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1911 - 1927 Locomobile 48 & 38 Gathering Place


alsfarms

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I have a couple of observations regarding this Locomobile sedan.  Am I correct that this unit does not have a divider window?  If that be the case, this unit was likely sold as an owner driven automobile and not chauffeur driven, making it a more true family sedan.   I don't see jump seats so this would be a five passenger sedan.  I am familiar with two terminologies for this body design, close coupled sedan, and town sedan.  I have heard another loose terminology being a blind quarter or four window sedan.  The front view shows a bit of a clumsy windshield installation to me.  The windshield looks like it should be larger than what it now has.  That is my opinion.

Al

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Does that same description fit for a town sedan or close coupled sedan.  I realize that what a body is called is rather wild because different body builders may have a different terminology for the same body type.  I don't think SAE standards apply......

Al

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I believe this is what is called a close coupled. The term close coupled, according to google, pertains to a car body in which the front seat section and rear seat section are coupled close together. The term would mainly apply to custom bodies where there would be jump seats in the rear body section normally. The term close coupled identifies no room for jump seats. Of course, if the car were a Ford or Chevy, it would be called a four door sedan or five passenger coupe or any number of other terms.

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9 hours ago, alsancle said:

That Schutte  bodied car is really cool!!!!


I looked that car over for a member her twenty years ago. Interesting story to tell you over Crown Royal at Pebble. 

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10 minutes ago, alsfarms said:

Sounds like this must be a fascinating story to hold for Pebble and liquid coolant! 


It was a Twilight Zone moment in my life……one of the few. Surreal is the accurate adjective.

 

It’s an unusual car……looks much better in pictures than in person. The lines are awkward. It feels frumpy, and poorly executed. I was not impressed  with the quality of the body. 

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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From the front, in my thinking, the windshield is out of porportion with the rest of the body.  The good or mostly good, I like the lower body lines and the blind quarter panels.  I am not sure how this body would be helped or hurt with dual rear spares.

Al

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14 hours ago, edinmass said:


It was a Twilight Zone moment in my life……one of the few. Surreal is the accurate adjective.

 

It’s an unusual car……looks much better in pictures than in person. The lines are awkward. It feels frumpy, and poorly executed. I was not impressed  with the quality of the body. 

I agree with Ed on the frumpy styling and mediocre body quality.  That plus the paint job that looked brushed on is probably why I didn't buy it 15 years ago.  According to the long time mechanic for this Northern California collection, the Schutte sedan was acquired from long time California collector Cebert Holmes.  

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Cebert is correct. He also had a big Marmon. Interesting guy. He was 10,000 years old when I visited him. My friend got the Cunningham Speedster from the New York Auto show from him. He also had a McFarlin. He was asking 45 for the car when I looked at it.

 

 

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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Where did Cebert Holmes reside?  Here is a hypothetical question regarding this Schutte bodied Locomobile.  Is it felt that this is a body built in 1925 by Schutte or was it a body modified by Schutte sometime after 1925.  The "Frumpy" comment leads me to think that this body may have been some sort of retrofit a bit later very similar to what has been done to many early RR automobiles, refitted, modified bodies to be more modernistic.  Several aspects suggest to me that this unit may have been such a vehicle, (fenders and windshield in particular) point to this body being a recipient of a form of a retrofit later on.  As has been mentioned, provenance can speak loudly here on this subject and could/should substantiate either story line.  It is what it is and will be continued to be enjoyed for what it is by the owner.  After all Locmobile is a custom automobile either when new or at a later date.

Al

Edited by alsfarms
clarity (see edit history)
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Cebert lived near San Rafael in Marin county. Sometime over drinks I’ll post the story about looking at this car. I thought he was absolutely insane when I first met him. Turned out he was sharp as a tack. He warned me not to leave the garage door open or the deer would run through the garage and start eating the grass in the backyard. So I open the door and I’m walking around the car. Within two minutes nine deer ran by the other side of the car into the backyard to eat. All of them except one or two had huge racks. You couldn’t fire a gun in that area so the deer were not afraid of people. They literally knew where the firing line was on the side of the mountain. They casually walked along the ridge. Then they bolted when they were in an area where you could shoot at them. It was one of the craziest things I’ve ever experienced in my life. Having very large books walked by you 6 feet away looking you in the eyes and they had no concern. 

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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That same trip I visited Craig Carr, he manufactured rubber products for a lot of cars pre 1960. Interesting gentleman with some nice vehicles. It’s hard to believe when I was doing those road trips that 15 or 20 years later 90% of them are gone. I drove down Lansdowne Street in San Francisco in a Chrysler imperial. Laughing my ass off the whole way. Had a visit with Jim Weston. A world-class collector who almost nobody had ever heard of. I was one of the few that was privileged to enter his collection building and spend some time there. 

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books or bucks....dang spell check!  I can relate.  I have an orchard in the mouth of a mountain canyon and continually struggle with the local deer population and for the same reason you mention.  Is all of the Seibert collection disbursed?

Al

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26 minutes ago, alsfarms said:

Where did Cebert Holmes reside?  Here is a hypothetical question regarding this Schutte bodied Locomobile.  Is it felt that this is a body built in 1925 by Schutte or was it a body modified by Schutte sometime after 1925.  The "Frumpy" comment leads me to think that this body may have been some sort of retrofit a bit later very similar to what has been done to many early RR automobiles, refitted, modified bodies to be more modernistic.  Several aspects suggest to me that this unit may have been such a vehicle, (fenders and windshield in particular) point to this body being a recipient of a form of a retrofit later on.  As has been mentioned, provenance can speak loudly here on this subject and could/should substantiate either story line.  It is what it is and will be continued to be enjoyed for what it is by the owner.  After all Locmobile is a custom automobile either when new or at a later date.

Al

I knew Cebert from the early 1960s.  He was a character and a half.  Carried his pocket change in a leather coin purse.  Most memorable phrase he repeatedly uttered, "How much do you think it will cost?" (pronounced "cawst," while rubbing his hands together)  I rode in his McFarlan roadster which he sold to Jack Passey.  I drove his almost completely original 1922 Loco Sportiff, which would have benefited from changing the original 1922 600W in its transmission and steering box, and his original P-A Series 36 4-passenger touring.  He lived in Oakland CA until about 1967 at which time he moved to Ross in Marin County, then later to San Anselmo, also in Marin.  (Ed is correct that both are in the general San Rafael area.)  Marmons were his primary interest, and the last car sold by his daughters after his 2013 passing was the 1925 Marmon 74 sedan his father bought new.

Edited by Grimy
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2 minutes ago, alsfarms said:

of Weston Hotel fame?

Al

No, but his family was in SF real estate.  Jim was a very quiet and unobtrusive man, generous to college student me, sold me my first DeSoto Suburban for $75, 30 years later gave me Pierce overdrive parts gratis.

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I'm fortunate that as a small child, I met and got to know some of the legendary car collectors........back when they were colorful and eccentric. Today, they are all nuts. I can see in my minds eye Bill Harrah sitting at our family's dining room table working on my father to sell him the Pierce Dual Cowl, eating from paper plates and drinking beer from a can. The beer was "Old Gold" with a pretzel on the front of it...........or, as we say in the industry.... a can of swill!

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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I feel lucky that I made it to Harrah's museum a couple of times before Bill passed on and then things really changed.  I also remember the monthly HMN with a big section of items that Harrah's would list for bid every month.  I was young enough that these HMN auctions were what dreams were made of and it served to keep many of us interested in the hobby of antique automobile collecting making many fine automobiles and projects available to others and at a level totally different than we see in the antique automobile hobby today.  I could get on the soap box....but won't.

Al

Edited by alsfarms (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, edinmass said:

I'm fortunate that as a small child, I met and got to know some of the legendary car collectors........back when they were colorful and eccentric. Today, they are all nuts. I can see in my minds eye Bill Harrah sitting at our family's dining room table working on my father to sell him the Pierce Dual Cowl, eating from paper plates and drinking beer from a can. The beer was "Old Gold" with a pretzel on the front of it...........or, as we say in the industry.... a can of swill!

I once knew a guy who drank anything. His nickname was Swildebeast.

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On 7/29/2022 at 5:47 PM, jcrow said:

Neither car has moved under their own power for many years.

What is going on with the Bonhams description of the Simplex? They are calling it a 38hp and having been purchased at the Art Austria’s 1971 auction.The Sotheby’s, Parke-Bernita auction catalog description say it’s 46hp 590 ci double chain drive. Big difference! Somethings wrong.

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It looks small to my eye. And when you consider half a floor sweepings big car sold for 700 ten years ago…….the low number equates to a small engine. 

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1 hour ago, edinmass said:

It looks small to my eye. And when you consider half a floor sweepings big car sold for 700 ten years ago…….the low number equates to a small engine. 

The front of catalog says Simplex Garage. The description is from the catalog about that Simplex. Who’s wrong? My guess is Bonhams.D2A2D6B8-B557-48CE-B646-A387979E71E1.jpeg.dcf3dbb570c3cc0f4e398a82aeed272e.jpeg09267FEA-8D0F-48CA-9C3C-DEA43EECD582.jpeg.09f3a90339b3ee06f2966935c720136f.jpeg

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I went to the Art Austria auction which was the first antique car auction I ever attended as I was interested in this Simplex based on the catalog decription. When I got to the preview and looked it over I noticed it was not a chain drive but a shaft drive and determined it was the Simplex 38 and even though the smaller car still had a large engine. I do not have my catalog in front of me but I think it sold for around $5900.As I looked it over though,I noticed quite a few missing items like the  sidelamps,tonneau items along with other items. The car has the Westinghouse air springs on the front but these are missing on the rear.The 1914 and 1915 tabs on the dash are very interesting because the number on those matched the California license plates.The 1914 and 1915 California automobile registration books are now online and the cars are registered by horsepower along with the make and name of owner.It should be possible with knowing the license numbers to find the name of the original owner and pertinent data on the car.After looking over the Simplex,I just felt it was too much of a project to take on although it is a very interesting well used car.I believe the body may be by Holbrook.The consignor needs to make sure though the starter is with the car.

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An addendum to my post about the 1913 Simplex.From the 1915 California tab which shows in the catalog photo of the dash I was able to look up the owner in the 1915 California registrations.

The tab number is 59353 and the book shows: #59353 H.T.Coffin 505 Fay Bldg. Los Angeles Simplex Touring Mod.1914 Fac.No.1051 HP.49.7 There was a later California plate on the car as shown in the catalog page which gives its license number.As I recall this plate was from the 1930's or 40's I thought this car had a long service life as it looked like it had served as a plumber's truck of some sort.

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Trying to not butt in. The car belonged to a friend from more than 50 years ago,

who was a very nice man, who knew early cars well, and who has collected much

memorabilia. He very well may have put those tags on the car. Simplex 38's are still

great cars. This particular car has been well used and in many respects is quite

worn out. It will need a major, major job. It is a Quinby body and the rear damage from

being cut up is not that bad. The top, of course, is also cut. Some wood is missing or

soft. The starter is not on the car, and I have been told that it was loaned out. I would

suspect that the purchase price will be the small part of the equation. It would be

wonderful if someone without any financial concerns returned it to its former glory.

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This subject Simplex either 38 or 46 pickup and Locomobile 48 will be very interesting to see where the prices go.  I hope that someone sorts out the exact accurate and proper description so the bidders will know what they are bidding on.  While we are chewing on the potential Simplex auction, I have a Locmobile question, but I already realize that there may not be a real firm answer.  I have been digging around several different records from the State of Connecticut regarding Locomobile licensing of automobiles in 1925-1926.  So far the best source open to me has been the licensing records on line found in the Connecticut State Library in Hartford.  The story has it that the Demarest Limousine, I purchased out of Connecticut, was a local automobile to the greater Bridgeport area for all of its life, until moving to Utah.  Now for the question.  I have chewed through the first of two books, 750 pages, of 1926 Licensing records and have not found my Locomobile.  I still have another 750 pages to go through, so we will see.  Ok, finally my question. I did locate a serious sister Locomobile to the Demarest Limousine.  The sister car is ser. 19109 whereas mine is ser. 19106.  That sister Locomobile was originally owned by A Fredrick Rawelle of Greenich, the peculiar bit of confirming information is that this Locomobile Limousine is called out as a Series 9 Locomobile, (correct) but has been titled and licensed as a 1924 with CT License plate 36828.  What should I make of this bit of information?  It is likely that both Limousines could have been at the body builders at the same time and that the seller of the Locomobile I purchased, simply made a surmise because the Demarest is a series 9 and called it a 1925 when it could likely be a 1924?  The next thought is that my Demarest could have been finished later and is a true legal 1925.  It has been very insightful as I have read through each line of 750 pages of automobile licensed in the state of Connecticut.  Locomobile simply was not that common at all, Pierce-Arrow certainly was making a splash with the Model 80.  A few Junior 8 Locomobiles are noted.  I can see why Buick, Cadillac and Nash are and remain a big influence in the antique automobile hobby, there was a HUGE amount of them built and sold!  I also noted that most automobile owners by 1925 preferred newer cars.  The largest concentration of cars licensed were 1920 and newer for the year licensing 1926.  One curious thing, the oldest automobile I saw in the records, so far was a 1912 Locmobile 30 Torpedo. There was also a 1913 Pope Hartford touring.  If you can offer any good thoughts, please share.  Over the next few days, I will be grinding through the second 750 pages of 1926 Connecticut passenger car licensing information.

Al    

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5 hours ago, WDS said:

I went to the Art Austria auction which was the first antique car auction I ever attended as I was interested in this Simplex based on the catalog decription. When I got to the preview and looked it over I noticed it was not a chain drive but a shaft drive and determined it was the Simplex 38 and even though the smaller car still had a large engine. I do not have my catalog in front of me but I think it sold for around $5900.As I looked it over though,I noticed quite a few missing items like the  sidelamps,tonneau items along with other items. The car has the Westinghouse air springs on the front but these are missing on the rear.The 1914 and 1915 tabs on the dash are very interesting because the number on those matched the California license plates.The 1914 and 1915 California automobile registration books are now online and the cars are registered by horsepower along with the make and name of owner.It should be possible with knowing the license numbers to find the name of the original owner and pertinent data on the car.After looking over the Simplex,I just felt it was too much of a project to take on although it is a very interesting well used car.I believe the body may be by Holbrook.The consignor needs to make sure though the starter is with the car.

Mystery solved. Thank you.

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4 hours ago, jcrow said:

Trying to not butt in. The car belonged to a friend from more than 50 years ago,

who was a very nice man, who knew early cars well, and who has collected much

memorabilia. He very well may have put those tags on the car. Simplex 38's are still

great cars. This particular car has been well used and in many respects is quite

worn out. It will need a major, major job. It is a Quinby body and the rear damage from

being cut up is not that bad. The top, of course, is also cut. Some wood is missing or

soft. The starter is not on the car, and I have been told that it was loaned out. I would

suspect that the purchase price will be the small part of the equation. It would be

wonderful if someone without any financial concerns returned it to its former glory.

Letting us know the truth is not butting in its a favor. The experience you have is great and that you put it out for history sake is kind. Bummer about the starter. Thanks

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