'65 electrical fail - No brake lights, signals, radio, or fan?

[65VerdeGS]

Took my '65 out for a ride yesterday.  After a 15 minute ride I pulled into my first stop with the stock AM/FM radio on, and the heater fan on medium setting.

 

When I got back into the car to drive away I noticed I had no turn signals, either left or right, nothing.  Strange...  I then noticed there was no heater fan, and the radio was also silent.  It was dark, and there was also no radio dial light, or sound.  Nothing.  Suspecting the turn signal switch, I stopped and asked a passerby to let me know if I had any brake lights.  Negative - no brake lights.  Headlights, tail lights, and instrument cluster lamps were all working fine. Interior lights also working fine. 

 

So, I carefully drove home without signals or stop lights.  After parking the car, I checked the fuse panel but all the fuses seemed to be okay. 

 

Now I'm really puzzled.  What could have gone wrong?  No brake lights can be caused by a bad turn signal switch, but why would the radio and blower fan also fail at the same time?

 

Any suggestions on what could have gone wrong?  What should I do next?

 

Thanks,

[gungeey]

turn signals/blower/radio all work off the accessory from your ignition switch check for harness plug melting/warpage

the taillights are on their own line

may be a two pronged problem, I would undo the access panel under the ignition switch and start from there

 

[1965rivgs]

Hi Alex,

  It has been awhile since I drove a first gen riv regularly and dont have time to check a schematic for your particular symptoms but if my memory serves me well it sounds like you have a blend of switched and non switched failures? Determining same will get you off to a start in troubleshooting your present problem.

  Although not particularly targeted to address your specific symptoms but I would strongly suggest at some point that you drop the fuse box, pull off the plastic face plate, and inspect the connections on the back of the box. There will be 2 wires you want to especially pay attention to. There will be a large diameter red wire which feeds the "always hot" busbar of the fusebox. On the opposite side of the fusebox there will be a large diameter brown wire which supplies switched voltage to the "ignition switched" busbar. Both of these wires connect to their respective busbars with a female push on connector. It is VERY common to find one or both of these connections to be compromised due to heating/cooling cycles and connector deterioration. You may find excessive heat and burning from arcing.

  This is a VERY common problem so even if your problem exists elsewhere consider the time you spend on this inspection to be well spent.

  I recently sold a couple of fuse box harnesses so inspected the 8 or 10 fuse box harnesses I have in inventory. 80% of the boxes I inspected were on the verge of failure due to one or both of these connections. I can supply pics if you like.

Good luck!

Tom

[65VerdeGS]

15 minutes ago, 1965rivgs said:

Hi Alex,

  It has been awhile since I drove a first gen riv regularly and dont have time to check a schematic for your particular symptoms but if my memory serves me well it sounds like you have a blend of switched and non switched failures? Determining same will get you off to a start in troubleshooting your present problem.

  Although not particularly targeted to address your specific symptoms but I would strongly suggest at some point that you drop the fuse box, pull off the plastic face plate, and inspect the connections on the back of the box. There will be 2 wires you want to especially pay attention to. There will be a large diameter red wire which feeds the "always hot" busbar of the fusebox. On the opposite side of the fusebox there will be a large diameter brown wire which supplies switched voltage to the "ignition switched" busbar. Both of these wires connect to their respective busbars with a female push on connector. It is VERY common to find one or both of these connections to be compromised due to heating/cooling cycles and connector deterioration. You may find excessive heat and burning from arcing.

  This is a VERY common problem so even if your problem exists elsewhere consider the time you spend on this inspection to be well spent.

  I recently sold a couple of fuse box harnesses so inspected the 8 or 10 fuse box harnesses I have in inventory. 80% of the boxes I inspected were on the verge of failure due to one or both of these connections. I can supply pics if you like.

Good luck!

Tom

Hi Tom,

 

Thanks for relaying your experience with the fuse box and the red and brown wires that may be causing my problem. 

 

It would be most useful if you could supply pictures so I know what to look for, and can interpret what I see.

 

That brings me to the next question - what goes bad with that red and the brown wire?  Does the female push-on connector come apart from heat?  Or does the connection melt?  How would I fix either problem?  Would I need a new fuse box and wiring? 

 

Thanks again for being a valued resource to us Riv Nuts!

[1965rivgs]

16 minutes ago, 65VerdeGS said:

Hi Tom,

 

Thanks for relaying your experience with the fuse box and the red and brown wires that may be causing my problem. 

 

It would be most useful if you could supply pictures so I know what to look for, and can interpret what I see.

 

That brings me to the next question - what goes bad with that red and the brown wire?  Does the female push-on connector come apart from heat?  Or does the connection melt?  How would I fix either problem?  Would I need a new fuse box and wiring? 

 

Thanks again for being a valued resource to us Riv Nuts!

  Due to heating and cooling, which is normal, the female connectors lose their spring tension and become loose. Due to the space created from loosening there is arcing which produces heat and burning. The loosening and burning creates further resistance in the connection which results in more heating, resistance, etc...and the wiring ends and the wire itself will eventually fry and become brittle, prone to breakage and non-conductive.

Tom

Tom

[65VerdeGS]

1 hour ago, 1965rivgs said:

  Due to heating and cooling, which is normal, the female connectors lose their spring tension and become loose. Due to the space created from loosening there is arcing which produces heat and burning. The loosening and burning creates further resistance in the connection which results in more heating, resistance, etc...and the wiring ends and the wire itself will eventually fry and become brittle, prone to breakage and non-conductive.

Tom

 

Thanks Tom.  

 

If you get a chance it would be much appreciated if you could take a picture or two of the connections that fail.  

 

I'll take my fuse box apart in the next few days to see what condition it's in.  Hopefully I can clean up the connection and get things working again - if that's what has caused my problem.

 

Cheers,

 

[KongaMan]

Unfortunately, you frequently find that connectors have become corroded, the insulation cracked and brittle, and the wire itself has broken strands.  This can happen at either end: the fuse box or ignition switch.  In those cases, simply cleaning the connection is not really enough.

 

It won't do much for issues at the fuse box, but you can save the deterioration of your ignition switch and connector by using the brown ACC wire to power a relay rather than pulling the entire load through the switch.  Use the relay to power the ACC circuits.

[jsgun]

My money is on the wire junction at the horn relay. Horn relay is on the driver's side fenderwell. You'll see the battery cable running to it, then a branch off to the starter solenoid. You'll also see a red 10ga wire coming from that junction (on the stud coming from the relay). (There might be a second one, that's the charge wire from the alternator.) Check that connection. That wire runs to the firewall, there's a small screw there on a flat terminal coming from that firewall bulkhead connector. I'd check that too. This is the main power coming into the car, before it's split into the switched and unswitched power on the fuseblock. Your problem is there, or possibly before it. On the other side of the firewall, that wire goes to the unswitched side of the fuseblock, then a branch to the headlight switch, and a branch from that to the ignition switch. So something is failing before power gets to any of that stuff.

 

I suspect the connections are dirty or corroded. Possibly a wire pulling from the wire terminal. My terminals were fairly corroded. I'm working off of what I know about my 64, but I think your 65 is very similar. Attached is a pic of where that wire meets the firewall bulkhead connector.

Edited December 29, 2018 by jsgun (see edit history)

[1965rivgs]

Fuse box #1...this is a "normal" fuse box. The brown wire that brings voltage to the "switched" busbar is on the left and the red wire which brings voltage to the "always hot" busbar is on the right. Aside from checking to make sure the connecters are still tight I see no cause for concern in this fuse box.

 

[1965rivgs]

Fuse box #2...obviously this fuse box has seen some active moisture exposure but that is not our focus. Notice the brown switched wire on the left. The wire/terminal has overheated and burned off the insulation making the wiring brittle, prone to breakage. The overheating also promotes corrosion at the wire/strands to connecter interface which adds to the resistance in addition to the same process at the male/female terminal. The heating/cooling causes the spring tension to be lost in the female terminal inside "tongue" which starts the whole process.

[1965rivgs]

Fuse box #3....someone has obviously been in here and made a half assed repair. Notice the electrical tape to cover the bare wires and they have gutted the tongue from the female connecter, probably to crimp what`s left of the terminal.

  The proper method to repair this is to cut off the wire end until one gets back to good, clean wire, adding whatever length of wire is necessary, and crimp a new female terminal to replace the original. An alternative would be to substitute a completely new wire if one does not care for mid wire splices. However, I believe this wire has several branches so that may get complicated. There are also preventive measures like adding a dab of solder covering the female/male connection, adding relays, etc...one could also change the end terminal to something like a closed ring terminal with a dedicated fastener like a machine screw. I think there is plenty of room and material to do so.

  There are expensive, complicated crimping tools to reproduce the factory crimps or there are inexpensive ones which are easy to use and do a great job. I prefer the later but I have used several varieties of each and for the most part they all work to produce a good, tight physical connection.

  These particular fuse boxes have an issue with the brown switched wire but I have boxes which also have the same issues at the red large diameter wire on the right and in some cases BOTH wires.

  Tom Mooney

Edited December 29, 2018 by 1965rivgs (see edit history)

[KongaMan]

10 hours ago, jsgun said:

My money is on the wire junction at the horn relay.

 

Doesn't all power to the light and ignition switches come through that wire?  IOW, if that connection is bad, the car wouldn't run, headlights wouldn't work, etc.

[pyntre]

I am shocked ( pun intended ) that more classic / old , cars don’t burn to the pavement with such old , brittle wiring and fuse boxes !!! 😬

[RivNut]

Turn signals and brake lights both go through the turn signal switch.  Tail lights and headlights don't.   But headlights and tail lights work when the car is not running.  Turn signals and brakes (as well as radio and fan) need the car running (ignition on), so that fuse box looks like a good place to start.  Take your test light and see if you have 12V going to the turn signal switch.  If you don't, get on that fuse box.  Be sure to take pictures as you go so you can document what you found and what your solution was.

 

Ed

[jsgun]

3 hours ago, KongaMan said:

 

Doesn't all power to the light and ignition switches come through that wire?  IOW, if that connection is bad, the car wouldn't run, headlights wouldn't work, etc.

that's the tricky part. I think it has to be a combination issue. I think there's just enough power coming through that allows the ignition switch to energize the starter solenoid, without enough amp ability to power anything else. I'm betting the coil is getting power from the yellow wire off the starter (the 12v start bypass wire). This is a guess based of my experiences.

 

When I first got my 64, it did the same thing, other than I had headlights. Nothing else worked. I could start the car, and flip on the lights, and everything else was completely dead to the world. I found combination issues, my fuseblock contacts were all rusted, and most of my terminal contacts were corroded. I also had several burnt wires on the engine side. I think there was so much resistance (from corrosion) in so many circuits that nothing would energize. 

Edited December 29, 2018 by jsgun (see edit history)

[1965rivgs]

Alex,

  I took a look at the `65 wiring diagram to refresh my memory. All the systems you describe as non-op are switched voltages. Check your ignition switch itself, specifically the brown wire and connecter on the back of the switch, and the brown wire on the back of the fuse box. There is a remote possibility the brown wire has failed between the ignition switch and fuse box but that is highly unlikely. BTW, the brown wire between the ignition switch and the fuse box is a lone wire and can be easily substituted with a new wire.

  Hope this helps,

Tom

PS Noticed the factory wiring diagram does not include the high blower relay on the pass fender well...hilarious....

[jsgun]

2 hours ago, pyntre said:

I am shocked ( pun intended ) that more classic / old , cars don’t burn to the pavement with such old , brittle wiring and fuse boxes !!! 😬

 

I drove my 67 mustang for about 6 years, before I rebuilt the engine compartment wiring harness to handle a higher output alternator. I found that the original alternator charge wire was completely bare, from end to end. I also had melted connectors from the steering column for some reason. The wiring on cars is just enough to make it function, with almost no built in protection for shorts. 

[Rivman]

1 hour ago, 1965rivgs said:

Check your ignition switch itself, specifically the brown wire and connecter on the back of the switch, and the brown wire on the back of the fuse box. There is a remote possibility the brown wire has failed between the ignition switch and fuse box but that is highly unlikely. BTW, the brown wire between the ignition switch and the fuse box is a lone wire and can be easily substituted with a new wire.

  Hope this helps,

Tom

 

I agree, be sure to inspect the wires on your ignition switch!

 

 

 

Luckily I saw the "flames" between the gaps in the dash panels and put it out before it did too much damage.

[pyntre]

First thing I always do on these old cars , new rubber fuel lines , new flex / rubber brake lines , and then go through the electrical system , most of the time I end up rewiring the majority of a car ,,, my 65 Riviera , all hand built looms , not a foot of original wire in it . To say the factory fuse box for a fully loaded 65 Riviera is adequate protection is pretty sketchy in my book ... and then look at the 2 cigar lighter hot leads ... zero protection , hot all the time ... scary  

[pyntre]

If you really want to learn something about auto electric , 12 volt stuff,  get in touch with Mark Hamilton at MAD ELECTRICAL ... the nicest guy and a genius with anything that will make a spark !!!  

[KongaMan]

26 minutes ago, pyntre said:

 ... and then look at the 2 cigar lighter hot leads ... zero protection , hot all the time ... scary  

 

The lighter circuit may be sketchy for other reasons, but doesn't each lighter have a built-in fuse?

[RivNut]

21 minutes ago, Rivman said:

 

I agree, be sure to inspect the wires on your ignition switch!

 

 

 

Luckily I saw the "flames" between the gaps in the dash panels and put it out before it did too much damage.

Man, that's ugly.  But it's good for everyone to see what can happen.

[RivNut]

1 minute ago, KongaMan said:

 

The lighter circuit may be sketchy for other reasons, but doesn't each lighter have a built-in fuse?

Quote

Yep. An inline one. It's part of the heating element.

 

[KongaMan]

2 hours ago, jsgun said:

that's the tricky part. I think it has to be a combination issue. I think there's just enough power coming through that allows the ignition switch to energize the starter solenoid, without enough amp ability to power anything else. I'm betting the coil is getting power from the yellow wire off the starter (the 12v start bypass wire).

 

Hmm...  When the ignition switch goes from start to run, isn't the circuit to the starter (and hence, that yellow wire) broken?  If it weren't, you'd be getting 12V to the coil all the time, no?

 

2 hours ago, jsgun said:

When I first got my 64, it did the same thing, other than I had headlights. Nothing else worked. I could start the car, and flip on the lights, and everything else was completely dead to the world. I found combination issues, my fuseblock contacts were all rusted, and most of my terminal contacts were corroded.

 

Peculiar.  Given that the headlights may be the largest current draw in the car, you might think that if there's enough power for them, there's enough power through that red wire wire for anything else.  Since the headlights go through neither the ignition switch nor the fuse box, one might think that the problem(s) lie in the wiring to the fuse box or the ignition switch itself.

 

 

[1965rivgs]

On 12/29/2018 at 7:04 PM, Rivman said:

 

I agree, be sure to inspect the wires on your ignition switch!

 

 

 

Luckily I saw the "flames" between the gaps in the dash panels and put it out before it did too much damage.

  Wow...have never seen one melt down to that extent. I have witnessed a whisp of smoke and keyed off to inspect but this is impressive! High miles and lots o key cycles....almost has the appearance of a dead short....

  Good news is this fuse block to dash harness is relatively painless to replace in its entirety, which I would strongly consider as a repair for this mess.

  Good luck Randall !!

Tom

[telriv]

To protect ALL the wiring in the old cars I add a fusible link to the wires coming off the junction block/horn relay. Protected right at the source including the cigar lighters.  I even do this on 6 vlt. cars. Better to be safe than sorry is my motto.  If you cut back the harness you can conceal the fusible links in the harness & NO ONE can really tell the protection is there.  Right off the ignition switch is a black ground wire. When the red wire melts back far enough it also melts the black wire & you have a DIRECT short to ground!!!!

[Rivman]

5 hours ago, 1965rivgs said:

  Wow...have never seen one melt down to that extent. I have witnessed a whisp of smoke and keyed off to inspect but this is impressive! High miles and lots o key cycles....almost has the appearance of a dead short....

  Good news is this fuse block to dash harness is relatively painless to replace in its entirety, which I would strongly consider as a repair for this mess.

  Good luck Randall !!

Tom

 

Yep, I didn't realize there was a problem until the insulation was on fire, thus the extreme melting. For a second, maybe less, I thought about letting it burn and collecting the insurance for it, but, that would have meant the '72 GS and the Silver Arrow up in smoke too, so I decided to put it out.

 

Already purchased a replacement harness, from Gene, and a new ignition switch, to replace everything involved. I'll check everything out when I do the install … eventually I hope.

[1965rivgs]

1 hour ago, Rivman said:

 

Yep, I didn't realize there was a problem until the insulation was on fire, thus the extreme melting. For a second, maybe less, I thought about letting it burn and collecting the insurance for it, but, that would have meant the '72 GS and the Silver Arrow up in smoke too, so I decided to put it out.

 

Already purchased a replacement harness, from Gene, and a new ignition switch, to replace everything involved. I'll check everything out when I do the install … eventually I hope.

LOL...this car seems to narrowly escape destruction! Might not be a bad idea to go ahead and check or replace the red and brown wire terminals at the ignition switch and check the same wires/terminals on the back of the fuse box. Also, just throwing this out there as general information, if one`s car has cruise or Guidematic the harness is different. There is often a part number tag with three numbers on the harness. The three numbers are the last three digits of the GM part number.....or check for terminals/wiring/fuses at those positions in the fuse block. Be sure you have the correct harness before installing, wouldnt want to do this job twice! Good luck,

Tom

[bodayguy]

Not sure if we had the same issue, but mine wouldn't start last week. Power was fine until you clicked the ignition over, then it's like a whole fuse blew. Everything went out.

 

If I went and jiggled the positive cable on the battery everything came back on after a bit.

 

This afternoon, I went and sprayed all the electrical connections from the battery to the firewall with cleaner, then noticed the RED wire at the horn relay was burnt a bit at the connection. I jiggled that a little and sprayed it a lot. The car started as normal.

 

So I'm guessing I need to replace that red connector point. Hoping it's not a problem with the ignition, that didn't seem like my issue.

Edited January 1, 2019 by bodayguy (see edit history)

[65VerdeGS]

On 12/29/2018 at 7:38 AM, 1965rivgs said:

Fuse box #2...obviously this fuse box has seen some active moisture exposure but that is not our focus. Notice the brown switched wire on the left. The wire/terminal has overheated and burned off the insulation making the wiring brittle, prone to breakage. The overheating also promotes corrosion at the wire/strands to connecter interface which adds to the resistance in addition to the same process at the male/female terminal. The heating/cooling causes the spring tension to be lost in the female terminal inside "tongue" which starts the whole process.

 

Thank you everyone for your tips on tracing my electrical problem!!  I dug into it last night, and here's what I found.

 

First, I checked my ignition switch.  Fortunately all looked good there:

 

Then, I checked the underhood connections, including the bulkhead connectors and the connections at the horn relay.  All looked good and firm, with minimal corrosion.

 

Finally, I took the fuse box out and removed the plate to reveal the wiring behind the fuses. I quickly saw the source of my problem - the brown switched power wire had overheated, melting a part of its insulation and loosening the female terminal.  This is exactly as Tom suspected:

 

I also noticed that the insulation on the yellow wire that feeds the radio circuit had melted where it touched the brown wire.  See lower right of photo below where the yellow wire insulation has melted where it touched the brown wire.  Note: I separated the yellow wire from the brown feed wire before taking this photo:

 

To confirm the source of the problem, I pushed the brown feed wire terminal back on tightly, and held the yellow radio circuit wire apart from the brown feed wire. When I turned the ignition switch to ON, or ACCESSORY, all the switched circuits came back to life!

 

I then examined the fuses and found the radio circuit had been fitted with a 10 amp fuse instead of the 7.5 amp fuse it's supposed to have.  Could this have caused the yellow wire to overheat and melt into the brown wire? 

 

So, now I must fix the problems. How should I fix the wiring that has melted?  And the brown wire female connector?

 

I could simply tape the melted yellow radio wire to cover the melted portion.  Ditto for the brown wire.  I could then disconnect the brown wire, clean the female connection, and use needle-nose pliers to firmly tighten the connector.  But, will this be enough?  What's the best way to clean the corrosion from the brown wire female connector?  

 

Should I do anything about the other rusty connections on the back of the fuse box?   The red unswitched feed wire connection looks immaculate, but some of the other connections are a bit rusty.

 

Thanks again to all of you that offered tips on my problem.

 

Happy New Year to you all, and thanks for being so helpful to your fellow Riviera enthusiasts!

 

 

 

 

[1965rivgs]

Alex,

  Review my post regarding repairs. It is not enough to attempt to use the original terminal because it will not maintain pressure enough to keep the connection tight. The spring steel nature of the metal has been destroyed by heating and cooling cycles. That is why it is loose. You will have to replace the original connecter and very likely a few inches of the brown wire at its end. If you want to change from a slip on terminal to something more positive you might consider a closed ring terminal and a machine screw to secure same. I have never felt the need to build that much insurance into the connections but it is certainly advisable and appears doable to me.

  The yellow wire can carry more than 10 amps without melting. The 7.5 amp fuse is more to protect the radio. The wire appears melted from touching the brown wire. I have seen the large diameter brown and red wire get hot enough to melt a pattern into the plastic fuse block cover and still look OK at the connector!

  Tom

[65VerdeGS]

41 minutes ago, 1965rivgs said:

Alex,

  Review my post regarding repairs. It is not enough to attempt to use the original terminal because it will not maintain pressure enough to keep the connection tight. The spring steel nature of the metal has been destroyed by heating and cooling cycles. That is why it is loose. You will have to replace the original connecter and very likely a few inches of the brown wire at its end. If you want to change from a slip on terminal to something more positive you might consider a closed ring terminal and a machine screw to secure same. I have never felt the need to build that much insurance into the connections but it is certainly advisable and appears doable to me.

  The yellow wire can carry more than 10 amps without melting. The 7.5 amp fuse is more to protect the radio. The wire appears melted from touching the brown wire. I have seen the large diameter brown and red wire get hot enough to melt a pattern into the plastic fuse block cover and still look OK at the connector!

  Tom

Hi Tom,

 

Yes, I just re-read your post regarding repairs. So that's what I'll do - replace the female connector and splice in a new bit of wire with a new female connector.  The yellow radio feed wire melted because the brown one was overheated, not because a 10 amp fuse was put in place of a 7.5 amp one.

 

Thanks again for your help, and Happy New Year!

[KongaMan]

1 hour ago, 65VerdeGS said:

So that's what I'll do - replace the female connector and splice in a new bit of wire with a new female connector.

 

If you're going to do that, you might consider using the brown wire to trigger a relay while drawing the buss feed directly from the battery (i.e. run an 8 or 10 ga. wire from the junction block to the relay, bypassing the ignition switch).  Think about it: that brown wire already shows signs of severe heat damage.  The current which caused that damage is drawn through the other end of the wire and the switch.  Why presume they aren't also damaged to some degree?  If you use that wire to trigger a relay rather than supply that heavy current draw, the wiring and the switch will be much better off -- and whatever accessories you're running will work better, because they will be getting higher voltage.

 

1 hour ago, 65VerdeGS said:

The yellow radio feed wire melted because the brown one was overheated, not because a 10 amp fuse was put in place of a 7.5 amp one.

 

A common "fix" in the case of a blown fuse is to replace it with a larger one.  You might see if your radio blows a 7.5A fuse (it presumably blew it once).  If it does, fix the radio instead of working around it.  If not, maybe the guy just didn't have the right fuse on hand.

[65VerdeGS]

1 minute ago, KongaMan said:

If you're going to do that, you might consider using the brown wire to trigger a relay while drawing the buss feed directly from the battery (i.e. run an 8 or 10 ga. wire from the junction block to the relay, bypassing the ignition switch). 

 

Good suggestion KongaMan. I'll look into adding a relay.

 

I suspect I replaced the original 7.5 amp radio fuse with a 10 amp way back in the 80's, soon after I bought the car when I swapped out the stock AM/FM radio to run an aftermarket cassette stereo unit.  About ten years ago I ditched the cassette and put the stock radio back in.  It never worked that great and slowly got worse.

 

Last year I had the stock radio rebuilt by Precision Stereo Repair in Utica, NY.  They did an awesome job for a very reasonable price. They enhanced the sound, and added an iPod jack so I can listen to tunes on my phone, etc.  See; https://www.facebook.com/pg/Precision-Stereo-Repair-169310889752782/services/

 

This post turned into a 'plug' for a stereo repair shop, but thought it was worth recognizing a good vendor!

[jsgun]

On 12/29/2018 at 6:27 PM, KongaMan said:

 

Hmm...  When the ignition switch goes from start to run, isn't the circuit to the starter (and hence, that yellow wire) broken?  If it weren't, you'd be getting 12V to the coil all the time, no?

...

 

 

You're right, I forgot about the switching. That was the original thought, that the coil was getting 12v constant, but it's impossible in stock configuration. It's interesting to see what the cause was.