Need help identifying an Orient buckboard

[barnett468]

I am looking at an Orient buckboard that I am interested in buying but don't know much about them and want to know for certain what year it is and what parts may be incorrect. In photos of other Orients I have seen, the nose of the front and rear wooden housings are nicely curved, but on the one I am looking at, they are not curved, and look more like someone made them in their garage, so I was wondering if the boxes on the one I am interested in are correct.

 

I am also wondering what parts are wrong or missing and where I might be able to find the correct ones. It looks like there is a round "can" missing on the rear of the engine that covers up something just above the starter shaft.

 

Thanks in advance for any help.

Edited October 18, 2019 by barnett468 (see edit history)

[George Albright]

It is an 06 or 07.  Those years when friction drive models made. Missing timer cover, an aluminum cover. Easy to replicate. No loose parts available. All dried up years ago. I have  owned 5 buckboards, none now. George Albright,Florida. Gnalbright@gmail.com 

[keiser31]

The wood hood edge does seem to have a radius like on all of the other examples I see.

Edited October 17, 2019 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[barnett468]

9 minutes ago, keiser31 said:

The wood hood edge does seem to have a radius like on all of the other examples I see.

 

The one I am interested in that I posted photos of definitely does not have a radius. Below is one that does have the radius so it is easy to see the difference.

 

Edited October 18, 2019 by barnett468 (see edit history)

[keiser31]

2 minutes ago, barnett468 said:

The one I am interested in that I posted photos of definitely does not have a radius. Below is one that does have the radius so it is easy to see the difference.

 

Sorry....I meant to say that it doesn't have the radius like the other examples I see. My bad typing.

Edited October 18, 2019 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[barnett468]

1 minute ago, keiser31 said:

Sorry....I meant to say that it doesn't have the radius like the other examples I see.

 

No problem and thanks for yours and George's help.

 

Since the boxes are likely homemade and incorrect, is it still worth anything?

 

Any idea how much to make correct boxes?

 

What are these worth in "C" grade condition (presentable driver grade showing minor wear)?

[mercer09]

to my eye, the whole body looks to be replicated...........

[barnett468]

9 minutes ago, mercer09 said:

to my eye, the whole body looks to be replicated...........

 

This may very well be, and obviously, if it is, the value is far less, but it is still worth something, so I'm just trying to get an idea what a fair value is on it assuming it needs some work to get it running as well. I can live with an incorrect body if the price is right, but then will it be impossible to sell later with the wrong "home made" body if I ever decide to.

 

It would be nice to be able to pay some 2nd year high school wood shop class some money to make the correct parts, lol.

Edited October 18, 2019 by barnett468 (see edit history)

[mercer09]

 

It would be nice to be able to pay some 2nd year high school wood shop class some money to make the correct parts, lol.

 

good luck with that. better to pay for correct body restoration.

 

yes it will hurt resale in its current state.

[barnett468]

3 minutes ago, mercer09 said:

 

It would be nice to be able to pay some 2nd year high school wood shop class some money to make the correct parts, lol.

 

good luck with that. better to pay for correct body restoration.

 

yes it will hurt resale in its current state.

 

It's only wood, so its not that difficult to make, and I could make the drawings if I had to. The hardest part would be forming the curve in the wood. It would be thousands of times more expensive if it was a metal body that had to be reproduced. I don't know anyone in my area that does this type of work though even if I were to try and have a regular custom wood shop make it.

 

 

 

[barnett468]

I could be wrong but I'm going to guess that this body is 100% correct for a 1906.

 

 

[8E45E]

That must be the car in the Gilmore Museum.

[barnett468]

11 minutes ago, 8E45E said:

That must be the car in the Gilmore Museum.

 

 

I have no idea, I just got it from a google search and it did not state where it was located.

[Chris Bamford]

Good morning Barnett

 

For some reason, the photos you originally posted are no longer in that original post. I did find them however in your Edit History.

 

The car you showed looks largely correct. The front "box" is not right, and I'm unsure of the flared seat base and the sides/front of the main box. The sloped surface wood is perhaps correct, but the vertical bits look a little too nice and seem a bit off. Wheels and fenders look correct, although the fenders would have been natural wood, so perhaps there is something changed there. The wheels on the Gilmore Museum (?) car are not right.

 

Photo below is my 1906 Orient Buckboard, owned since 1995. Other than the colour, the car is very correct and original, even has the badges from being shown at Hershey in the late '50s. They can be made to run and drive reasonably well. Mine is happiest about 10-15 mph although I have achieved 22 mph on smooth level pavement in still air.

 

Two years ago, a very presentable '05 or '06 Buckboard sold at RM's Hershey auction for a little less than $10K (IIRC and my notes are not handy). That seemed about right.

 

This year at Hershey, there were FOUR Orients on auction by RM, a '1903, '04, '05 and '06. Only one appeared to have original body wood, and a bunch of shiny replacement wood is a turnoff for me. With four on offer, and it being a pretty goofy car to begin with, we expected sale prices to be low. Nonetheless, and perhaps the Hershey Lodge was spiking the bidders' water, every one brought prices in the low- to mid-$20K range!

[barnett468]

On 10/18/2019 at 5:26 AM, Chris Bamford said:

Good morning Barnett

 

For some reason, the photos you originally posted are no longer in that original post. I did find them however in your Edit History.

 

The car you showed looks largely correct. The front "box" is not right, and I'm unsure of the flared seat base and the sides/front of the main box. The sloped surface wood is perhaps correct, but the vertical bits look a little too nice and seem a bit off. Wheels and fenders look correct, although the fenders would have been natural wood, so perhaps there is something changed there. The wheels on the Gilmore Museum (?) car are not right.

 

Photo below is my 1906 Orient Buckboard, owned since 1995. Other than the colour, the car is very correct and original, even has the badges from being shown at Hershey in the late '50s. They can be made to run and drive reasonably well. Mine is happiest about 10-15 mph although I have achieved 22 mph on smooth level pavement in still air.

 

Two years ago, a very presentable '05 or '06 Buckboard sold at RM's Hershey auction for a little less than $10K (IIRC and my notes are not handy). That seemed about right.

 

This year at Hershey, there were FOUR Orients on auction by RM, a '1903, '04, '05 and '06. Only one appeared to have original body wood, and a bunch of shiny replacement wood is a turnoff for me. With four on offer, and it being a pretty goofy car to begin with, we expected sale prices to be low. Nonetheless, and perhaps the Hershey Lodge was spiking the bidders' water, every one brought prices in the low- to mid-$20K range!

 

 

Thanks very much for your reply, and yours is very nice!

 

I deleted the first photos to replace them with closer photos so it would be easier to see but I haven't had time to find them yet as they are in my other computer, but will post them asap.

 

Do you still have yours, and if so, do you have good close up photos? My plan is to have the front and rear boxes made correctly. I'm pretty sure the seat itself is actually the original one. I can't tell if the sides of the boxes are 1 piece or 2 pieces glued together, but from what i can tell so far in other photos, it looks like they were 1 piece, which would be a custom order if i can even get them because the local hardware stores only have 10" wide pieces.

 

Also, i need to figure out exactly what the curved wood piece on the nose of the boxes are. it looks like it is solid wood, and if so, it had to be carved out of a piece of 4' long 4x4 which seems a bit hard to do, because it is not possible to make that tight of a curve in 1/2" thick solid wood by steaming it.

 

I am going mostly by the orient in the link below, and my guess is that the one below has all the original wood, and it is claimed to be a 1906. If you click on the highlighted link below, then click on the photo in that link, it will bring up more photos of it. You can also super enlarge the photos by clicking on them.

 

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/22174/lot/314/

 

This is the one in the link above. What do you think about this one being original?

 

 

Edited October 19, 2019 by barnett468 (see edit history)

[Chris Bamford]

Hello again Barnett, apologies for the tardy reply.

 

Yes I still have my Orient, however, I do not have any detail photos handy, and I don't expect to see the car for the next couple months. I used to garage it at home and drove it regularly in the neighbourhood, but it now lives at a historic park some distance away. My last drive was in September.

 

The three photos below are scanned from an appraisal done about 10 years ago. 

 

I'm not sure how original the Bonhams car (body) is. Some is surely original, some is recent.The front box is the right shape, but is a different wood type than the seat base box.  Also, the oval hole for front box access is much different than mine, which has a larger rectangular opening. My car, below, distinctly shows joints above and below the leading edge curved piece. The Bonhams car wood is continuous in this area.

 

My carburetor is not correct (modern small engine) but the placement down at frame level is right. The Bonhams car has the wrong carburetor and it is mounted high and near the intake valve. As a result, the fuel tank had to be located even higher and was hung below the seat back cushion. This gives us a clue regarding originality of the rear box — you can see in the side view the former half round notch behind the seat where the original tank was has now been filled in.

 

The extended shroud around the cooling fan shown on the Bonhams car is likely a later embellishment. All the original and restored cars I've seen that have a shroud use a simple, shorter style like mine.

 

The metal parts on both my car and the Bonhams example are repainted the wrong colour. It should be a deep Burgundy red, I think they called it Carmine. This colour is visible in various places on my car, underneath and where the newer bright red has flaked off (look at the top surfaces of the left front motor mount and upper left spring leaf).

 

I've heard the type of restoration done on my Orient in the late fifties is termed a "Clean Knees" restoration.  In other words, they painted everything they could see and reach without getting their pants dirty (or opening the rear deck). In those areas, the original Carmine red paint is obvious and the wood is not painted but stained as it should be.

 

I hope this helps, and I applaud you for wanting your car to be correct. It's much more difficult to get things right than pretty good, but worth it IMO.

 

Where are you located? I might be able to recommend another Orient reasonably near if you would like to visit and inspect.

 

[barnett468]

11 hours ago, Chris Bamford said:

Hello again Barnett, apologies for the tardy reply.

 

Yes I still have my Orient, however, I do not have any detail photos handy, and I don't expect to see the car for the next couple months. I used to garage it at home and drove it regularly in the neighbourhood, but it now lives at a historic park some distance away. My last drive was in September.

 

The three photos below are scanned from an appraisal done about 10 years ago. 

 

I'm not sure how original the Bonhams car (body) is. Some is surely original, some is recent.The front box is the right shape, but is a different wood type than the seat base box.  Also, the oval hole for front box access is much different than mine, which has a larger rectangular opening. My car, below, distinctly shows joints above and below the leading edge curved piece. The Bonhams car wood is continuous in this area.

 

My carburetor is not correct (modern small engine) but the placement down at frame level is right. The Bonhams car has the wrong carburetor and it is mounted high and near the intake valve. As a result, the fuel tank had to be located even higher and was hung below the seat back cushion. This gives us a clue regarding originality of the rear box — you can see in the side view the former half round notch behind the seat where the original tank was has now been filled in.

 

The extended shroud around the cooling fan shown on the Bonhams car is likely a later embellishment. All the original and restored cars I've seen that have a shroud use a simple, shorter style like mine.

 

The metal parts on both my car and the Bonhams example are repainted the wrong colour. It should be a deep Burgundy red, I think they called it Carmine. This colour is visible in various places on my car, underneath and where the newer bright red has flaked off (look at the top surfaces of the left front motor mount and upper left spring leaf).

 

I've heard the type of restoration done on my Orient in the late fifties is termed a "Clean Knees" restoration.  In other words, they painted everything they could see and reach without getting their pants dirty (or opening the rear deck). In those areas, the original Carmine red paint is obvious and the wood is not painted but stained as it should be.

 

I hope this helps, and I applaud you for wanting your car to be correct. It's much more difficult to get things right than pretty good, but worth it IMO.

 

Where are you located? I might be able to recommend another Orient reasonably near if you would like to visit and inspect.

 

 

 

Hi Carl;

 

Thanks very much for your detailed reply, I greatly appreciate it.

 

The curved piece on the nose on the bonham car is actually separate just like it should be. It is only around 4" just like the rear curved piece is. It's just hard to see the seams  unless you have a big screen and blow the photo up, and I'm guessing this curved piece is made from solid wood also instead of plywood, and if this is the case, I will have a hard time finding someone that can make that piece. The rest of the front and rear boxes are quite simple to make correctly once the drawings are done, and could probably be done in 40 hours minus the varnish. I have read that the original wood is oak, so it would be red oak which is easy to come by, and from others I have seen, it may not have had a stain on it, and may just have had varnish, but I haven't been able to determine that yet.

 

As far as the opening in the front box for the steering arm goes, the opening on the bonham car is very similar to another orient I have seen photos of, plus the craftsmanship of the opening on the bonham car is very high, so it at least wasn't made in someones garage, which also suggests it may be original, however, I have also seen orients with just a large oval hole, so is it possible that both are correct?

 

I'm also guessing the engine may need rebuilding. I'm a mechanic and can easily rebuild an automotive and motorcycle engine, so I'm guessing that this engine can't be too difficult to do and any advice is certainly welcome, and I have no idea where to even begin to look for parts if I need any.

 

I would also definitely love to see a correct one in person if you know of any near me. I am in southern California in the Riverside area.

 

 

1906? WITH ENGINE 2768 This one has the oval hole and correctly mounted gas tank

 

.

The trim piece that sticks above the box by around 2" is different on yours, and the car above, and the one below. The piece on the one below is part of the face board, the trim piece on the car above is installed behind the face board, and it looks like yours is more like a moulding that is located on top of the box, so which one is correct, or are they all correct etc? If I had to pick just one as being correct, I would say that yours is, and it is much more like what a cabinet maker would have done. The others are cheap looking, and make me wonder why they would make that trim piece that way after going thru all the trouble to make the nose of the boxes rounded, when they could have just made them square to save time and money.

 

 

.

Here's another one for comparison, so is the face board with the oval hole on this one original? It does not have the molded piece on top like yours.

Also look at the grain on the wood on the side. The boards are almost "mirror image", like they were sawn right next to each other, which is only done on higher end pieces. Were all the orients done this way and the people that have remade their bodies didn't notice it and therefore did them incorrectly?

 

 

.

 

 

.

 

 

 

Edited October 23, 2019 by barnett468 (see edit history)

[JamesLay]

hi all , i have a 1904 orientbuckboard and need some one to explain the oiling system to me and how to oil engine prior to starting,crank case capacity?crankcase vent,i do not have an orignial oiler but the 1904 seems to look like a pump unit not a drip feed.how do you know when to feed oil? thanks

[1937hd45]

2 hours ago, JamesLay said:

hi all , i have a 1904 orientbuckboard and need some one to explain the oiling system to me and how to oil engine prior to starting,crank case capacity?crankcase vent,i do not have an orignial oiler but the 1904 seems to look like a pump unit not a drip feed.how do you know when to feed oil? thanks

 

 

Someone will correct me if I've got this wrong but the engine turns counter clockwise. A friend lost three teeth cranking a 1905 Orient years ago. Bob 

[George Albright]

No they turn clockwise. Brush one cylinder 1907-13 engines turn counter clockwise tho 

[AHa]

I believe the curved board on the front would be easy to make. You would need a board and a form. Small strips would be cut at the right angle to glue back together to make the curve and the piece glued up over the form. In this way the graining would almost match up and of course, if painted, would disappear. It would take some time to match the angles to get good glue joints but totally doable.

 

On second thought, looking back over the posted pictures, it appears there is a center section that is formed to the circumference and a flat top piece and flat front piece all glued together. This again would be easy to replicate. I don't believe any of these bodies is made out of Red Oak tho. Looks to be white oak or Ash.

Edited January 29, 2021 by AHa (see edit history)

[Gregg Anderson]