organization such as the AACA library is sitting on boxes of material it is only because they don't have the man power to catalog and scan it.   It is not about cooperation,  it is about work.  My suggestion would be you volunteer at whatever library is nearest to you to aid in the cataloging and scanning work.

 

I'm not directly talking about you,  but typically the people that are complaining about the unwillingness of others to do work to their benefit are the last ones to volunteer to help.

 

[jvolgarino]

I've been looking at various information resources and, of course, came across Walter Miller's autolit.com which is still posted, but is not actively accif everything still resides epting orders. When Walter died last November there was news his giant collection of literature and memorabilia was going to auctioned, but I've found nothing that confirms that ever happened. Anyone know the status?

[60FlatTop]

Many of these endeavors manage money through a "not for profit" entity. When government regulations apply the typical hobbyist can quickly be excluded from major roles in the operation. Regulations on hiring a certified Archivist and Archivist assistants can turn things obvious to the enthusiast over to the "professional". They may have a completely different metric to evaluate your contribution than your intent of the donation.

 

I am sitting in a room with books and literature that have been passed through my family for over 100 years. I know that if I donated it to an organization many items would end up in the 50 cent to $1 fund raiser sale. And on Saturday $2 for a bagful. My intent is different than that. I am selling the most valuable items at a price high enough for the next owner to really appreciate them or giving things to actual owners and end users.

 

Over the years I  had made gifts and contributions. Looking back the few times something was really appreciated are memorable. More often my gift "wasn't good enough" for the recipient.

 

And I can still spend an evening in my easy chair with a big, thick National Auto Data book spread out, reading about cars I don't even own. (some newer ones were 50 cents apiece at the library). Newer 1970's, the 50 year old ones.

[padgett]

Just wish all of these board feet of paper manual, books, guides I have here was in electronic format. Most of it has stopped being "old" and has become "antique". For example I wish my copies of Obert or Ricardo were in .pdf. Then many could learn.

 

Back when any Reatta owner could download the service and parts manual, helping a newbie was easy, rist read this chapter and secion of the FSM, GM really did a great job of diagnostics but the lawyers stopped that.

 

Of course I am more for repair manuals than coffee table books but even the Brooklands books (mainly compilations of magazine articles) can provide insights into how/why things were done the way they were.

 

Wonder how Bisko has avoided the lawyers, are selling CDs on eBay.

 

 

[Terry Bond]

I've continued to follow with interest.  Lots of thoughts and ideas but one thing that can be done to help everyone's wishes become reality is to make a contribution to AACA's Library and Research Center.  One thing everyone agrees on is this doesn't come cheap.  With a new facility set to open, dedicated staff, enhanced capabilities, and new material arriving constantly, having the financial resources necessary to deal with it is vital and one way everyone can help participate.

Terry

[30DodgePanel]

1 hour ago, jvolgarino said:

As I've noted earlier, I deeply appreciate the AACA effort. But this issue does need visibility within this community and this forum post, put together by BobBurbank, is a start. How can this message be taken even further? Publications? Other forums? Social media? Maybe some of those organizations and individuals will reconsider their "importance" and put ego aside. We can only try.

 

The AACA are making huge strides and we are all excited for what the future holds. I know Steve and others are putting their egos aside and think we can all agree that we all have the same desire to see as much information saved as possible. Thanks to you and Bob for bringing it up and keeping the fire lit within all of us... let's hope we never let it go out as we owe it to future auto enthusiasts.

 

Unity is a good thing but getting everyone on the same page is a big hurdle for sure....

 

I commend the academics and research institutions who have displayed the results of unity at https://www.hathitrust.org/

I'm not smart enough to know how they did it but it looks like it works very good. Maybe you and Bob (and others who wish) can share your thoughts on the pros and cons, the practical and not so practical things they are doing right and what can be improved on? Maybe touch on the nuts and bolts of how these things work so others can get a better idea in lay terms of what we are hoping to achieve as a community of researchers.

 

BTW, the site proves much duplication will continue to happen. It's unfortunate because we all want to be efficient with our time and efforts as we compile data and organize our libraries but it's inevitable...duplication will continue as the resource outlets continue to grow. How to stem that duplication while creating linking capabilities should be an important factor.... 

They have many auto publications in their database. It would be ideal to be able to share those links with other auto libraries in the future (if possible) and vice versa. I'm not a lawyer but we are probably getting into a gray area of legal matters at this point.

 

 

 

 

 

[jvolgarino]

36 minutes ago, Terry Bond said:

I've continued to follow with interest.  Lots of thoughts and ideas but one thing that can be done to help everyone's wishes become reality is to make a contribution to AACA's Library and Research Center.  One thing everyone agrees on is this doesn't come cheap.  With a new facility set to open, dedicated staff, enhanced capabilities, and new material arriving constantly, having the financial resources necessary to deal with it is vital and one way everyone can help participate.

Terry

Agreed, Terry, but I think the intention, at least at the moment, is to garner support for a cooperative effort and I'd love to see AACA take the reins and begin reaching out to other organizations to get the discussion going on a larger scale. It will take a financial commitment and there will be lots of opportunities to take advantage of lots of volunteer expertise (technical and otherwise), but if the effort can't make any headway because we can't get the support, even if it's just exposure of the issue, we'll not have accomplished much.

 

I've begun the process of surveying all automotive museums, libraries that contain automotive materials and organizations (like AACA) to determine what is currently held, in what form and if there are any future plans that are going to be implemented to make access as simple as a Google search. I'm also going to include commercial vendors who are selling literature, though it's hard to say how much they might share. I realize that selling literature is their bread and butter so there will be scant interest in trying to make materials available online (possibly with a cost). The recent death of Walter Miller, however, points out the issue of someone having thousands of documents in inventory but no plan about what happens to it when they are no longer there to lovingly care for it.

 

A brief story...about 10 years ago I became curious about the former 1/4 mile dirt track that operated in my hometown for 35 years, shutting down in 1983. It was an important venue and was one of the most active entertainment options in our area, drawing from 3,000 to 5,000 fans each week during the racing season. 

 

At that time Google was just beginning to become a regular part of our vernacular and I did a search to see what was in that big archive in the sky. Nothing. Nada. Not one word. Impossible, I thought. There had to be something for a race track that was so coveted by our community for so many years. So I called the local library. They said they didn't have anything other then newspaper microfilm that you'd have to dig through one paper at a time. No index was available. So I called our local museum which is actually rather sophisticated and has a very active presence in our town. Again, nothing. They had no information of any kind.

 

I was griping about this while sitting around with my car buddies, drinking beer and generally lying about our youth, when one of them said, "well, why don't you do something about it?" Me? I didn't even have a single picture from that 35 years. Not anything. I knew there were newspaper articles, but our newspaper, like so many others, doesn't maintain an archive any longer. But I got a break when I started asking around to former drivers and people I knew that may have worked at the track and found the granddaughter of the owner (another longer story...)and she said she had all her grandfather's scrap books tucked away in plastic totes that she had never bothered to open and look at. But she was willing to let me take a look.

 

Three years later I managed to find some 1200+ images of the track and its events, taken by families and fans with many of those images never seen by the public because no one walked around with those little square black and white Brownie camera photos to show anyone but the people that were in the photo. Those images came from all over the country after I was coaxed (another one of those car buddy gatherings...) to create a Facebook group dedicated to the track's history. The site currently has over 2,000 followers. I was thrilled when it hit 50!

 

Eventually the effort gathered stories and background of the track and its drivers, fans and workers to the point where I knew it would need to be preserved in some form. So I wrote and published a book to document what I found and yes, now you can find Tunis Speedway when you type it into a Google search.

 

What I'm getting at is that initial idea/effort/project has to begin somewhere and BobBurbank and I thought the AACA forum is a good place to start. We're not doing this for money or glory. We just think it's something we've not seen discussed and believe it should be. Hopefully once people begin to understand what this is all about, financial needs will be met. But somebody needs to get the ball rolling. Thanks for taking the time to read this!!

[JBP]

Speaking from experience of managing an extensive archive of documents, images, art, and physical objects, I would offer this observation:

 

As much as you can, separate the emotion and personal feelings you have for the material out of your decision making. Do what’s right for the collection, but don’t let your emotions rule all your decisions. 
 

People get surprisingly territorial, proprietary, and stupid about these things really quickly - and the emotion fuelling it is a killer. 
 

An archive is a collection of memory and shared experience, and for those reasons - even though it SHOULD be nothing but a joy and a blast for those to work on/in - sometimes it can turn rational adults into screaming children: you’re dealing with people’s memories here, and if they feel slighted or left out or that “you don’t understand what this is,” it amplifies all the negativity  and makes dialogue difficult. Just like people, an Archive comes with baggage. Sometimes lots of it. 
 

But don’t let that stop you from trying, if you want to start one. There are moments that I treasure with the experiences I’ve had, and those are what you carry forward. Go for it - the past is worth saving. 

[BobBurbank]

All these comments are very encouraging to Jim & I, the SAH members who brainstormed this topic.  Before we found this forum, another SAH member, Helen Hutchings, suggested we check HathiTrust at https://www.hathitrust.org/ .  It was a revelation when I found much on Packard, although I only have a passing interest in that marque.

But it is a good example of documents already digitized, but that will only be useful if future digitizers are diligent to check existing source before starting a particular project.

Another example, I have seen a large collection of Automobile Topics, a journal/magazine dating to the early 20th century.  Curious about what this was, a google search sent me to the Internet Archive where I found many volumes, already digitized. This may be the earliest: https://archive.org/details/automobiletopics4/page/n17/mode/2up  This may be old news to fellow auto historians, but news to me.  BTW, many Grateful Dead concerts also on the Internet Archive!

Along the way in searching, I came across this ambitious website:  http://earlyamericanautomobiles.com/   Again, probably old news to the old hands!

Anyone curious to better identify your digital images & documents?  This is my experience:

http://carlibrary.org/CarLibrary-Metadata.htm

Don't be afraid of the command line!

[BobBurbank]

One of the stated goals when we originally posted was Goal #4:

4.   Encourage digitization of all automotive resources at all levels - individuals to institutions.

There have been separate email messages exchanged between the original group of 3 SAH members, 4 other SAH members and two other auto historians - one in England.

Although there seems to be agreement on the value of digitization, what is next, especially for individuals?  I started the CarLibrary.org website 8 years ago to list steps to create an archive of digital objects - photos, documents, lists.   Some of the procedures on that website explain Collections Management Systems - which the AACA is now building.  REVS is a great example.

Everyone understands it's better to have a system to "find things" but there's less understanding on the need to develop "metadata" for each object.  These are the descriptors for each digital object.  There's a survey from a few years ago that states 71% of graphic professionals use an Excel spreadsheet to classify their photos.  

A "best practices" method is to embed metadata in each digital object.  This can be done on a limited scale with programs such as Photoshop.  Or with Adobe for PDF files.

I've been using the open-source ExifTool and the ExifTooGUI add-on.  To show how this software can fully document digital photos, I used a webpage of 50 photos from 1952 at the Frazer Nash factory,.  This is how it was done:

http://carlibrary.org/CarLibrary-MetadataDemo.htm

This demo has caused our small SAH group to raise new issues - what data goes into which category and are there standards for the metadata?

Coming next!

 

[jvolgarino]

Bob...I've deeply appreciated the education you've provided this old gearhead about how metadata must be a primary part of this archive/indexing project. I've shared with our SAH group about my recent participation in a historical archive being developed in my home state (fortepaniowa.org) who are excited to include a couple hundred images related to a former dirt track race track in my hometown. I worked three years collecting 1200+ images from dozens of sources that ran the gamut from photo packed shoe boxes to damp and forgotten scrap books no one thought would be of interest to anyone. And that's not including the stories...ah, yes, the stories. Our automotive heritage is rich with them and I can only hope there will be a formal cooperative effort among all these great organizations to share information and resources, take a hard look at duplication and encourage all those private collectors to pull those drawers, boxes and rooms full of materials out into the sunlight and make these collections available to our future researchers and enthusiasts. Thanks again Bob!!!

[padgett]

I've gone from being facinated by history to being part of it. Any more I prefer service manuals (automotive dash ones) to be in searchable .pdf format. Have quite a few thousand scanned pages but GM lawyers have prohibited distribution. Personally have a problem with patents (have a few but still do not like) law and copyright laws (was a serious and very interesting effort to put PGP source code into the public domain instead of controlled by munitions laws - think a dig in my back garage might find some cartons...).

 

Over the years have decided that such were more stifling than encouraging (e.g. Seldom patent and the ALAM).

 

It would be wonderful if you could receive these .pdfs and make them available to enthusiasts. Right now I think Bishko is the only one licensed to produce CDs of GM service manuals.

[BobBurbank]

Hi all -

Nothing new for two weeks, but there has been 10 SAH and AACA members exchanging emails on this topic and there are tangible results.  See:

http://carlibrary.org/CarLibrary-AutoHistory.htm

This is - and will be - a webpage that has links to a prototype "Auto History Resource Guide".   The Guide now has summaries and reviews of nearly 30 history resources .

The current Google Sheet format is not very "user-friendly", but our goal is to copy the data to a solid database.

There also is demonstration of improving the identification of historic photos, using 1952 factory photos of Frazer Nash cars:

http://carlibrary.org/CarLibrary-MetadataDemo.htm

Yes, it's all about "embedded metadata".  Worth reading!

On the previous post by padgett, copyright does not prohibit "fair use"  of such material.  I suggest that the pdfs be donated to an archive, such as the AACA.

Cheers!

Bob S.

[jvolgarino]

Would this be helpful in encouraging collectors to donate printed materials to automotive history related organizations?

107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use⁴¹

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include—

(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;

(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.

[padgett]

This is the issue " the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole" . What I have are .pdfs of compete service manuals for 89-91 Reattas, a parts aand accessories manual, and some period Delco Radio manuals. The only limitation is that the .pfs are scans and not searchable. I have been sending people/ forums individual pages with no charge for "teaching purposes" but each SM is over 1000 pages. Today only the 89 paper manual is available from Helm.

 

That said it is much easier to just tell someone with a question what page in the SM to check for the answer to their question.

 

Bishko has a number of  manuals on CD and is a valuable resource but only for some cars.

 

 

[8E45E]

On ‎5‎/‎24‎/‎2020 at 3:04 PM, jvolgarino said:

I may be old, but I was thrust into this technology stuff many years ago when the printing industry was suddenly faced with digital production. "Impossible" they said. "Not useful". "Completely out of the realm of reality!"

But yet...today we have technology that did the impossible by creating systems that now can produce a one-off full color poster or publication that back in the day would have costs thousands of dollars and taken weeks to complete. 

I agree with this when it comes to digitally enhancing, or digitally reproducing photographs, either from the original prints, or negatives and transparancies. One of the best devices I invested in was a Nikon Coolscan 5000 for digitally archiving my collection of 35mm color slides and negatives.  As well, Patty at 'Imbued with Hues' has been doing a wonderful job of colorizing vintage photos with admirable results as seen here:  https://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/forum/your-studebaker-forum/general-studebaker-specific-discussion/1813688-colorizing-old-photos-esp-studebaker-some-samples

 

Craig

[8E45E]

On ‎5‎/‎20‎/‎2020 at 12:22 PM, Steve Moskowitz said:

Our library is a free library and available to everyone world wide,  it is there for the common good, period. 

How effective is the AACA Library when it comes to translating text from English into different languages for interested ones world wide?  There are car lovers from Europe, Japan, etc., who can only read in their native tongue, and would no doubt want a translation into their language.  There are several French and German publications that I would love to read without having to use Google Translate all the time.   I realize it would be just as monumental an effort as it is taking the first step of digitally archiving a document, and then going through the second step(s) of translating it into several different languages, but it would be another asset for some.

 

Craig

[BobBurbank]

Hi all -

No new posts in a long time!  Since last May, several SAH members have been "meeting" on Zoom to keep auto history preservation active, primarily about coordinating digitization efforts.  Not a good idea to spend much effort and digitize Road & Track more than once!

We also have put together a guide to resources.  It's crude in its Google Sheets format, so we hope to get some expert advice eventually to transition to a database, accessible to anyone.  Also to have a "comments & corrections" function, for anyone to improve this resource.

This is it in "read only" format:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YqjEHHmVcUttsmNtPI_tUobXQMZhh1vbnljmVLtVuiw/edit?usp=sharing

and the general topic is at:

http://carlibrary.org/CarLibrary-AutoHistory.htm

Your comments are welcome!