My newley purchased 1921 5 Pass Touring car

[Mark Kikta]

Well, I wanted to post a couple of pictures of my new purchase of this 1921 Buick. It's been inside a trailer for many years and I couldn't get many good pictures since I have not moved it out yet. Don't know if it even rolls. I pushed and pulled on the doors and the cowling and everything felt solid, so I hope the body wood is good. The floorboards seemed solid also and the upholstery seems untorn from what I could see. The windshield looked great with no cracks.  The only real "body rot" I saw was on the lower right hood. Don't know much else about the car.  The serial number from the rear frame is 772608.  I did not get any engine numbers.  I will plan to go get the car in the next few months since I live in MD and the car is in Fl and I am still working full time. The car is said to have been vandalized in a Barn in NC about 20 years ago so the door handles, headlamps and radiator cap are missing.  Front fenders were solid and laying on top of the car hood.  I am excited to get it home to start tinkering with it.  Can anyone tell me when this was built by the serial number?

[ROD W]

Mark ,   Congratulations on your new purchase. By that frame number,  it looks like a 1922 model.  This would have been manufactured in late 1921.   1921 and 1922 are almost identical and if it has  118 inch wheel base,   it is most likely to be the Model 45  five seat tourer .

[Mark Kikta]

Rod,

 

thats what I thought as well but the seller said it was a21.  I’ll be anxious to see what the title says when he sends it.

[unimogjohn]

Mark, looks to be a nice car.  Cannot wait for more pics.  I have a 23 and am close by if you need any help.  

[Mark Kikta]

I know I will need help,  thank you.  I won’t be afraid to call.

[Hubert_25-25]

Mark,   

    Thanks for posting the pictures here.  It does not look like it has seen the light of day for a while.  It looks like a good project.   The engine number plate is on the steering side of the engine on the crank case.  The serial number plate is on the side of the chassis about where the steering box comes thru the frame.  Interesting to me that you noted it was in the back of the car, so I want to make sure we have the right number.  My car has the engine number on the title which was common practice in the early days.  When you get the car, there are a couple of book that you will need to help you with finding parts.   Hugh

[dibarlaw]

Mark:

 Congratulations. If it is a 1922 there were several in our area. John Fesser and I worked on a 1922-45, 4-5 years ago and I believe I still have the contact of the person who bought that car. He is in the Baltimore area.

 

[Mark Kikta]

Thanks Larry.  I would like to talk with the buyer and maybe get a chance to see the car.

[Mark Kikta]

Hugh,

 

I have already ordered reference manual, shop manual and parts manual. Any others I should get my hands on?

 

Mark

Edited July 21, 2018 by Mark Kikta
spelling (see edit history)

[jbbuick22]

A copy of Dave Chambers article in Antique Automobile , I think April 1971.

 

 

John

22-6-55 Sport touring

[Hubert_25-25]

Mark, I use this master parts book a lot.  It will help with finding the year range of parts that are available.   Hugh

[Mark Kikta]

Hugh,   I just ordered one of those.  I look forward to using it.

 

Mark

[dibarlaw]

Mark:

 Sending a personal message with the contact information of the new owner of the 1922-45 from the Boyle Buick ad.

I see on the map you are about 3 hours from me in PA. And a 1/2 hour east of DC.

 Also a few more photos of the 1922 that used to be owned by a Mr. Whiteford from Baltimore. He used a special prop (broom stick) to drop the rear of the top since I believe his garage door opening was only 6'3". Mr. Whiteford had many spare parts for the car which the Boyle dealership neglected to get. I had the new owner get in touch with Mr. Whiteford's son for the spares if they still had them.

 A word or two about originality of this car... Mr.Whiteford did hardwood floor installation and loved to see wood. He stripped off the linoleum on the floor boards and running boards, stained and varnished them. Also added veneer to the dash and kick panels.

 He had a 8 track player and bar installed in the back. Included a bolted on shelf on the firewall for a 12V battery to operate the tape player and the "chasing" running lights under the running boards. The car had a very serviceable correct green paint job but they had painted everything green The fenders, splash shields, mud pan and radiator shell are to be Black. The top was very nicely done with side curtains. The upholstery was done in vinyl but looked very overstuffed. Most of the restoration was done before Mr. Whiteford acquired the car. 

[Mark Kikta]

Larry,

 

Thank you for those pictures.  Looks as though the car was done nicely even if not as original.  The wood look on the dash and floor is not for me however.  I want the dash and floor to look more origjnal.  I have seen some pre war paint jobs that are very elegant looking and not origjnal.  My wife is very excited about this car and she has a lot of ideas already about paint colors.  We are a long way from that however.

 

 

I am in the market for an enclosed trailer for the car.  I have not seen an overall length and height in print anywhere yet.  Do you know what those numbers might be with  bumpers?  

 

Thanks,

Mark

[Hubert_25-25]

Mark, 

    To each his own, but I am partial to original colors.  The unique thing about this era is that for example, the touring cars were green, and the sedans were blue.  So yes colors were available but only on certain models.  The doors and wheels were also stocked in the cars body color and pinstriped, not like today where the parts are stocked in primer grey.    This is the color chart.  What I will say about the color chart is that these numbers don't mean a lot since all the paints have been reformulated.  Larry's and my car (1925-25) were both Brewster Green, and we found a small patch on the car that was color matched and we have the modern paint codes.  If you are lucky you will have a piece of original paint under a trim piece, or perhaps another Buick club member knows definitively what the color looked like.  I also just looked in the Large Master Parts book, and it lists the wheels for your car as "Brewster Green with a gold stripe".  So we have your paint code.  It is a very dark Green.  Our cars are later and use red striping.  Attached is a photo of Leif's car in Brewster Green with red stripes - Also a 1925-25.

 Hugh

 

Edited July 23, 2018 by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)

[Mark Kikta]

Hugh,

 

Thank you for this information.   I did not know any of that. As I remember though, the car I purchased is green on the firewall. That fits right in with this document. I clearly have a lot to learn. I'm sure I will learn something new every day I tinker with this car. Ilove learning new things!  

[Hubert_25-25]

Mark, 

      I saw the starter crank just inside the hood.  To let you know, the waterpump is on the right side of the engine, and it is probably frozen.  The water pump gear is driven by the camshaft gear.   The camshaft gear is a fiber gear, and the teeth are not very strong and can be damaged easily.  Before someone attempts to crank the engine to see if it will turn, I suggest that you first remove the water pump and its shaft.  I can dig up a procedure on this when you need it, and look it up in your shop manual.  You can free up the waterpump on the workbench and attempt to turn the engine over once this is removed.  I think you even have to be careful removing the waterpump and paying attention that the water pump gear teeth are lifted straight off the timing gear teeth.  My fiber timing gear was broken, and I can only assume it was broken during the water pump removal process, based on how the cracks are in it.  I can also tell you that my water pump was frozen and if the motor was attempted to be turned over with this frozen water pump, it would have stripped the gear teeth off in one spot.  Photo is my damaged gear and a 1922 6 cylinder engine.   Hugh

[J.H.Boland]

18 hours ago, Mark Kikta said:

 

 

 

I am in the market for an enclosed trailer for the car.  I have not seen an overall length and height in print anywhere yet.  Do you know what those numbers might be with  bumpers?  

 

Thanks,

Mark

 

Hi Mark

I just took delivery of a new Atlas Trailer.I had a 16 ft Atlas for my '21 Chevy roadster pickup that required lowering the top to put it in. After purchasing my '25 Buick coupe, I required a taller trailer.I ordered a 20 ft.trailer with one foot of extra height, making the ramp door opening 82" high rather than the standard 72". This works fine for even my big '29 McLaughlin-Buick club sedan.You could likely get away with a standard 72" ramp door if you don't mind dropping the top all the time.Some guys prefer a 24 ft.trailer with room for tools,spares,etc.I went with 20 ft. partly because I store the trailer inside, and I don't have room for a 24 footer.I can scan my invoice for you if you wish.It shows the upgrades I ordered (prices are in Canadian dollars).

Jim

[Mark Kikta]

Quote

 

Hugh,

 

My friend who owned this car before passing was one of those guys who liked to use a lot of oil.  I see he took the cover off of the engine and there was a can of oil sitting there next to th engine.  I suspect he was squirting oil every where a little at a time to unstick the engine.  I will follow you guidance when I get it home before trying to crank it around for sure

[Mark Kikta]

Jim,

 

That's a nice looking trailer.  I was thinking I would need an 18 or 20' foot long trailer.  How wide is your trailer?  That's good information on the height too.  So you had it custom ordered?  Thanks

 

 

Mark

[J.H.Boland]

2 hours ago, Mark Kikta said:

Jim,

 

That's a nice looking trailer.  I was thinking I would need an 18 or 20' foot long trailer.  How wide is your trailer?  That's good information on the height too.  So you had it custom ordered?  Thanks

 

 

Mark

 

Hi Mark.

It's 8.5 feet wide outside and 7.8 feet wide inside.That's the maximum legal width.It was custom ordered and took almost 2 months.This one has screwless sides also, with no screws or rivets to rust.

Jim

[dibarlaw]

Mark.

 Just my opinion but... This is not a show car yet. I think an open trailer would do just fine. Lash everything down put all loose items in the truck bed and make for Maryland!

 This is how my 1925 Standard came to me back in October 2011 from New York.

 This is how we brought my 1925 Master home in September 2016

[Mark Kikta]

Larry,

I agree with you and was considering buying an open trailer. Trouble is, I am out of garage space until I enlarge my large shed.  Also here around DC i will never be able to drive this car that many places safely.  The traffic would prohibit that in my mind. So I figure I could store it in the trailer until I get the building enlarged and could always trailer it to events.  Trying to think ahead, if that's possible Ha.  Not willinging to sell my 39 Chev or my 67 Impala conv to make room.

[dibarlaw]

Mark :

 I understand your reasoning now. Thinking ahead is a good thing.

 But, Mr.Whiteford told us he drove his 1922 around Baltimore BELTWAY at 60 mph!!! 2 wheel brakes on I 95!! He must of had a death wish!

[Brian_Heil]

Welcome Mark!

[C Carl]

9 hours ago, dibarlaw said:

Mark :

 I understand your reasoning now. Thinking ahead is a good thing.

 But, Mr.Whiteford told us he drove his 1922 around Baltimore BELTWAY at 60 mph!!! 2 wheel brakes on I 95!! He must of had a death wish!

 

In the "good old days", Ed LaBelle and I would usually park next to each other at get togethers out here. My 1924 Cad touring, Ed with his gorgeous yellow and black 1920 Cadillac tulip touring. Ed was a true wizard, and I miss him very much. He had done a last nut and bolt restoration  completely by himself. Even had to fabricate the front fenders from scratch. All critical mechanical fasteners were upgraded with modern metallurgical replacements. I asked him what speed he felt comfortable steady cruising. "60 on the freeway", Ed replied. Well, that would have put it at about 3000 rpm. That is close to hosspower peak, rather than torque peak, which is 1800-2200 rpm. Torque peak is NORMALLY a very gracious range for sustainable high speed cruise. In these old nickel era Cadillacs, this corresponds to about 40-45 mph, high speed cruise indeed for 1920. Problem is, the harmonic vibration in these flat plane crankshaft Leland 90 degree V8s is at maximum at 2000 rpm. Leland designed the Lincoln 60 degree V8 so as to have the uneven impulses push the vibration down into a much lower, and less stressful rpm range. Ed solved the issue by carefully rebuilding his engine to allow the much higher speed cruise, out of the vibration range. He sure didn't have a death wish, but even with my inherently balanced '24 and'27 Cad engines and 4 wheel brakes, I feel uncomfortable over 40 mph. I have had to get the '27 up to 60 a couple of times so as not to impede traffic flow. We didn't like that very much. As we all know, these  things are incredibly ill-equipped to deal with emergency handling situations.

 

Please don't drive like my "brother" Ed, Mr. Whiteford, neither.   "Little bit older, and a little bit slower",   -  Cadillac Carl 

[dibarlaw]

C Carl:

 To me, the beltway around Washington DC or Baltimore is my most hated drive no matter what speed. (Of course driving to Brookfield Wis. for the 2017 Buick Nationals, having to get around Chicago really matches the experience).If one is not going at least 15 MPH over the speed limit you get cut off if you leave an appropriate safe following distance. Much weaving between lanes and no signals. Even with my 1937 Buick Special which I can keep up at 60-65 for the short time I am forced to be on the "miles of mayhem" it is very scary!

[Mark Kikta]

I can't even imagine driving this car 60 mph on 495, 66 or even Rt 50.  I would not enjoy that in my 1939 Chev which is more equipped for that.

[Mark Kikta]

I am still planning on bringing the Buick home in early November.  I recently picked up this trailer which needs just a little work and I plan to bring the old girl home on this.  My son recently checked on the car and covered up more of it with a new tarp just to keep any chance of water exposure until I can go get it.  Also decided to stack a couple of cars in my garage instead of building a new garage.  Hopefully this idea works out.  I will purchase a four post storage lift.

[Hubert_25-25]

Just a note of caution regarding use of tarps.   The tarp needs to be off the ground or you  create a biosphere. If it is on a concrete slab, that helps, but then you have to keep rain off the slab.   If this is a dirt floor, the moisture in the ground will find its way into the underside of the tarp.  Best if some string is used to wrap the tarp to the body and keep the tarp off the ground so that you keep rain off and have good ventilation to keep out any condensation.  You could wrap the wheels separately if you wanted to keep everything dry and not pick up moisture.    I covered a car once with a tarp on a dirt floor and later came out after a rainstorm and inside the car was just dripping with water.  

[Mark Kikta]

This is inside a trailer with an open deck between ramps.  I thought it should be OK for the moisture issue being 6 or so inches off the ground and being open underneath??

[Hubert_25-25]

Mark,   

          If the plastic is up off the ground and the tarp is acting as an umbrella you are probably OK.  I thought that was on the ground, but I can see some small tail lights at the bottom of the picture.