1911 - 1927 Locomobile 48 & 38 Gathering Place

[prewarnut]

If the Motor Age article is correct then as the initial design was by Locomobile then even though multiple coachworks built the final examples it would seem that the design would be somewhat similar in nature. Is this found to be correct from extant examples? Not being an expert student of Locomobile but recognizing their conservative and long-lived model 48 this seems plausible. I guess that leads to a different but related question, other than some of the descriptions of Dutch Darrin and other greats do designs of the classic era exist from some of the coachbuilders either in the AACA or historical societies somewhere? It would be interesting, for example, to see Locomobile's specs typed up or drawn in the archives of Brewster somewhat like Cadillac's specs at Fleetwood or Lincoln's at Brunn...

[George K]

This is on a 1917 Locomobile Gunboat Cabriolet.

[edinmass]

The above photo is neat………never seen anything like it. The Loco tag looks like it’s added much later…….obviously if George took the snapshot it’s correct. How common is it to see two tags on a Loco? I can’t remember seeing a builder tag on any in person. 

[edinmass]

There is a Loco on Bring a Trailer this morning………..interesting history, for a late car.

[AHa]

Prewar Nut poses an interesting question in the light of Al's Demarist bodied 1925 and the 1917 Brewster bodied car owned by UFO Garage. From 20', the two cars look identical. I understand Locomobile also produced two almost identical roadsters. It would seem when duplicate bodies were ordered, they were let to different body building companies so that there would never be two alike.

[George K]

3 hours ago, edinmass said:

The above photo is neat………never seen anything like it. The Loco tag looks like it’s added much later…….obviously if George took the snapshot it’s correct. How common is it to see two tags on a Loco? I can’t remember seeing a builder tag on any in person. 

Not common at all. When de Causse came onboard examples were commissioned. Locomobile didn’t have in house body building but didn’t allow builders to tag to create the illusion  of in house capabilities.

You have seen the car.

[George K]

33 minutes ago, AHa said:

Prewar Nut poses an interesting question in the light of Al's Demarist bodied 1925 and the 1917 Brewster bodied car owned by UFO Garage. From 20', the two cars look identical. I understand Locomobile also produced two almost identical roadsters. It would seem when duplicate bodies were ordered, they were let to different body building companies so that there would never be two alike.

SAE standardization. Hand built but not custom.

[George K]

4 hours ago, edinmass said:

The above photo is neat………never seen anything like it. The Loco tag looks like it’s added much later…….obviously if George took the snapshot it’s correct. How common is it to see two tags on a Loco? I can’t remember seeing a builder tag on any in person. 

P.S. I never asked Stephen about the tags. Very original car when he found it. If the Locomobile tag was on the car it most likely was originally on the dashboard. Your instinct is spot on.

[edinmass]

When it comes to the unusual and obscure, the more you learn, the less you know! Almost anything special pre 1929 doesn’t come with a rule of thumb. Toss in the late 40’s and 50’s restorations that were done back when VMCCA was the major playing field……..no one cared too much about authenticity. Hell half the decent original cars in the HCCA were built from scraps in the early days of the hobby when cars, parts, and labor were cheap and available. Lots of nice cars were turned into hose wagons and tow trucks……and today are “unmolested originals” with their “stock factory installed bodies”…………

[alsfarms]

When it comes to the unusual and obscure, the more you learn, the less you know! 

That is a profound statement made by Ed.  This custom body business, as found on Locomobile and a few others, is certainly baffling!  The last posting by George shows a very near exact body style to the 1925 Demarest unrestored Limousine, I purchased out of the Hartford area of Conn.  I am trying to get a better understanding, but as Ed suggested above, I feel like I understand less now, but I certainly have a better appreciation for Locomobile.

Al

[edinmass]

Al………fifty years of looking gives you a feel you simply can’t explain. Always trust your eye, and absolutely never ever expect what you’re looking at is real or correct. Use those as a starting point. Today photos are free if you have a good computer skills it’s easy to keep files for information reference. 

[AHa]

13 hours ago, George K said:

1917 Locomobile Gunboat Cabriolet

If I understand this right, and I am a rank amateur, the Gunboat Cabriolet was made by Healey body builders, yet, it has the distinctive Brewster forward kick at the lower front of the body. This kick is an almost exclusively Brewster design from way back in the buggy days. One could almost say it is a patented design element. It makes me feel untrusting of the Healey body tag.

Edited July 27, 2022 by AHa (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Is the Bring a Trailer Locomobile 90 the car that has been on and off sale for the last couple of years?  It does appear to be a nice, well done version of a Model 90 Locomobile.  Does anyone here have additional info they can share that will help this BAT auction to a successful conclusion with a happy new Locomobile owner?

Al

Edited July 27, 2022 by alsfarms
Clarity (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Update regarding the picture of a 1925 Locomobile Limousine in front of the PT Barnum Marina Estate, shown above. Another chat thread is in progress on this same picture on the AACA pre WW2 picture forum. I posted there of an inquiry I have made to the Historical side of the Bridgeport Public Library.  What a kind and helpful group they are!  Hopefully, in a day or two she will contact me with answers to several questions I asked that relate to the above noted picture.  I am hopeful but not overly optimistic.....

Al

[George K]

4 hours ago, AHa said:

If I understand this right, and I am a rank amateur, the Gunboat Cabriolet was made by Healey body builders, yet, it has the distinctive Brewster forward kick at the lower front of the body. This kick is an almost exclusively Brewster design from way back in the buggy days. One could almost say it is a patented design element. It makes me feel untrusting of the Healey body tag.

Here’s the provenance. Untrustworthy? Here’s a photo of a Locke body 1916.

[George K]

7 hours ago, alsfarms said:

When it comes to the unusual and obscure, the more you learn, the less you know! 

That is a profound statement made by Ed.  This custom body business, as found on Locomobile and a few others, is certainly baffling!  The last posting by George shows a very near exact body style to the 1925 Demarest unrestored Limousine, I purchased out of the Hartford area of Conn.  I am trying to get a better understanding, but as Ed suggested above, I feel like I understand less now, but I certainly have a better appreciation for Locomobile.

Al

Al, Where is your Dermarest on your car.?

[George K]

7 hours ago, edinmass said:

When it comes to the unusual and obscure, the more you learn, the less you know! Almost anything special pre 1929 doesn’t come with a rule of thumb. Toss in the late 40’s and 50’s restorations that were done back when VMCCA was the major playing field……..no one cared too much about authenticity. Hell half the decent original cars in the HCCA were built from scraps in the early days of the hobby when cars, parts, and labor were cheap and available. Lots of nice cars were turned into hose wagons and tow trucks……and today are “unmolested originals” with their “stock factory installed bodies”…………

Lots of Pierce 66’s went to work in fire departments. Minneapolis had their own fire department shop to convert many high horse powered cars into fire vehicles.

 

[alsfarms]

George, I have found nothing, as of yet, that says anything or identifies "Demarest".  Maybe as I get into the "dirty" work I may locate some form of identification that will point to being built by Demarest.   The father of the gentleman, that I purchased the Locomobile from, was the mouthpiece for stating the Limousine having a Demarest built body.  You may have know the gentleman in the past, he is now gone.  If anyone else with a Demarest body would speak up, I would really like to know where to look for any specific identification markings.

Al

[prewarnut]

6 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Is the Bring a Trailer Locomobile 90 the car that has been on and off sale for the last couple of years?  I

 

   Yes. sold at auction for $54K (maybe plus fees) to a dealer, then just purchased by the current seller who is flipping it. It will be interesting if it sells since not much time has elapsed. It was a no-sale at $385K in 2016 and had high bids in low six figures after that but struggled until the recent auction and now flip. I like it but parts would probably be unobtanium. Very few profile pictures (until now) exist of it. What I noticed is that we know the WB is shorter than the 48 but from prior photos I estimate it rides 1.5 - 2" higher (if you follow the running boards to axle centers compared with the 48). What I am unclear about is whether Locomobile built it this way or it was restored with a change in leaf springs. It doesn't have the "long and low" appearance of the other Locomobiles. I wonder if that difference in appearance somehow has held it back. The Cliff Durant provenance is neat but he probably didn't drive it very long and he also didn't live too much longer (died 10 years later).

[edinmass]

If it isn’t a 48……it’s gonna be a very hard sell.

[alsfarms]

Let's watch and see where the market takes the Model 90.  I hope it can find an owner and not necessarily a quick flipper.  Time will tell.  The Model 90 is to Locomobile as to what the Model 36 is to Pierce-Arrow.

Al

[prewarnut]

Ed, The "90" is said to not be restored (although I have my doubts - I think I saw notation somewhere that the 3rd owner had seats reupholstered and if you look underneath there's black on the undersides of the wood floors). Anyhow, it has a "Locomobile" script on the radiator. So my question, Do you think Cliff needed to know what he was driving?😁

[AHa]

Prewar,

 

I assume your question is rhetorical. Radiator tags are not put on vehicles so the owner can remember what they are driving; they are put on so everybody else knows what they are driving. I'll never forget driving my car one Sunday evening when a couple stopped me to ask, "Is that a model T?" I was flabbergasted, and answered, no.

 

I loved the story of the guy who bought his sister a Locomobile for her birthday. That's a world I can't conceive of.

[edinmass]

One must remember the wealth generated during the gilded age in America......and NO INCOME TAXES till after WW1.........of course, income taxes were only temporary to pay off the debt and then they would go away...........just ask any of the hundreds of millions of people who file every April 15th. 

 

The Gilded Age generated wealth like the Dot Com and internet era. So one off special cars with unusual bodies (good looking and bad) were commonplace for the big dollar chassis automobiles. Bill Gates buying his sister a new Ferrari today for just a few million dollars would be no big deal today....just like back in 1915. Also, you had the depression of 1920-1921...........a few good years in the mid to late 20's......then the crash. It was a time of economic and technologicial upheavel for the entire nation..........placing the final nails in the coffin of special one off coach built cars and exotic chassis. The modern dealership selling and servicing model was in full swing....further causing pressure on small manufacturers to go away.......when WWII production started kicking in........it was the final event that forever killed off spectacular one of kind automobiles.......

[alsfarms]

Here is a slight change of subject matter for a minute.  If you own or have a friend that owns an early 6 cylinder Locomobile that would have a bulb type brass horn.  I have a potential project in the works to make new bulbs for the brass horns with the Locomobile script.  Contact me with a PM if you are interested in this project.

Al

[George K]

Lyndhurst Mansion. Gould family circa 1920. Now that guy needed a big touring car.

[alsfarms]

And a running board dog kennel!  What state and town was this picture taken?  The Locomobile Gunboat roadster looks like it has had use for sure.

Al

[prewarnut]

New York. Interesting the girls' hair and dog's fur has more shine than the Loco. Looks like it is a museum now. I haven't been - Thanks! Not too far from Kykuit, also worth seeing. Nelson Rockefeller's limo is still in the carriage house there wth NY1 plates on it.

[AHa]

Lyndhurst Mansion is the old Gould Estate in Tarrytown NY. It, with its 67 acres of grounds, was designated a national park in 1966.

 

[George K]

Unusual rumble seat steps from the front.

[alsfarms]

I would like to see a picture of a Locomobile with outside exhaust close up and with the hood open.

Al

 

[George K]

Nothing but sheet metal two into one manifolds and round top slots in the hood. Not much to it. It’s all just work.

[edinmass]

The steps on the front of the rear fender was done by Murphy in 1929……..everyone stole from people who came earlier……….great photo. Love the dogs. 

[alsfarms]

I was wondering if the two to one manifold was formed or a cast item.  It is odd that A. Riker went to great lengths to build a better breathing jug, dual port, only to have the sportiest model put two to one for the external pipes.  My two cent opinion is it would have been better for performance and looks to have had six straight pipes exiting the hood side panel and not the three.

I wonder how many Locomobiles are still sporting the side pipes?

Al

[George K]

40 minutes ago, alsfarms said:

I was wondering if the two to one manifold was formed or a cast item.  It is odd that A. Riker went to great lengths to build a better breathing jug, dual port, only to have the sportiest model put two to one for the external pipes.  My two cent opinion is it would have been better for performance and looks to have had six straight pipes exiting the hood side panel and not the three.

I wonder how many Locomobiles are still sporting the side pipes?

Al

So far one. Never know though.

[George K]

This is what it looks like. Mercedes.

[prewarnut]

Another 48 Sportif is coming up for auction next month by Bonhams so will be interesting to see the price. Estimate is under 6 figures. It looks very original but will need recommissioning.

 

Edited July 29, 2022 by prewarnut
misspelling (see edit history)

[edinmass]

The above car has a painted radiator and windshield..........done at the factory? Or someone with a Model T budget on the restoration? Usually when I see something like this when trying to buy a car I run......if they wouldn't toss down for nickel on the car.......what are they using for oil? Drain oil out of a tractor trailer? Bumper has semi gloss Rustoleum........like to know what others think when they see such "improvements".

 

Quick google check.......I only see two cars with painted radiators...........

Edited July 29, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[George K]

41 minutes ago, edinmass said:

The above car has a painted radiator and windshield..........done at the factory? Or someone with a Model T budget on the restoration? Usually when I see something like this when trying to buy a car I run......if they wouldn't toss down for nickel on the car.......what are they using for oil? Drain oil out of a tractor trailer? Bumper has semi gloss Rustoleum........like to know what others think when they see such "improvements".

 

Quick google check.......I only see two cars with painted radiators...........

Locomobile going bankrupt. What else can you say. This picture showing side vent shows the real story.

[George K]

55 minutes ago, edinmass said:

The above car has a painted radiator and windshield..........done at the factory? Or someone with a Model T budget on the restoration? Usually when I see something like this when trying to buy a car I run......if they wouldn't toss down for nickel on the car.......what are they using for oil? Drain oil out of a tractor trailer? Bumper has semi gloss Rustoleum........like to know what others think when they see such "improvements".

 

Quick google check.......I only see two cars with painted radiators...........

P.S. Check out the Lyndhurst photo.