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Vanderbilt Cup 1908 winner Old 16 information


DFeeney
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I am going to share current pictures taken at the Henry Ford by a fellow Locomobile enthusiast, of Old 16.  Thanks to him for making these pictures available.  I hope that these pictures are enjoyed by a wide group and that these pictures will encourage you to savor our history, in this case the 1908 Locomobile Old 16 victory at the Vanderbilt Cup Race.  This victory was the first major victory by an American made automobile competing against the best the world had to offer in 1908.  That is a feat worth remembering and we still have that race car as shown in these pictures.

 

Enjoy......

 

Al

 

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I plan to study these pictures and pose any questions, I may have, referring to the picture by number.  Enjoy and thanks again to the presenter of these fine current pictures of Locomobile Old 16.

Al

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On picture 4, I have open questions that I am hoping those reading here might be able to share information on.

1- What is the little round gauge on the upper left?

2- I am guessing that the small plate on the left is a Selden plate.  Can anyone confirm that guess of mine and provide the Selden number to this audience?

3- What is the small tag to the right of what I think is the Selden plate?

More later.....

Al

Edited by alsfarms
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Need a bit of clarification here please: there is a topic here on the AACA Forums that was started on Sept, 14,2004 on SELDEN patent plates.

All the mention of Seldom, Sheldon etc. is very very confusing - do you indeed mean SELDEN?  The Selden plates were round or rectangular from what I have seen over the decades. If there is nothing I mention connected to what is being discussed then I apologize , only Sheldon I know of is a new TV show Young Sheldon....................

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Hello Walt....

My gosh...I wonder who was proofreading my post!  It sure looks like I didn't do a very good job!  I will go and fix my goofs!  My question was about Selden Plates or what appears to be a Selden plate on the dash of Old 16.

Al

Edited by alsfarms
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I have not been near the car in a while, but, the small gauge on the firewall is for fuel pressure. The air pump for the gas tank is on the floor and you can see my "mechanician" pumping it while it is being driven. The small petcock-looking thing below the small gauge releases the fuel pressure. The four brass "T" handles on the are spring loaded oil pumps-you pull them out and the push oil through four lines.

 

One of the firewall plates is the Selden plate, but I do not remember the number. I forgot what the other firewall plate is. 

Edited by motoringicons (see edit history)
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Hello and thanks for your incites on the controls of Old 16.  I noticed by watching the video that shows you driving Old 16 and a couple of other early videos also attached to your link from the 1940's - 50's that only the Selden plate was there at that time?  I wonder now if the second plate is some kind of tour plate?  You are lucky to be one of those gifted few to get the opportunity to drive Old 16.  On the Selden plate, the number should be likely a proper number that would have been assigned to Locomobile in 1906.  Is that a correct assumption?

Al

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13 minutes ago, alsfarms said:

Hello and thanks for your incites on the controls of Old 16.  I noticed by watching the video that shows you driving Old 16 and a couple of other early videos also attached to your link from the 1940's - 50's that only the Selden plate was there at that time?  I wonder now if the second plate is some kind of tour plate?  You are lucky to be one of those gifted few to get the opportunity to drive Old 16.  On the Selden plate, the number should be likely a proper number that would have been assigned to Locomobile in 1906.  Is that a correct assumption?

Al

Wonder no more.A05CDA0A-713E-4F31-B51A-8983CDA97497.jpeg.fb00f1847498f71d5b9c8548a082ccd2.jpeg

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It’s sad to see a car that was part of the hobby get shunted onto a platform never to be driven again. I would argue that that museum is the worst possible place it could have ended up. And yup.....they do sell lots of great cars that were donated to them.........one of their “forever keeper” cars is now in our collection. We actually drive it and show it..........

 

 

I had a ride in Old 16 and it was a blast, to me it’s a car. Sitting on Jack stands it’s a dead artifact and now no longer part of living history.

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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17 minutes ago, edinmass said:

It’s sad to see a car that was part of the hobby get shunted onto a platform never to be driven again. I would argue that that museum is the worst possible place it could have ended up. And yup.....they do sell lots of great cars that were donated to them.........one of their “forever keeper” cars is now in our collection. We actually drive it and show it..........

 

 

I had a ride in Old 16 and it was a blast, to me it’s a car. Sitting on Jack stands it’s a dead artifact and now no longer part of living history.

Tragic. A dynamic machine relegated static display. Unconscionable to say least. Very poor stewardship.

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George.......I think of that car as a driver. It was common to see it in use, and enjoyed. Now I see it at the Ford Museum...........it’s just another inanimate piece of junk. In our museum.......we have a few sayings we live by.....

 

Reach for perfection, and you can achieve excellence.

 

Drive it like you stole it!

 

It’s not a paperweight, it has wheels.

 

Now it may as well have been scrapped for WWII........a sad ending to a fantastic piece of Americana.

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43 minutes ago, edinmass said:

George.......I think of that car as a driver. It was common to see it in use, and enjoyed. Now I see it at the Ford Museum...........it’s just another inanimate piece of junk. In our museum.......we have a few sayings we live by.....

 

Reach for perfection, and you can achieve excellence.

 

Drive it like you stole it!

 

It’s not a paperweight, it has wheels.

 

Now it may as well have been scrapped for WWII........a sad ending to a fantastic piece of Americana.

Riker designed. Locomobile built and campaigned to a win. Rule change 1909 race prevented Locomobile from continuing to race Old 16. It was then used as a showroom attraction. Session acquired Old 16 and cherished it until Joe Tracy brokered it to Peter Helck. Helck enjoyed, memorialized and shared Old 16 as much as any man can. Brokered, traded and or sold to Henry Ford Museum. Run by them until it failed for what reason they never explained or admitted.

Now they stuff it and place in a diorama for all to walk by and not get to hear, smell or feel the power of hard work, guts and internal combustion in it’s primal form.

Good job Henry Ford Museum. Exactly not what Henry created the museum for. 

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You fellows have taken the words out of my mouth.  If the Mormon Meteor could be put back in running driving condition, time will make a change for Old 16.  I feel sure of it, I just don't know when or how.

Al

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George, When was the dash board picture taken of Old 16 that you posted?  Very clear that the plate to the right is a serial number plate.  As I mentioned, in a post above, a dash board view from the video taken in the 40's or early 50's, the serial number tag was not there at that time.  I am no expert on real early serial plates, and I want to understand, but my gut, like Ed states, is questioning the authenticity of the serial tag that was installed some time after that video was taken.  The serial tag appears the same as what my 1909 should have.  I thought the earlier tags were different.  Can someone shed some light?

Al

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There is nothing strange about that serial plate. The number on it is 1619. Go to the serial number list. It’s a 1908 H #. Car was probably given tags once it was sold to Session. If that car not right nothing is. Go back to work on your cars. Time better spent.

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Hmmm...... interesting.  Good council, work on projects.  However, knowledge is good, even with Old 16.  I am reading, currently, "The Checkered Flag".  I am not yet to the chapters on the Vanderbilt Cup Races.  Most interesting read.  The US sure had some serious ground to make up regarding our competitive offerings.  Old 16 made a very real statement with the victory of 1908.

Al

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While scouting around the internet regarding tid-bits of information on Locomobile Old 16, I ran across two sources of information with conflicting data.  These two bits of information involve the bore and stroke of Old 16.  The first source of information and a description of Locomobile Old 16 is the Henry Ford (Museum).  The web page dedicated to Old 16 is nice with several pictures.  It could probably be a bit more comprehensive for those of us who are very interested in history and early American Automobile Racing, but adequate for the general public who just want to see a picture.  The second source was found on Vanderbilt Cup Races.com.  The story, and history was much more complete as well as presented in an intelligent manner.  Here is what I found peculiar, the Henry Ford stated that Old 16 was rated at 990 CID and 120 hp whereas the Vanderbilt Cup website specified the bore and stroke of Old 16 to be 7-1/4" X 7-1/4", or 1197.2 CID and rated 120 hp and 1000 rpm.  I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer but I do know how to calculate CID.  I put it to the test on my home computer and determined that as I did round PI and I did end up with 1196.58 CID based on the bore and stroke of 7-1/4" X 7-1/4", which I assumed to be accurate.  This figure is very close to what was listed on the Vanderbilt Cup Races .com but not even close to what is listed on the Henry Ford Old 16 page.  Could someone here, with more specific knowledge, please confirm my calculation?  Maybe the Henry Ford needs to be contacted to correct an error?

Al

Edited by alsfarms
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While 7 1/4 by 7 1/4" definitely equals 1196.58 CID, I don't think anyone has actually had the motor apart to really measure  the bore and stroke. Not sure if the 7 1/4 by 7 1/4 is for real or just stories passed on from one " historian " to another over the last 100 years. 

 

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Edited by motoringicons (see edit history)
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11 hours ago, motoringicons said:

While 7 1/4 by 7 1/4" definitely equals 1196.58 CID, I don't think anyone has actually had the motor apart to really measure  the bore and stroke. Not sure if the 7 1/4 by 7 1/4 is for real or just stories passed on from one " historian " to another over the last 100 years. 

 

 

I found a data sheet of the 90HP racer, dated 1907, this shows a bore of 7 1/4 and a stroke of 6 inch, equals 1024.4 cdi. Any comments?

racer 3.jpg

racer 4.jpg

Edited by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)
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