1911 - 1927 Locomobile 48 & 38 Gathering Place

[alsfarms]

I am familiar with "Budd" wheels on Nash, Studebaker and others, but did not know about a partnership or business agreement between Michelin and Budd.  Could someone educate this group on that subject.  Maybe "Locomobile in the News" could be a good place to post a newspaper clip on that subject.

Al

[George K]

General Pershing had a special model built that are known as Pershing Locomobiles. There several other models of Locomobiles used by the US military and drove Pershing in. Not all Locomobiles Pershing rode in were his special order cars. Pershing  rode in Locomobiles that are not special.

[George K]

18 minutes ago, alsfarms said:

I am familiar with "Budd" wheels on Nash, Studebaker and others, but did not know about a partnership or business agreement between Michelin and Budd.  Could someone educate this group on that subject.  Maybe "Locomobile in the News" could be a good place to post a newspaper clip on that subject.

Al

Whatever Al. Michelin invention produced under license by Budd.

[George K]

1 hour ago, GARRET MCFANN said:

Hello Al

 As of yet, I have found no " before" pictures. This is unfortunate as several people have asked this question. I do have some pictures of the on- going restoration though.

 

This already posted photo is the US government sign in front of one of the Pershing Locomobiles still in government hands.

[George K]

[alsfarms]

Thanks for this posted information.  That certainly does give clarity to the Budd wheel story.  The Budd wheel is not only strong but is good looking also.

Al

[GARRET MCFANN]

On 9/5/2022 at 12:15 PM, George K said:

On 9/5/2022 at 10:32 AM, GARRET MCFANN said:

Hello George K

Thank you for the photo reference. I have a local copy of a newspaper article from April 17, 1985 about Oakley Arnold Sumpter Sr, who restored the interior of the 1917 Locomobile  at the Aberdeen Ordnance Museum. This article states, “The military bought 12 Locomobiles to use as staff cars. However only one other had the split windshield like the one here.”

 

Fun facts, from this article:

The 1917 cost of this Locomobile in the US was

$ 8,200. The cost of delivery to France was $9,130

In comparison, the Cadillac of the time cost $3,300.

In 1967 the late curator and founder of the Ordnance Museum estimated that the vehicle was worth $250,00

 

 

 

 

[George K]

GARRET MCFANN  This must be your fathers car. I saw a great Pershing Loco in a private museum. There are two split windshield in the photo.

[prewarnut]

From the New York papers, I finally found the original to the flat windscreen photo which is on the web (at least what was run... maybe on the AP), and here's a second with another split windscreen car.

 

[prewarnut]

   We have yet a third car which is apparently a town car. George may be correct that J.J.P. had a few requisitoned for use on duty...there's also the ex-Larz Anderson Sportif so 4 types of Locomobile total.

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by prewarnut (see edit history)

[George K]

On 9/5/2022 at 6:54 PM, George K said:

A couple more just cause.

[George K]

53 minutes ago, prewarnut said:

   We have yet a third car which is apparently a town car. George may be correct that J.J.P. had a few requisitoned for use on duty...there's also the ex-Larz Anderson Sportif so 4 types of Locomobile total.

 

This is the 1919 Auto show car

[George K]

Maybe a better photo.

[George K]

Same show I think.

[prewarnut]

   Interesting! Somewhat of a hybrid mix of the previously represented styles, here as a town car but with the steel wheels (dual at rear) and straight fenders and no v-windshield on it. Here's a Nov. 1935 article that describes what happened to it, lest someone thinks they have the original:

 

[George K]

Cecil De Mille in his custom body Locomobile.

[George K]

3 hours ago, prewarnut said:

   Interesting! Somewhat of a hybrid mix of the previously represented styles, here as a town car but with the steel wheels (dual at rear) and straight fenders and no v-windshield on it. Here's a Nov. 1935 article that describes what happened to it, lest someone thinks they have the original:

 

The 1919 show car has a split windshield as stated in the text. Looks like a flat but notice the upper short windshield that opens as seen in previous photos. The angle of the photo doesn’t show how wide the car is.

[George K]

This article was sent to me by a friend and Locomobile expert. He knew Oakley Arnold Sumpter Sr.very well.

 

[GARRET MCFANN]

22 hours ago, George K said:

GARRET MCFANN  This must be your fathers car. I saw a great Pershing Loco in a private museum. There are two split windshield in the photo.plll

Interesting….

I have two registration cards for the Locomobile; a 1932 and a 1929. It was registered in Oakland California at that time. The owner was an A. F. Cornwall. My father purchased it from a C.M. Palmer in 1967, who had a Livermore Ca. address. Neither place is not too far from Gilroy, as the crow flies.

Edited September 7, 2022 by GARRET MCFANN (see edit history)

[George K]

This is the Pershing Locomobile I believe I saw in a private museum. It has two added license plate brackets. One for the United States of America 🇺🇸 and four Star General plates. Does you car have these brackets?

[prewarnut]

   I know we have multiple conversations going on so I apologize....Two things: 1) It is interesting the above two V-shaped windshield limos have dual rear tires but I can see they are wire wheels. As the rear spokes are canted out it seems to suggest to me a single large rim whereby two tires could be mounted. Does anyone understand this configuration better?  2) George, on the limos they are all split windshields which open with a horizontal seam between two glasses. But (I'll state this in a form of a question, Alex) aren't we still seeing two designs: one with a flat windscreen and one with center post forming a V-shape? (e.g. 2 panes and 4 panes). I feel the 1919 show car is flat with 2 panes regardless of the angle. Am I wrong?

[George K]

27 minutes ago, prewarnut said:

   I know we have multiple conversations going on so I apologize....Two things: 1) It is interesting the above two V-shaped windshield limos have dual rear tires but I can see they are wire wheels. As the rear spokes are canted out it seems to suggest to me a single large rim whereby two tires could be mounted. Does anyone understand this configuration better?  2) George, on the limos they are all split windshields which open with a horizontal seam between two glasses. But (I'll state this in a form of a question, Alex) aren't we still seeing two designs: one with a flat windscreen and one with center post forming a V-shape? (e.g. 2 panes and 4 panes). I feel the 1919 show car is flat with 2 panes regardless of the angle. Am I wrong?

This is the description of the 1919 show car. I believe the angle of the photo deceives you into thinking the center divider is the off side windshield post.

[George K]

1 hour ago, prewarnut said:

   I know we have multiple conversations going on so I apologize....Two things: 1) It is interesting the above two V-shaped windshield limos have dual rear tires but I can see they are wire wheels. As the rear spokes are canted out it seems to suggest to me a single large rim whereby two tires could be mounted. Does anyone understand this configuration better?  2) George, on the limos they are all split windshields which open with a horizontal seam between two glasses. But (I'll state this in a form of a question, Alex) aren't we still seeing two designs: one with a flat windscreen and one with center post forming a V-shape? (e.g. 2 panes and 4 panes). I feel the 1919 show car is flat with 2 panes regardless of the angle. Am I wrong?

Quote

 

[George K]

I have not seen a flat fender flat windshield car. Flat windshield normal stock fenders. Speaking about Locomobile in France WW1. 

[George K]

My above statement is not true as I found a photo that Pershing posed for on request of a woman photographer. Appears to be flat fenders.

[George K]

Thought this was serendipitous. Poor quality but I hope legible.

[prewarnut]

   The general has an interesting stance. He tends to lean in some of his photos. The one with his signature still makes me wonder if we are seeing a non v-shaped windscreen - it is just so difficult to make out. I won't argue it as the picture isn't good enough to contradict. I think on the upright car with the rounded fenders and the U.S. Army numbers on the rear door, that appears to be a conventional windscreen. With one of the captions mentioning President Wilson used a Locomobile I tried to find a photo/press release but to no avail. Perhaps given his stroke, similar to FDRs handicap he probably was more discreet in appearances at the time.

[alsfarms]

I am not well versed with this conversation regarding the "Pershing" military Locomobiles.  Is any information available about how many other automobile makes were in the mix being tested for potential purchase on the WW1 military contract.  To what extent did Pershing, himself, have the ability to request Locomobiles to be his staff cars.  Did Pershing leave much in the way or written words about his assigned Locomobile service cars.  Did Pershing ever own a Locomobile?

Al

Edited September 8, 2022 by alsfarms
Clarity (see edit history)

[George K]

1 hour ago, alsfarms said:

I am not well versed with this conversation regarding the "Pershing" military Locomobiles.  Is I formation available about how many other automobile makes were in the mix for the WW1 military contract.  To what extent did Pershing, himself, have the ability to request Locomobiles to be his staff cars.  Did Pershing leave much in the way or written words about his Locomobile service cars.  Did Pershing ever own a Locomobile?

Al

 

1 hour ago, alsfarms said:

I am not well versed with this conversation regarding the "Pershing" military Locomobiles.  Is I formation available about how many other automobile makes were in the mix for the WW1 military contract.  To what extent did Pershing, himself, have the ability to request Locomobiles to be his staff cars.  Did Pershing leave much in the way or written words about his Locomobile service cars.  Did Pershing ever own a Locomobile?

Al

Al, You have mentioned that the Bridgeport library has been very helpful. They list in the summary of boxes of Locomobile records all the US government 1919 purchase orders. Specifically Box 6 item #35&36. Box7 #’s 1-6 are all purchase orders. Perhaps you could get them to digitized them for viewing.Just a thought and certainly would help GARRET MCFANN solidify the history of his car as his serial number is a 1919 # but unusual series#.

[George K]

On 9/7/2022 at 4:36 AM, prewarnut said:

   Interesting! Somewhat of a hybrid mix of the previously represented styles, here as a town car but with the steel wheels (dual at rear) and straight fenders and no v-windshield on it. Here's a Nov. 1935 article that describes what happened to it, lest someone thinks they have the original:

 

Al what does it say about Pershing owning a Locomobile. Cecil De Mille purchased it from Pershing for $16,000. In 1920.

[alsfarms]

I have read, closely, the above shown newspaper clipping.  It suggests that Pershing used the Locomobile as a Staff car with hints that the US Government ordered, purchased and paid for the Locomobile Staff cars.  Then the article suggests that DeMille purchased Pershing's Locomobile staff car from Pershing himself.  It appears that something tricky took place, I just don't know what!  Actually, you suggest a very good idea from a historical stand point and that is to encourage the Historical Wing of the Bridgeport Public Library, to digitize the information you pointed out.

Al

[Reo M]

I would note for consideration that General Pershing was highly regarded and highly respected. However, there is no way for even a 4 star General to come close to affording a locomobile.

I would find it extremely unlikely that anything untoward occurred. I would expect some civic organization purchased the car and then gave it to him as a gift for services rendered to the country.

One can find other examples of gifts to him such as a horse (he was a calvary officer).

James

[prewarnut]

   Property of the government is property of the government, but people in high positions have a way of getting things donated to them as gifts or potentially bought when former use is no longer needed. I think with Pershing there seems to be multiple vehicles involved. This leads me to wonder what the provenance of the auctioned Sportif is/was as all the other vehicles are enclosed cars. It may be known (but I just don't know it). I agree getting to Bridgeport and looking in the boxes and getting serial numbers may be helpful. Also, while l like posting contemporary press articles as they can help establish some data points, as they say, "you can't believe everything written in the press."

[prewarnut]

...not to go too far astray. We know Pershing used a Cadillac. Also Dodges were famously used as staff cars. Here's an interesting article from the Washington Times 7/15/17:

 

[alsfarms]

I am going to know a whole lot more about the Locomobile service during WW1 and this is interesting.

Al

[George K]

Interesting passage from the Official U.S. Bulletin with lists all purchase orders for the military. Sadly it also lists General Pershing’s reported casualties which take many pages. Many have given their lives for freedom.

[George K]

On a lighter note the Locomobile pictured in the Budd wheel ad from 1950 shows a US # 15019.That # is not in the Locomobile serial number list but is in the correct numerical sequence. I think that’s a 5 or is it a 3?

[prewarnut]

Now this is interesting. Wonder if they sold any....

[George K]

2 minutes ago, prewarnut said:

Now this is interesting. Wonder if they sold any....

Who knows as it was in the Hare’s 1-1/2 year financial debacle. Great tag line “We shall Keep Faith”

[George K]

This the Locomobile prewarnut intended to buy. Pershing would of had several automobiles at his beck and call. It’s the military and they use every machine known to man. Here is the Bonhams description of this car.