Ronnie Posted December 19, 2018 Share Posted December 19, 2018 1 minute ago, Brooklyn Beer said: Well I think I what is a problem after investing the coil in the car looking to see what it is. Some oil seepage you would not see unless it was out of the car or you ran your hands around it . Say again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted December 19, 2018 Author Share Posted December 19, 2018 20 minutes ago, Ronnie said: Say again. Had a computer hiccup when posting I meant to say Yep, 6 volt coil in BIG letters and numbers. Some oil seepage you would not see unless it was out of the car or you ran your hands around it as well . Don't see a bypass around the ballast resistor going to the coil for the voltage drop during cranking. Wonder how much voltage was leaving that 6 volt coil. What does 12 volts going into it cause it to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted December 19, 2018 Share Posted December 19, 2018 Maybe your coil is the problem if it's leaking. Since your car has been changed to 12 volts I thought you might could have a 12 volt coil that needed a bypass circuit for the ballast resistor when you were starting the car. I don't really know since your car seems to be a mixture of 6 and 12 volt parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted December 19, 2018 Author Share Posted December 19, 2018 1 minute ago, Ronnie said: Maybe your coil is the problem if it's leaking. Since your car has been changed to 12 volts I thought you might could have a 12 volt coil that needed a bypass circuit for the ballast resistor when you were starting the car. I don't really know since your car seems to be a mixture of 6 and 12 volt parts. I don't know what happens when you run 12 volts into a 6 volt coil but would suspect problems for sure. From what I read the bypass is just a simple lead off the starter S switch to the leaving side of the ballast resistor or directly to the coil correct? Just a limited shot of full voltage during start up that isn't needed once running and is done away with when starter is no longer engaged. So will get a new coil tomorrow and go from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted December 19, 2018 Share Posted December 19, 2018 The bypass circuit actually increases the voltage to 12 volts going to the coil when the engine is cranking and then the voltage drops to 6 volts through the ballast resistor when the engine is running. Read paragraph (2) in '57 Buick Ignition Description I posted earlier carefully. It explains in detail how the ballast bypass circuit works. I doubt your car had a bypass circuit with the 6 volt system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted December 19, 2018 Author Share Posted December 19, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Ronnie said: The bypass circuit actually increases the voltage to 12 volts going to the coil when the engine is cranking and then the voltage drops to 6 volts through the ballast resistor when the engine is running. Read paragraph (2) in '57 Buick Ignition Description I posted earlier carefully. It explains in detail how the ballast bypass circuit works. I doubt your car had a bypass circuit with the 6 volt system. Yes, I don't see it ever had one but should I add one now? I don't have a separate contact as described to go off to make a bypass. Would not a lead from the S switch work in the same manner? The bypass would only get power if the starter were to be engaged. Edited December 19, 2018 by Brooklyn Beer (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted December 19, 2018 Share Posted December 19, 2018 7 minutes ago, Brooklyn Beer said: Would not a lead from the S switch work in the same manner? The bypass would only get power if the starter were to be engaged. I assume you mean after you have installed the push button for the starter? If so I think that would work as a bypass but I'm not sure if you should feed the 6 volt coil like came on your car with 12 volts for starting or not since it says "No resistor required." If you are going to use a bypass circuit maybe a coil for a '57 Buick would be more appropriate?? I just don't know. Maybe someone who has converted from 6 to 12 volts will know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted December 19, 2018 Author Share Posted December 19, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Ronnie said: I assume you mean after you have installed the push button for the starter? If so I think that would work as a bypass but I'm not sure if you should feed the 6 volt coil like came on your car with 12 volts for starting or not since it says "No resistor required." If you are going to use a bypass circuit maybe a coil for a '57 Buick would be more appropriate?? I just don't know. Maybe someone who has converted from 6 to 12 volts will know. I am going to install a 12 volt coil unless this will fry the internals of the distributor. But I did come across this in my research and maybe someone can tell me if correct " NEXT some coils are labeled "12 volts for use with an external ballast resistor" and if so they are in reality a 6 volts coil in which case an external voltage dropping (12 to 6) ballast resistor is required or else the coil overheats and the points burn up quickly. A true full 12 volt rated coil (some call internally ballasted) is labeled 12 volts or else 12 volts NO ballast required,,," Edited December 19, 2018 by Brooklyn Beer (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted December 19, 2018 Share Posted December 19, 2018 I think I would replace the condenser to rule it out as the problem. They can cause all kinds of weird problems when they are bad. I wouldn't think a 12 volt coil would damage the points since voltage will drop to 6 volts when the engine is running. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted December 19, 2018 Share Posted December 19, 2018 SIMPLIFY!! I changed to 12V. I installed a 12V, no resistor needed coil. No problems in 15,000+ miles. Ben 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted December 19, 2018 Share Posted December 19, 2018 4 minutes ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said: SIMPLIFY!! I changed to 12V. I installed a 12V, no resistor needed coil. No problems in 15,000+ miles. Ben There you go. There's just no substitute for experience! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted December 19, 2018 Author Share Posted December 19, 2018 OK. I will look at one tomorrow. I guess then we just spice in a jumper of what was the ballast in and out with just a lead to the coil correct ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted December 19, 2018 Author Share Posted December 19, 2018 So if I understanding this correctly. Getting a "no resistor needed" coil (internally resisted) means no bypass would be needed to get 12 volts to the coil ? I am game for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted December 19, 2018 Share Posted December 19, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, Brooklyn Beer said: So if I understanding this correctly. Getting a "no resistor needed" coil (internally resisted) means no bypass would be needed to get 12 volts to the coil ? I am game for this. If your starter has a terminal for a bypass, why not use one? It is a technically superior system because it can maintain a hot spark while cranking, even if the battery is a little low. The possibility of a bypass is really the only practical advantage of a 12v system over 6v. Generally speaking you cant have a bypass on 6V because there are no suitable coils available. Hookup is simple. Assuming a negative ground car, 1) ignition switch >> ballast resistor >> (+) terminal on coil 2) starter bypass terminal on starter or solenoid >> (+) terminal on coil 3) (-) terminal on coil >> distributor (points and condenser) If you have no starter bypass terminal, or just choose to run without, the Bosch "Blue Coil" works very well in 12v systems that do not have a bypass. Ask at a parts store that caters to Volkswagens. Edited December 19, 2018 by Bloo (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted December 19, 2018 Author Share Posted December 19, 2018 anyone familiar with this ? WVE/AIRTEX/WELLS 1A4133 {#ICC150} Info Delco Distributor, Lobe Sensor Module, Mechanical Advance Under Breaker Plate, 8 contact Cam; 12 Volt Negative Ground $124.79 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted December 19, 2018 Share Posted December 19, 2018 Looks like a pertronix knock off. Can't comment on the quality but it should do the same as a pertronix. If your system isn't 100% bulletproof (aka stable, constant correct voltage), the module may fry. It's best to iron out a points based ignition system first then try the electronic ignition. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted December 19, 2018 Share Posted December 19, 2018 Brooklyn, where are you located? Beemon is correct, lets get this sorted before changing things. Assuming YOU are doing the work. Just checked and all parts stores have the 12 volt internal resisted coils in stock. Probably farm implement stores as well. Prices from $20 to $40. On line stores a little cheaper. Bloo did a pretty good description, but I want you to do it this way, TAKING OUT OF SERVICE ANY "old" WIRING! Unhook both wires at the carburetor switch at the carburetor. With a test light in hand, turn the ignition switch on. Check the wires. One should light up the test light, one should not. Tape off the end of the one that does not. TURN THE IGNITION SWITCH OFF until the rest of the wiring is complete. Go to a parts store and ask for a coil that is internal resisted, 12 volt. Ask for a push button switch. Connect the hot wire, the one that lit the test light, to one terminal of the push button. From the same terminal, connect a wire to the + terminal of the new coil. Tape of the current wire going to the + terminal. Connect the distributor wire that was connected to the - terminal of the old coil to the - on the new coil. Connect a wire from the other terminal of the push button to the s terminal on the starter. Go ahead and remove both connections at the present ballast resistor and tape them. All of this can be done temporally beneath the hood, being careful to keep any wire away from the hot manifold and the cooling fan. Now start the car! Let us know. Ben 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted December 20, 2018 Author Share Posted December 20, 2018 (edited) 15 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said: Brooklyn, where are you located? Beemon is correct, lets get this sorted before changing things. Assuming YOU are doing the work. Just checked and all parts stores have the 12 volt internal resisted coils in stock. Probably farm implement stores as well. Prices from $20 to $40. On line stores a little cheaper. Bloo did a pretty good description, but I want you to do it this way, TAKING OUT OF SERVICE ANY "old" WIRING! Unhook both wires at the carburetor switch at the carburetor. With a test light in hand, turn the ignition switch on. Check the wires. One should light up the test light, one should not. Tape off the end of the one that does not. TURN THE IGNITION SWITCH OFF until the rest of the wiring is complete. Go to a parts store and ask for a coil that is internal resisted, 12 volt. Ask for a push button switch. Connect the hot wire, the one that lit the test light, to one terminal of the push button. From the same terminal, connect a wire to the + terminal of the new coil. Tape of the current wire going to the + terminal. Connect the distributor wire that was connected to the - terminal of the old coil to the - on the new coil. Connect a wire from the other terminal of the push button to the s terminal on the starter. Go ahead and remove both connections at the present ballast resistor and tape them. All of this can be done temporally beneath the hood, being careful to keep any wire away from the hot manifold and the cooling fan. Now start the car! Let us know. Ben Got it. Won't be able to get back to it until maybe friday evening with the holiday rush schedule at work. I live about 25 miles NW of Fort Worth in the middle of nothing. Edited December 20, 2018 by Brooklyn Beer (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 2 minutes ago, Brooklyn Beer said: Got it. Won't be able to get back to it until maybe friday evening with the holiday rush schedule at work. I live about 25 miles NW of Fort Worth in the middle of nothing. Middle of nothing? never heard of that town!. I am about 100 north of you, then. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted December 20, 2018 Author Share Posted December 20, 2018 Middle of nothing is just up the road from halfway from nothing. We have more cows in population then people. About 6 miles from Springtown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 11 hours ago, Brooklyn Beer said: Middle of nothing is just up the road from halfway from nothing. We have more cows in population then people. About 6 miles from Springtown. Here in Tennessee we would say that you live way out in the sticks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted December 21, 2018 Author Share Posted December 21, 2018 8 hours ago, Ronnie said: Here in Tennessee we would say that you live way out in the sticks. Out my back door is where the Goodnight-Loving trail used to run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 1 hour ago, Brooklyn Beer said: Out my back door is where the Goodnight-Loving trail used to run. Ghost riders in the night! You are less than 2 hours away. May have to visit and get you on the straight and narrow. Ben 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted December 22, 2018 Author Share Posted December 22, 2018 OK. Ran test lead from hot side of carb switch, through test switch, and down to test lead onto S switch and starter. After a few tries it coughed, sputtered and fired up (if hesitantly Waited a minute and did same and it fired up on 2nd turn. It "idled" for about 10 seconds and quit. Rough and stumbling. Waited a minute and cranked again,.. and again fired on second turn and "idled" for over a minute before I shut it off as it was not clearing up. We are at the spot of where it was before the starter died. Exactly the same rough idle and it will not take any fuel in any way above this very rough idle. You give it a little throttle it wants to stall. But it does start nicely again. Going to go out and pull a plug to see if it is fouled again from getting it started. Plugs are new. Coil is new. Cap and rotor look clean and good and relatively new. Wires look new and clean. I had checked points and they are clean. Condenser looks fresh like everything else under the cap. Removed the ballast resistor when I installed 12 volt internally resisted coil. So really stumbling idle and won't take any throttle without wanting to stall. It was running rich at start up when I got the car and at idle from cold start would produce soot like nobodies business to the point the floor is stained black from the tail pipe. After warm up it would stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 But the starter. Did it keep running as before? Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted December 22, 2018 Author Share Posted December 22, 2018 nope. Starter functions fine. The car is is at the point where it was before the starter issue arose. Rough idle, stumbling and barely idles, fouling plugs, won't take any throttle as it wants to stall and miss. I do have a spare condenser but the other one looks almost new. I was driving along, it started to miss and stumble, getting worse as I nursed it home the last 1/2 mile and now am at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pont35cpe Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 (edited) All that soot, sounds like the carburetor needs attention/rebuilt..flooding. Edited December 22, 2018 by pont35cpe (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted December 22, 2018 Author Share Posted December 22, 2018 It was running fine then started stumbling and breaking up. Thinking the same thing. But at least we got it started. That is a victory in itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted December 22, 2018 Author Share Posted December 22, 2018 Curious as if anyone has put a 2 barrel aftermarket fuel injection on an older motor like this before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 I would change the condenser. Make sure you install one made for use with a 12 volt system. The condition of the outside has nothing to do with the condition of the condenser electrically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 Keep looking at the the ignition. Sudden performance issue are almost always ignition related, while slowly developing issues might be fuel system related. About the only carb problem that might be sudden is the float or float valve which might either be starvation from no fuel or flooding which in this case would be lots of fuel spilling inside and outside the carb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 4 hours ago, Brooklyn Beer said: Curious as if anyone has put a 2 barrel aftermarket fuel injection on an older motor like this before. Yes! Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted December 22, 2018 Author Share Posted December 22, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, old-tank said: Keep looking at the the ignition. Sudden performance issue are almost always ignition related, while slowly developing issues might be fuel system related. About the only carb problem that might be sudden is the float or float valve which might either be starvation from no fuel or flooding which in this case would be lots of fuel spilling inside and outside the carb. Before I pull the carb off tomorrow for rebuild I am going to change the condenser and check the points one last time. It will start nicely now but won't idle except in a rough manner and wants to stall with added throttle. Just crack it off idle and it bogs down. (If you can call it an idle) Throwing brownish black soot and very rich at start up, fouling plugs. If the condenser doesn't sort it out I don't know where to look besides the carb. It is firing and starting very easy now like it did. Just running terrible and the carb looks to have seen better days honestly. I tightened every screw and such I could find. Can see where there was some seepage at some time. And while i thinking about it, best way to remove throttle linkage without screwing it up? Edited December 22, 2018 by Brooklyn Beer added info (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 While it maybe a carb issue, listen to old-tank's advice, systematically go through the ignition system. Only 80% of tune issues are electrical. What is the timing set to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pont35cpe Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 (edited) The hesitation/bog when cracking the throttle make me think: power valve or accelerator pump in the carb., not working, and possibly a bad vacuum advance. By your description of the carb, it`s probably due a freshing-up. Edited December 23, 2018 by pont35cpe (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 20 minutes ago, Brooklyn Beer said: If the condenser doesn't sort it out I don't know where to look Here are a few things to check in the distributor. Look closely at how the condenser is connected. I don't know about your distributor but some of the older ones had insulating washers where the condenser connects to keep it from going to ground. When properly connected the condenser body should be grounded but the wire should to the points. if the condenser wire gets connected in a way that the wire goes to ground the condenser is rendered useless. Also the advance plate the points and condenser are mounted on must be have a good ground. Many old distributors have a ground strap (wire) installed between the advance plate and the body of the distributor to insure the advance plate has a good ground. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted December 23, 2018 Author Share Posted December 23, 2018 27 minutes ago, maok said: While it maybe a carb issue, listen to old-tank's advice, systematically go through the ignition system. Only 80% of tune issues are electrical. What is the timing set to? I have absolutely no idea what the timing is but it has not been changed since it was running fine. I am 3-4 weeks new now to working on this car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 16 minutes ago, Ronnie said: Many old distributors have a ground strap (wire) installed between the advance plate and the body of the distributor to insure the advance plate has a good ground. And that is, more often than not, a special wire made to take the constant bending that happens when the vacuum advance moves the breaker plate. Make sure it is intact. If it is broken, theres gonna be trouble. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted December 23, 2018 Author Share Posted December 23, 2018 Some carb pics. I do know this car sat with minimal use for 2 years and no use for 5 months before I bought it. Wonder if fresh gas broke something up. Have seen worse carbs then this one but don't know the history of this cars use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted December 23, 2018 Author Share Posted December 23, 2018 3 minutes ago, Bloo said: And that is, more often than not, a special wire made to take the constant bending that happens when the vacuum advance moves the breaker plate. Make sure it is intact. If it is broken, theres gonna be trouble. Anyone have a picture of what I am looking for ? This missing issue wasn't instantly BAD but it came on quickly and started building worse and worse (15 minutes of driving) till now it won't function above an terrible idle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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