jvolgarino

might benefit future generations? Why?As much as I love the hobby and all its attributes, I’m deeply disappointed how hard it is to bring organizations together to discuss something we should all be able to embrace.In the past 10 years I’ve made a point of joining all sorts of vintage vehicle enthusiast groups. I wanted to learn what priorities they had and what importance they embraced as they looked toward the future. I’m afraid cooperation isn’t high on anyone’s list. Increasing memberships and income? Yes. Appeal to youth, in some fashion? Sure. Why not. Maintain that archive of information behind that wall of security and paid researchers? Of course. After all, it’s ours and if you want to access it, write your check or fly to a far flung location to leaf through files of paper based materials.SAH membership is made up of good people and much like me few of them are actually historians. Yes, publishing writings on academia.com and maybe creating a book or two is important. But finding cooperation among the automotive faithful is near impossible. And that means our history will eventually be relegated to truckloads of cardboard boxes that will simply hold no importance for historians in the future.Let the criticism begin.

Hoping someone might have some information about this Custer coupe. It has a Briggs single cylinder engine and the car drives, once the engine was "unstuck".

Probably could make a snarky comment about bumper cars vs street driven but won't. Seeking information and what is out there right now is sketchy including the Facebook group. Have seen some descriptions claiming this car was one of two owned by Edsel Ford for his kids to buzz around his estate and a description that this is one of only two ever built by the Custer company. Unfortunately there appears to be nothing to back up either of those claims so the search continues. Actually the car is being offered at auction July 30 in Iowa. Thanks for the reply.

Hoping someone might have some information about this Custer coupe. It has a Briggs single cylinder engine and the car drives, once the engine was "unstuck".

Which model?

Six Pack to Go--You bring up a problem that all of us seeking information are going to continue to be faced with in the future. You would like a downloadable or at least readable copy of an AMA Spec sheet and these are out there, but finding one is a hassle at best. The Automotive Preservation Society site noted above is limited in what it has and if you want something very specific related to a specific vehicle, good luck because a search of their library simply provides a list of file locations, none of which tell you exactly what is there. You will spend a lot of time wandering around inside their "library" looking for things that they have not tagged as part of a file or image. At this point WorldCat.org is probably your best bet because it will show you where these spec sheets are located and tell you if you can get access to them. On a side note, the Petersen Museum supposedly has a complete set of these spec sheets (some of these files are 20-30 pages long) but they are sitting in boxes in a warehouse, untouched and inaccessible unless you are willing to travel to the museum, seek out the archivist and have her dig through boxes to see if she can find what you are looking for. The sad thing is this problem is much the same everywhere. Yes, there are some great libraries out there but the only way to access what is in those libraries is to go there and spend the time trying to find what you want. That isn't right and we enthusiasts who would like to have this information available using today's technology should be complaining loud and clear. I love beautiful surroundings as much as anyone, but when I want information, I want it without having to spend hundreds of dollars to travel somewhere to get it.

I would go to Worldcat.org first and search for the year/model AMA Specifications. It will bring up a number of locations that will have that particular information. If you look to the left you can choose just the digital version which will condense the number of locations to those that will have a downloadable file available.

Seeking full set of AMA/MVMA Specification forms that were provided by all the U.S. manufacturers from 1955 to 1984. These multi-page forms were submitted each year for each model produced and included detailed technical information of every component that made up that specific car or truck. Forms typically were from 10-30 pages in length and I've attached one to this post.

Access is in the eye of the beholder, or something like that. I live in the center of the country so making a trip to the east coast just doesn't make sense unless I am researching a pretty big project that would require many hours in an archive I know is going to have everything I want. The problem is, I have no idea what the AACA Library actually holds as there is no search method that will give me an index of all the information they might have on say, a 1947 Hudson Big Boy 178 pickup. As the generations behind us begin searching for automotive information (please...I sincerely hope they do!) the expectation will be to find what they are looking for online, hopefully scanned into a form they can read (and search!) and download, if needed. I'm still curious what others are experiencing with information resources and now that you have noted it, where these wonderful collections that historians such as yourself, will place that information when it comes time to release it to a new caretaker. When I see literature collections being broken up into bits and pieces and going to places where it might not survive, I cringe. The biggest literature cache I wonder about currently is Walter Miller's Autolit.com (also his website Museum of Automobile Art and Design) which closed down in 2019 and his huge stash of literature is wasting away in his warehouse where no one has shown an interest in preserving. Scary, from my perspective, to witness the sad end to a career collecting up so much history only to have it placed (eventually) into a dumpster. Still hoping some younger (than me!) history buffs are out there that might offer some of their insight on this topic. http://www.moaaad.org/about_mission_statement.php

So Walt...Not knowing your age, what will happen to your collection in say 10-15 years? If someone that is 30 years old today would like to learn more about what you know, how would that person approach it or what would be your advice? Your knowledge of coachwork is an important aspect of our automotive history so future historians will want to have access to information so they can study it much the same way you have, except access will be an issue. I'm currently in the midst of a research project for a publisher wanting to put together a comprehensive history of John Deere tractors. I thought early on when he and I talked, that certainly someone had done this already, but he explained that the history is spread throughout all kinds of publications (with no indexes, by the way), books detailing very specific models or eras and various enthusiast sites where the information might or might not be accurate. My job has been to confirm information, find information that might not be easily found and clear up discrepancies related to early tractor development. I never imagined how daunting that would be, discovering that this single company has built hundreds of models, has revised many of those during various model years, built versions I never heard of and made little effort, as a manufacturer, to archive all the details and minutiae we historians and writers crave to record every bit of information we can find. What you've done is much like many of us have done...gathered everything we can find in the hopes we've found all there is. I've done the same as you, but I'm curious about those coming behind us. Will all those gathering efforts be lost? And will that information survive into the next millennia? I deeply appreciate your response.

As enthusiasts we all, on occasion, want to find information whether it is in a book, magazine or somewhere online. All of us have favorite resources and methods, but what seems to work the best for you? Do you try to visit libraries and archives personally? Do you have an extensive collection of books that provide what you need? Or do you simply rely on Google search (or some other search engine) to point you in the right direction?

Would this be helpful in encouraging collectors to donate printed materials to automotive history related organizations? 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use41 Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include— (1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes; (2) the nature of the copyrighted work; (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work. The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.

Bob...I've deeply appreciated the education you've provided this old gearhead about how metadata must be a primary part of this archive/indexing project. I've shared with our SAH group about my recent participation in a historical archive being developed in my home state (fortepaniowa.org) who are excited to include a couple hundred images related to a former dirt track race track in my hometown. I worked three years collecting 1200+ images from dozens of sources that ran the gamut from photo packed shoe boxes to damp and forgotten scrap books no one thought would be of interest to anyone. And that's not including the stories...ah, yes, the stories. Our automotive heritage is rich with them and I can only hope there will be a formal cooperative effort among all these great organizations to share information and resources, take a hard look at duplication and encourage all those private collectors to pull those drawers, boxes and rooms full of materials out into the sunlight and make these collections available to our future researchers and enthusiasts. Thanks again Bob!!!

Agreed, Terry, but I think the intention, at least at the moment, is to garner support for a cooperative effort and I'd love to see AACA take the reins and begin reaching out to other organizations to get the discussion going on a larger scale. It will take a financial commitment and there will be lots of opportunities to take advantage of lots of volunteer expertise (technical and otherwise), but if the effort can't make any headway because we can't get the support, even if it's just exposure of the issue, we'll not have accomplished much. I've begun the process of surveying all automotive museums, libraries that contain automotive materials and organizations (like AACA) to determine what is currently held, in what form and if there are any future plans that are going to be implemented to make access as simple as a Google search. I'm also going to include commercial vendors who are selling literature, though it's hard to say how much they might share. I realize that selling literature is their bread and butter so there will be scant interest in trying to make materials available online (possibly with a cost). The recent death of Walter Miller, however, points out the issue of someone having thousands of documents in inventory but no plan about what happens to it when they are no longer there to lovingly care for it. A brief story...about 10 years ago I became curious about the former 1/4 mile dirt track that operated in my hometown for 35 years, shutting down in 1983. It was an important venue and was one of the most active entertainment options in our area, drawing from 3,000 to 5,000 fans each week during the racing season. At that time Google was just beginning to become a regular part of our vernacular and I did a search to see what was in that big archive in the sky. Nothing. Nada. Not one word. Impossible, I thought. There had to be something for a race track that was so coveted by our community for so many years. So I called the local library. They said they didn't have anything other then newspaper microfilm that you'd have to dig through one paper at a time. No index was available. So I called our local museum which is actually rather sophisticated and has a very active presence in our town. Again, nothing. They had no information of any kind. I was griping about this while sitting around with my car buddies, drinking beer and generally lying about our youth, when one of them said, "well, why don't you do something about it?" Me? I didn't even have a single picture from that 35 years. Not anything. I knew there were newspaper articles, but our newspaper, like so many others, doesn't maintain an archive any longer. But I got a break when I started asking around to former drivers and people I knew that may have worked at the track and found the granddaughter of the owner (another longer story...)and she said she had all her grandfather's scrap books tucked away in plastic totes that she had never bothered to open and look at. But she was willing to let me take a look. Three years later I managed to find some 1200+ images of the track and its events, taken by families and fans with many of those images never seen by the public because no one walked around with those little square black and white Brownie camera photos to show anyone but the people that were in the photo. Those images came from all over the country after I was coaxed (another one of those car buddy gatherings...) to create a Facebook group dedicated to the track's history. The site currently has over 2,000 followers. I was thrilled when it hit 50! Eventually the effort gathered stories and background of the track and its drivers, fans and workers to the point where I knew it would need to be preserved in some form. So I wrote and published a book to document what I found and yes, now you can find Tunis Speedway when you type it into a Google search. What I'm getting at is that initial idea/effort/project has to begin somewhere and BobBurbank and I thought the AACA forum is a good place to start. We're not doing this for money or glory. We just think it's something we've not seen discussed and believe it should be. Hopefully once people begin to understand what this is all about, financial needs will be met. But somebody needs to get the ball rolling. Thanks for taking the time to read this!!

I've been looking at various information resources and, of course, came across Walter Miller's autolit.com which is still posted, but is not actively accif everything still resides epting orders. When Walter died last November there was news his giant collection of literature and memorabilia was going to auctioned, but I've found nothing that confirms that ever happened. Anyone know the status?

As I've noted earlier, I deeply appreciate the AACA effort. But this issue does need visibility within this community and this forum post, put together by BobBurbank, is a start. How can this message be taken even further? Publications? Other forums? Social media? Maybe some of those organizations and individuals will reconsider their "importance" and put ego aside. We can only try.

Walt G---You've identified the crux of the problem in preservation. It's hard for me, as a lifelong enthusiast, to think that our automotive history will be lost because of an unwillingness to share and cooperate with each other, including organizations. It's a shame and this discussion needs to extend out further to get our brethren to at least consider how important this is. I have multiple friends within the hobby who have collections of vehicles that are never driven. They gaze at them occasionally and cling to memories while those vehicles deteriorate. When asked what they intend to do with those vehicles and all the accompanying literature, memorabilia and "stuff" they shrug and say (I'm paraphrasing, of course) "I guess I don't care...I'll be dead." As enthusiasts I think we should have a much broader view of our hobby and a major concern about it's future. The history of the automobile is an incredible story not taught in our schools except for passing references to topics like Henry Ford's manufacturing acumen or how the gas engine was developed and adapted to everything from transportation to agriculture.

So has there been any discussion between AACA and HCCA about sharing resources either one or the other might not have? And if not, why not? And one last question (okay...I admit it might not be the last one). What is the demographics of the AACA? Average age? Youngest? Oldest? How do those demographics lay out in percentages? As we enthusiasts age, who is coming up behind us and what are their interests? (Guess my one question ended up with multiple parts!)

Vermontboy, I'd love to make contact with your friend to see if those discoveries could be brought to light. It's apparent that we, as current generation enthusiasts, know this information exists, but those discoveries remain shrouded in mystery, never to be part of the continuing automotive story. Having been part of the academic community for a number of years, I can assure you unless those materials are drawn out by enthusiasts, no one will care. And eventually those wonderful donations will simply be lost to neglect and disinterest.

The problem, of course, is no one really knows what has survived and where. Bound materials could be stashed away in cardboard file boxes with no one having an interest in saving the material or getting it to an organization that might preserve it. That's the point. No one knows what is out there and how much duplication exists. I'd be interested in knowing about literature collections that are accessible. Anyone have a complete list?

I may be old, but I was thrust into this technology stuff many years ago when the printing industry was suddenly faced with digital production. "Impossible" they said. "Not useful". "Completely out of the realm of reality!" But yet...today we have technology that did the impossible by creating systems that now can produce a one-off full color poster or publication that back in the day would have costs thousands of dollars and taken weeks to complete. As I've mentioned in past posts, this is not an easy project to take on. It is huge and seems overwhelming. But discussion needs to occur, an effort needs to begin (somewhere) and the time is now, not five years from now, 10 years from now or 20 years from now when a bunch of us will be too old to care. I totally agree with Mark V (above) that there must be a better way to access this information and it will require multiple organizations (and expertise) to make it happen. I just recently ran across the Horseless Carriage Foundation which maintains a digital library containing some of the very earliest automobile publications in the United States. Do other libraries or archives have these also? Is this collection a duplicate of another collection that resides somewhere? Has there been any discussion between Horseless Carriage Foundation and AACA to see where they might work together?

Walt G...you emphasize you a lot in your comments, but honestly this exploration has little to nothing to do with me as an individual. But I am trying to understand how those you(s) in the future will access this astounding amount of information. I can appreciate studying for weeks on end trying to learn about a specific topic...Lord knows I've done plenty of that while working through 40 years of business, writing and teaching. We began this effort to learn what is on the horizon and are there issues that still may need to be addressed. I'm an old gearhead who has lived through a lot of this history and have a distinct interest in seeing it passed along to future generations. As we all know, those future generations are going to have much different expectations than us when it comes to finding information. I've been an AACA member on and off over the years. No particular reason except sometimes I just want to know what the organization is up to as I'm not much of a show goer, club member or restoration addict. Just a midwest kid who grew up around cars, still love them and find I still like to twist wrenches and screwdrivers when I get the chance. I do hope AACA will get more information out there about the effort. It's important and I hope there can continue to be healthy discussion about how this history is going to be preserved. These are legitimate questions coming from car enthusiasts just like you. And, yes, we should let those professional archivists have the time to get the systems in place.

The new AACA library is exciting and I hope someday to have the opportunity to fly out and visit. But that is part of the problem...access. We here in the heartland can't always just pick up and fly to the coast when we want to research something and paying someone else to find that one piece of information we'd like to find sometimes is not workable, particularly if you are writing on deadline and really have no budget for such things. But I am looking forward to what AACA has planned and I hope over time you can acquire some other collections that are out there. This past year I had some contact with the Detroit Public Library's automotive archive which was closed down for a time due to some internal issues and the archivist there said the library continues to work to find funding to keep the archive viable. Money is always a problem, isn't it? If we could have all thought about these issues 50 years ago we might be in a very different place today. But back then I was only concerned about making certain my custom '53 Chevy would run so I could show up downtown in proper fashion!

And I appreciate your realism, Walt. Indeed, there is lots of history wasting away in poorly filed boxes and cabinets and some carefully placed in suitable surroundings, but when those owners who don't want that material handled are gone, then what? Over the past 10 years or so the demographic of car enthusiasts has risen pretty dramatically. We are seeing huge collections of vehicles, not to mention all sorts of materials, suddenly uncovered because no one knew any of that "stuff" existed. In many cases the families simply don't want to deal with it so much of it gets sold off and scattered to more collections where the process will probably repeat itself again (and maybe again). I don't think anyone could have foreseen what has been created in the past century and it's a shame that much of that information will be simply lost due to lack of applying expertise that might, over a period of time, preserve those materials going forward. I can remember when Google first appeared and the founders made the bold assertion that the intent was to scan and make available every single book ever published. Yikes! I thought that was a completely crazy idea. And I'm not certain that has been accomplished, but I know what has been done is sizeable and I applaud them for the effort. It might never be completed in the lifetimes of those founders, but they at least pushed to make the effort. Bringing together the organizations that hold all this history is what this is all about. If the REVS Institute could coordinate its library of racing history images with the Petersen Museum's own image archive, that would be a helpful resource. Or maybe the Detroit Public Library could be indexed through the Simeone Foundation archive of materials (which, by the way, appears to remain in its native paper form). I often think when I'm in the center of a project, "gee, wouldn't be nice if..." and then I continue on, not making any effort to find out if whatever I was thinking about could be done. I have great respect for those organizations that are making the effort to preserve automotive history, but shouldn't those efforts be coordinated and somehow indexed together. I've done my share of leafing through books and magazines looking for some nugget of information and my office is filled with publications I've collected over the past 40 years. But it's time to think about my contemporary 20 or 30 years from now who is thinking, "why didn't somebody organize this?"

The intention of this effort is seek cooperation among organizations whether that is AACA, REVS, Petersen Museum, Detroit Public Library, etc. etc. I appreciate the efforts being made to get automotive history digitized and hopefully accessible without long drawn out procedures that will hamper future historians and enthusiasts. I am an active writer dependent on finding information and it can be frustrating not having access through a common index other than Google. If I search for some obscure manufacturer or personality related to automotive history, I really want to have something more comprehensive that will send me in the right direction without having to dig for hours on end. I understand this is a daunting project. Automotive history is huge (I'm explaining this to the choir, right?) Literature which includes marketing materials, technical information, publications and images are scattered in thousands of locations and yes, there undoubtedly are duplications. Even private collections need to be part of this effort to gather, index and hopefully organize this important information so we can pass this along to future generations in a form they can use. If you've not read https://journal.classiccars.com/2020/05/06/what-will-you-do-with-your-collection-when-your-time-has-come/ please take the time as it points out the challenges we all face as enthusiasts. There needs to be an effort organized in such a way that everyone with information can bring something to the table without fear of competition or territory or any of the other things people seem to think are important in protecting these assets. I recently obtained a copy of Angelo Wallace's Automotive Literature Index 1947-1976. It is a wonderful resource, but is essentially useless unless you are holding it in your hand. It is not digitized, but covers 16 magazines and journals including Automotive Engineering, Car and Driver, Ward's Auto World and Sports Car Illustrated. His first two volumes have over 56,000 entries and future updates and additional volumes were planned, but I've found no further information. I appreciate being wished "good luck" on this endeavor, but what is really needed is a groundswell of support and a beginning effort. If no one takes the time to at least begin the process, then who will do it? Will all that history simply be lost as museums close, private collections get sent to landfills and access is so restricted that all future historians get to experience is frustration?