Morbid Equine Flagellation--Hot Rods (again)

[Dave@Moon]

I know, I know. This subject has been beaten into the dust so often here (mainly by me) that most are sick of hearing about it. However, I was sickened several times today by what I saw and felt it had to be reported.

I went to a local Cincinnati car show that is a fixture of the car scene here. This year the show attracted 2966 registrants, which ran the gamet from pure stock restorations to unstreetable street rods (oxymoron deliberate and appropriate).

The show was a joy! But, out of the 2000-2500 hot rods on display, the ones drawing the largest attention were the most unique. See if these examples don't sound like familiar complaints:

1937 Terraplane Deluxe Coupe, freshly done but (thankfully) not chopped as yet. A near perfect body, would've been an excellent restoration candidate. Viper red paint made the perfect red plastic "carrot" hood ornament nearly invisible.

1934 Graham DeLuxe sedan, chopped. This one has a few miles on it, probably done 5-10 years ago. Still, like the Terraplane it was either a complete car when started or a great deal of effort went into finding NOS pieces to make this rod. As grey, four door street rods go, this was the greyest.

And the piece-de-resistance:

1934 Lincoln KA four door sedan. The extensive display surrounding the car didn't give a coachmaker that I could see, but then again I didn't feel comfortable standing next to this fresh Ford 460 equipped version of a Full Classic for to long. Whoever made the body wouldn't recognize now anyway. Yup,....chopped. How original!

There were a few other notable cars in this large show that I'm sure were hot-rodded to a lower value (financial or otherwise) than they otherwise could've achieved. When you're looking at this many hot rods, there had to have been a few mistakes made. However, in the main they made their mistakes with cars I'll see again in the coming weeks (and not just because I'll be at Hershey).

Hopefully, these guys never knew what they made mistakes with. (Although the Terraplane was stuffed full of original framed ads for the car!) <span style="font-weight: bold">Given some of the trends I've seen in hot-rod publication advertisements of late, however, I'll bet some of them knew [color:\\"red\\"] <span style="font-style: italic">exactly</span> what they were using up to make their rod (because they had to undo all the restorations made by the last guy who had the car). </span>

[1937hd45]

Once again, someone put a car up for sale, someone else bought it with his or her hard earned money and did what they wanted with it. If they in turn deside to sell it BUY IT YOURSELF and make it stock again! NOBODY CARES!

[rocketraider]

And like we keep telling you- Dave, they don't care! All the old car is to them is a piece to be exploited to their own satisfaction and/or profit. History and preservation are of no concern to them.

In addition to my old car disease, I'm also a member of the Civil War Preservation Trust. That group expends much money and time trying to keep short-sighted developers from turning the battlefields into subdivisions. Right now, we're fighting hard to keep an ATV racetrack away from the literal edge of the Manassas Battlefield. The developer has skirted local zoning by listing his planned use as agricultural, but there's sure a lot of flyers advertising his new racetrack floating around. His reply to CWPT? "It's my land and I will do what I damn well please with it".

Where have we heard that before?

[Guest]

I know, I know, I know where your coming from on this issue of stock v/s modified. I had posted earlier about it and feel that pure original is the way to go, BUT, I am having some second thoughts about my "purist" attitude. As I posted earlier, I just bought an old '51 DeSoto Custom Hard-top sportsman. I know this car is rare, but here's the thing: This car's original color is BABY BLUE, PUKE PUKE PUKE PUKE, I would look like that weirdo Stuart Smalley from Saturday Night Live driving this thing around in BABY BLUE with my white tuxedo jacket and plaid pants. This DeSoto has already been painted all black, all the stainless shaved, Cadillac power seats installed, and lowered slightly. It still has it's original drive train that works just fine. I am the first one to be a purist when it comes to a rare automobile, but BABY BLUE? This is a neat car, but I would hate to have to spend all that time re-drilling all the holes for the stainless, painting the car back BABY BLUE, raising it back to stock height, finding some original bench seats, putting them back in and recovering them, and on and on. I personally would not be happy with this car as a big baby blue humpmobile. Maybe whoever buys it from me will put it back stock, I don't plan on chopping it up beyond all hope of putting it back, so that helps me rationalize keeping it modified. SO, I guess I will leave it alone and get a lot more salivations over it as a black lead slead. Not to say I would turn this car INTO a black lead slead if it was already totally original in the first place. I wouldn't have bought this car in the first place if it was a big 'ol baby blue DeSoto, the black lead slead appeal is what made me shell out the dough for it. I guess what I am trying to say it that I would have no problem with buying a modified street rod if it was done right, but only if it wasn't chopped up beyond putting it back original, I don't believe in doing that to any old car unless it is beyond all hope of ever putting it back original in the first place. Remember, somebody else is always going to be the next owner of these old cars as time goes on, we can't take 'em with us no matter how much we want to, unless you are buried in one!

[Brassbus]

Dave@Moon-

I understand that it is part of the Liberal's psyche to turn oneself into an emotional wreck over things that they don't agree with and that their meddling can't change... but, for the sake of your own mental health, and everyone else's right to the pursuit of happiness, maybe you should stop going to Hot Rod shows.

Rocketraider-

Comparing the conversion of a mass produced automobiles into a hot rods with the desecration of Civil War battlefields is ridiculous!

[Dave@Moon]

None of the three cars listed are recoverable. The Terraplane had to have had major frame modifications to accept the...say it with me now...small block chevy. The other two were chopped beyond salvage. (No doubt in a manner that Edsel Ford or Brunn would find rather crude for one of their Lincolns.)

There were <span style="font-style: italic">many</span> other rods on site that had been made out of scarce original iron (1929 Essex Super Six, 1934 Buick, etc. etc. etc.). However these were either quite old as rods go or were missing pieces which indicated that they'd been built from scratch out of old hulks (as most of us think all hot rods are). The point was that these three cars were almost certainly fully restored or complete and easily restorable cars in the very recent past.

I'm beginning to believe that the AACA is starting to serve as a raw materials recovery operation for street rodders. Is your car next?

---------------------------------------

p.s.

There are many more Civil War battlefields in this country than there are Lincoln KA's (though admittedly none as historically significant as Manassas). But who's counting?

[rocketraider]

Brassbus- is it really? You've got two aspects of history that are being chopped up, desecrated, ruined, forgotten and <span style="font-weight: bold">REWRITTEN</span> to comply with what is currently fashionable. Hence, lost to future generations.

I say the comparison is valid , otherwise I wouldn't have made it.

[poci1957]

Dave, I share your concern about this and your "raw materials" remark is spot on. I have watched this abuse steamroll for several years and am worried about it's growth. I wonder, however, if anyone has an idea about how to change this unfortuate trend? WHY would someone decide to street rod rather than properly restore an old car? I think I know several reasons, as likely do you, in fact many of you are probably rodding right now. Is rodding more popular because you aren't judged and critiqued? Is it because you don't have to research things? OR is there a peer group issue that as potential hobbyists go to local shows they see more street rods and are attracted into this more visible group? I am just floating ideas here, any comments? Todd C

[Bill Stoneberg]

Street rods are more popular then restored cars to the people who build and drive them, because you can have all the modern convienences in an older looking car.

You can have A/C, power steering, LOUD radio, and all the other doo dads that we come to expect from cars now. Plus, properly built, they are every bit as dependable as your daily driver.

Money wise, you will get the money you put into a street rod if you build it right, while if you put the same amount of money into a properly restored car, you may be upside down.

This doesn't mean I like them chopping up historiacally signifigant car, but it has been going on for ever and its not going to stop.

Besides, is it better or worse to make a hot rod or let it rust away or be crushed ?

[Brassbus]

Dave@Moon-

As you admitted in your first post, you've already made this point too many times.

Rocketraider-

If you don't understand the difference between sacred ground where thousands of Americans gave their lives, and an old automobile, then there is no point in arguing with you.

[Guest]

yes, Dave. I'll say it with you. 'Small Block Chevy'. Assuming an engine swap, then NO FINER engine could be used at any price!! Even the Packard V8 is distant 2nd runner up behind the SBC. I've even considered the swap in my nearly bone stock and original low mileage 56 Packard recently but didnt do it.

[Guest]

Well, for one thing, I would have to spend a LOT of money to put this old DeSoto back original, WAY more than I would be able to get back out of it, WAY more than I would be willing to go. I think one of the big attractions to customizing an old car is the fact that you can hop in it and go from Florida to California and do it with air condtioning, disk brakes, a RELIABLE updated engine/tranny, not to mention the envious looks of passerby's on the highway, and it's your OWN creation(for most of us anyway). I'm even thinking about changing the motor/tranny/suspension in this old DeSoto(GASP! What did I just say?). I could see restoring a good solid old car with MINOR flaws that need taking care of to 100 percent original condition, but not a car that has already been customized. I wonder if the ones of you who are die-hard purist know that to restore a car TRULY back to ORIGINAL condition, it will have to be 100 percent complete, and have EVERYTHING restored, from every little screw and washer, down to exact copies of the original interior fabric? What is the use in restoring a car back "totally" original if it is not going to be 100 percent correct after you are done, especially if it is going to take YEARS and LOADS of cash? What would you have then anyway: a museum piece or a trailer queen. If you know of any historical grant money that is readily available to restore these old cars with, please let me know, 'cause I just cannot afford it myself. I would love to see all cars restored back original, but I would say that at least 85 percent of us(me included) cannot financially handle a 100 percent CORRECT restoration, not to mention the time investment. Of course I know that some people go ape crazy and spend MANY thousands on chop jobs, but I flat out disagree with doing that to a good, solid old car anyway. I think I have found a middle ground between bone stock and full-custom. I have become such a perfectionist, that I just cannot be satisfied with a half-*ss original restoration, so a nice clean mild-custom job is fine with me, as long as it is still in the shape to be restored back original someday.

[Guest]

How excellent to have seen a hotrodded CLASSIC!, man they can't chop enough of those old beauts in two for my liking. Hmmm...I seem to know of a hidden treasure that would make a good candidate, PH you interested in selling?

[The Old Guy]

I have been working on and driving old cars for 55 years, and am still involved with all aspects of the hobby. I do not have my restored Buicks judged, but a 32 I restored has been to Meadowbrook 3 0r 4 times , and my 40 was invited once. The 40 has also been to the "Eyes on the Classics" by invitation. I have a 37 Buick coupe that is a street rod and I guess I am from the "old school" as I think that Buicks should have Buick engines, Fords need Ford power etc. I looked a long time to find a 37 Coupe that was good street rod material ,and when I found one with no engine,trans or interior, and a floor that looked like lace,that is what I used. I agree with the majority that it is hard to see nice originals turned into street rods, but it is cheaper by far than the route I chose. The facts are that what happens to a car after it is sold, is up to the owner, and in fairness to the street rod fraternity, how many of you have seen a nice original car sitting in a collectors yard rotting into the ground, and been told" I'm going to restore it some day! I would rather see it on the road, no matter what form it is in.

[another old car]

The Old Guy

Joe - I'll have to go with you about seeing old car sitting and rusting ( ROTTING) away ' - your list of cars says alot - I too would take a piece of junk ( in some peoples eyes ) - and breed new life into it - and yes to using the brand of engine of the make of car - Buick in a Buick - Olds in a Olds - Pontiac in a Pontiac -BOP - AACA has its place with cars - But street rodding will keep a few more alive

[R W Burgess]

To "The old guy" and "another old car". I've finally found at least two guys that will appreciate the new "Hotrod Class" next year. It's the historical significance that counts! We're all in this automotive hobby together, to keep the old ones on the road.

Wayne Burgess

56 chevy sedan delivery

65 corvette coupe

35 fordor streetrod

32 ford highboy coupe

[Dave@Moon]

Anything with a '70's Ford truck engine or a 350 crate motor pushing it around isn't "an old one" anymore in my book, and apparently not in the new hot rod class either. The car has to be untouched for the last 25 years (essentially) to qualify. A combination of p!ss yellow and puke green won't matter (gee, I wonder how many of those cars we're going to see at Hershey), but the MSD into Blue Max wires????

These three will be melted down into Hyundai trunk lids before I'm in my grave.

[Dave@Moon]

It's easy to get financially upside down on most cars, especially a DeSoto wagon. Hopefully you're not in it for the money. But even so, in equivalent condition the least that Lincoln could've been worth properly restored was $45K. Getting upside down in that territory is a whole other can of worms.

Now, put a stock Lincoln next to the street rod and wait 25 years. Which one held its value?

I never met anyone who street rodded a rare or valuable car that didn't eventually regret doing it.

[Guest]

It's a 2 door hard-top(basically a convertible with a steel top set down on it, it looks like you could remove it, but you can't), not a wagon. Your right, it's easy to get upside down on a lot of cars. This DeSoto is already customized, and for the money I paid, I couldn't have bought it and customized it for that. I don't know about regretting not painting it back baby blue, I actually will get more out of this car as a black lead sled than a stock baby blue DeSoto that I had to spend MANY thousand on to put back "original". I think money holds a LOT of power in peoples decisions on rodding a car, 'cause your gonna lose your butt in most cases if you drop a wad of cash on an original restoration, depending on what shape the car is in when you start and how much you paid for it.

[rocketraider]

Then don't.

Let me try to reduce this into terms you can understand, since you are obviously missing the point.

A Revolutionary or WBTS battlefield that is encroached upon or actually bought up and developed as a subdivision, mall, amusement park, whatever, to satisfy modern tastes, mores and financial desires- is history that has been altered and can never be put back like it was.

A good original or restored old car that gets chopped up and turned into a street rod with all modern automotive conveniences, to satisfy modern tastes, mores and financial desires- is history that has been altered and can never be put back like it was.

Either way, something of historical significance has been altered from its original state by someone who viewed it solely from a business standpoint without respect to history. There is the comparison. No moral high ground. Simple facts.

The same argument applies to the misguided people who want to rewrite history to make modern man more comfortable with its not-so-pleasant aspects or to modify others' viewpoints to conform with their own. I believe that happened in 1917 Russia, 1933 Germany and 1948 mainland China.

Would this mountain bus project you wish to start be as significant historically if you were to build the body on a modern GM or Ford school bus chassis? If so, call Thomas or Bluebird bus manufacturers, they'll be happy to accommodate you. If not, build it right and use a vintage, unmolested chassis.

I often think that old car owners who upgrade to every modern convenience in their old iron are missing the entire point of having an old car, which is to drive something that was made before the modern conveniences, learn to operate and repair it, live with its quirks, and preserve it. If you only want to travel in a modern car, then go to a new car dealer and buy one.

And by the way- with a lineage that includes ancestors who died at the Elmira and Point Lookout POW camps and the battles of Gettysburg, New Market and Manassas, as well as several who were present at the Surrender, I think I have a very good grasp of what is and is not sacred ground.

[Guest]

Well, I don't know about Civil War battlefields, but I do know about cars. Let's stay focused guys. Take your other arguments elsewhere.

1) Restored cars are important and necessary. I think it's vital to history that we preserve the bulk of old cars as they were, so that younger generations (like me) will learn from them. I am usually quite awed by looking at old cars and how designers who didn't know any better solved problems.

2) I appreciate that street rod types like the look of the old cars but want the modern power, convenience and reliability. The problem is, right now it is very trendy to have a street rod. It gets you in 'the club' with your buddies, and you don't need to have special restoration talents or learn about knee action shocks to build one. This is what is bad. Like most things in this country, people are looking for quick gratification, and building a street rod is much easier (though not necessarily cheaper) than restoring to original. Sloppy body work isn't important if you have a blower under the hood.

3) The hot rod class in AACA isn't the big deal some think. Real hot rods don't resemble the garbage that is being built today with chopped tops and fuel injected Chevy engines.

4) A Chevy engine in anything other than a Chevy basically says, "I'm a cheap bastard, and I built the car with this engine because the parts are cheap."

5) Now, my conundrum: I want to buy a mid 60's Ford pickup to use as a tow vehicle. The models with the 352 V8 have adequate power, and I could live with one stock. There are lots of 6 cylinder trucks out there, and the older ones had rather gutless 292 V8s, neither of which are particularly valuable as collector's items. So the question becomes, do I spend extra money for a stock truck, or do I buy something that has already be 'butchered' because it will fit my needs better? Do I swap a V8 into a 'worthless' 6 cylinder because everyone is restoring V8 trucks? In 100 years, will anyone care?

No easy issue, this.

Dwight V.

Elizabethtown, PA

See you at Hershey!

[Dave@Moon]

RR,

Thank you for rephrasing my thoughts better than I did.

Dwight,

[color:\\"blue\\"] <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I think it's vital to history that we preserve the bulk of old cars as they were, so that younger generations (like me) will learn from them. </div></div> --Great sentiments, however are you aware exactly how far the hobby has slipped from this ideal? I seriously doubt that there is a single category of domestic antique car that fits that crteria today. I'd even wager to say that the '34 KA I found probably ranks among the majority of "refurbished" Full Classics finished in recent years.

[Guest tin_knocker]

Dave, in your subject header did you mean to say Moribund Equine Flagellation?

[Guest]

Dwight: the answer to your #5. is OBVIOUSLY your #4 point!!! Almost self contradictory.

For i AM the man with a BIG V8, better known as PackardV8.

[Guest]

I got your point the first time you made it. It wasn't rocket science(get it? ), it was just a bad comparison. Cars are just cars, plain and simple. With very few exceptions, I don't elevate them to Taj Mahal status. If I was inclined to rod one, I'd start with the shiniest, best restored car that I could afford and save myself a whole lot of work. If I sold one of my restored cars to someone and he rodded it, good for him- that's his business. If disk brakes will improve my chances of survival in my mountain bus when descending a mountain, it will have them so fast your head will spin. Cars were made to be driven, and so far, there is no law protecting them as an endangered species. For those of you who disagree, you can donate your car to the AACA museum- that's why it is being built.

[Brassbus]

Sorry- I got home from Hershey late last night and forgot to log in...that was me above.

[R W Burgess]

Great answer Brassbus! That's the whole point of living in a free country. Being able to do anything to "your" car as long as what you do doesn't make unsafe. Dave@moon would make it illegal to put a cd player in your '57 Chevy. Wayne

[fordee9r (Ron Springstead)]

Hurry! Hurry! Step right up! You too can beat this dead horse!

Hasn't this topic already been run into the ground enough times?

There are old cars for sale out there. Some restored, some restorable and some are junk or rod projects. When those restored or restorable cars are sold, it's the new owner's perogative what he will do with it.

Agreed? Enough said? I hope so!!!

[ex98thdrill]

Don't step in the glue!

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Dave@moon would make it illegal to put a cd player in your '57 Chevy. </div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold"> [color:\\"red\\"] NOT HARDLY! </span>

What Dave@Moon would do is crawl out of our shell and demonstrate to the world that Model A's and Hudsons (to say nothing of V12 Lincolns!) are <span style="font-weight: bold">not</span> immobile white elephants. Show the world that our cars are trailered because we <span style="font-style: italic">want</span> to, not because we <span style="font-style: italic">have</span> to. And to show that monetary value for newly created vehicles fades over time, while monetary value derived from <span style="font-style: italic">historic</span> value doesn't.

Unfortunately that seems to be a minority vue among members of this forum.

Of course instilling some concept of historic value is then necessary. If cd installation in a '57 belly button is the equivalent of street rodding complete/restored Full Classics, there may still be some work needed in that area. ( [color:\\"purple\\"] insert old rolleyes graemlin here)

Anybody here know what "AACA" stands for? Just curious.

[R W Burgess]

Hey Dave! You start with the cheap stuff first, then work on up to the big blocks and blowers! W. Reference- ex98thdrill- e-mail me please! W.

[fordee9r (Ron Springstead)]

Hey Dave,

Yes I do know what AACA stands for and that is the point behind my previous post. Most of us here on the AACA Forum do know the value of preserving automotive history and wouldn't dream of hacking up a restored or restorable car to create a rod. At the same time, I'm sure that serious rodders are always looking for something unique. Why make another Deuce Coupe or blown '57 Chevy when you can be the only guy around with a LaSalle, Franklin or some other rare make with a big block in it? Surely both that car and its owner would garner a lot of attention.

My point is that continuing to bring this topic up here on the AACA Forum will not do much for your concern about great old cars being chopped up into rods. Perhaps your crusade would reap more rewards on one of the hot rod sites. Wouldn't it make more sense to try and educate the offenders than to preach to us who share your ideas?

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Wouldn't it make more sense to try and educate the offenders than to preach to us who share your ideas? </div></div>

Sorry Ron, but I think the more appropriate group to educate <span style="font-style: italic">are</span> those of us who are offended. It is seriously over-simplifying my position to characterize it as anti-hot-rod, yet dfer after dfer continue to react to these posts as if I'm railing against every '32 deuce coupe in <span style="font-style: italic">Popular Hot Rodding</span>.

I believe that most antique car owners continue to view the hot rod hobby as no different than it was 10 or 20 years ago. <span style="font-weight: bold">That is in no way true!</span> I've known many hot rodders in my life, hundreds. Until very recently I never came accross any who'd seriously consider modifying an HPOF or already restored antique of any type. Now we have guys cutting up $20-50K cars to make street rods on a regular basis.

Now, the question that has to be asked is what is different between then and now. Why have our cars been so devalued in the eyes of people outside our circle?

<span style="font-style: italic">That</span> question gets to heart of my concerns for the hobby. It is the key to understanding what is really going on out there.

And <span style="font-style: italic">that</span> is why this forum is <span style="font-style: italic">THE</span> audience appropriate for this information.

[Guest]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> It is seriously over-simplifying my position to characterize it as anti-hot-rod, yet dfer after dfer continue to react to these posts as if I'm railing against every '32 deuce coupe in Popular Hot Rodding.

</div></div>

So, Dave, what exactly <span style="font-style: italic">are</span> you railing against?

[Dave@Moon]

Did you read the next 6 sentences?

[Brassbus]

"Now, the question that has to be asked is what is different between then and now. Why have our cars been so devalued in the eyes of people outside our circle?"

-------------------------------------------------------------

I don't think the cars <span style="font-style: italic">are</span> devalued by the people you consider outside our circle...If anything, they are becoming more and more valued every day. What is different now? Simple. <span style="font-weight: bold">Time and money</span> . (1) Time is more valued now, and people are less willing to waste it on things that can be done better and more quickly by someone else. Rodding a car that has been restored already is a lot less work, and just makes more sense. (2) The people who are building rods these days are middle aged guys with lots of disposable income. They can afford to buy a restored car to build the hot rod that they wanted since High School. Is this a great country, or what!

[1937hd45]

Brassbus, You have correctly answered the question, thank you! Time is money, starting with a good car will get you on the road a lot quicker. There should be a very good supply of cast off original running gear for future restorations as well.

[Guest]

Yes. I was just trying to figure out <span style="font-style: italic">exactly</span> which aspects that you have a problem with. Are there certain rods that you don't have a problem with, or <span style="font-style: italic"> do </span> you include all of the '32 deuce coupes in Popular Hot Rodding in your quarrel? I mean, yeah it stinks that great old cars are being cut up, but what do you propose can be done about it? Not much, since we live in a free country. I suppose if you have enough money, you could buy up all of the cars you consider sacred and hord them away from the rodders, but I guarantee that you WILL NOT take them with you in the afterlife, somebody else is eventually going to own them and sooner or later some or all will get modified or chopped. You must understand that the combination of the allure of a slick, tricked out street rod and lots of money equals more and more rods being created. It's just a fact, and I just don't think there is alot we can do about it. Question: Would you compare the chopping of a historically significant old car into a street rod to just plain out crushing it into scrap? Is there any difference in your mind between the two(rodding it or crushing it)?

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Question: Would you compare the chopping of a historically significant old car into a street rod to just plain out crushing it into scrap? Is there any difference in your mind between the two(rodding it or crushing it)?

</div></div>

As I've pointed out many times, both roads lead to the same destination. Once old rods become obsolete (they do make begger and better small blocks and custom steering wheels every year!), they're junk. A 15+ year old rod is worthless beyond it's original owner/maker (unless that person is a notable rod builder, there's that pesky historic signifigance again).

What difference is it if your rare Studebaker is melted into 2003 or 2020 Hyundai trunk lids? Eventually, it's gone.

[1937hd45]

Dave, Have you, or anyone reading this forum ever seen a hot rod scrapped? If so when? Rodding has saved far more hopeless (1928-48) cars than the restorers have.