Guest Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 I have seen two different patterns used to refurbish dash panels on the '40-'41 Buicks. What did the Buick factory do? Both, neither? Be nice to have some documentation to seperate claims from facts so expensive work is not done only to find its been done not as it left the factory. Thanx for input. Please state documented evidence as opposed to opinions, thanx! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil morse Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 (edited) Greg, I'm going to chime in here not because I know the answer (I don't), but because you raise an issue that I have been curious about since I got my '41. Does anyone know for sure how these dash panels were done at the factory? It appears from looking at the ones on my car that the "engine turned" pattern is actually some kind of a decal or appliqué that is applied over smooth steel rather than an actual engraving. So many cars have areas where it appears that someone trying to clean it too aggressively has worn off the pattern in places, as you can see in this photo of my dash. Also, you see many cars where someone has taken it all off down to the bare metal. On the other hand, I have talked to people who insist that the panels were actually engraved at the factory. If so, it seems that it was only done very lightly since it apparently takes no more than maybe fine steel wool to remove it. (I haven't experimented with this, I'm just speculating based on the appearance of my dash.) I know, of course, that Doug Seybold got his start as the '40-'41 Buick guru refinishing the dash panels by actually machining them, and my understanding is that almost all high point cars have had the panels refinished by Doug. But this must be a very labor-intensive way of reproducing the appearance of the originals, not the way they were done to begin with. Correct? Here's a quote from a Hemmings article about Doug that I found while I was composing this post: " ... the fabulous engine-turned dashboard, which Buick originally created by applying the engine turning--a process called damascening--directly on the metal surface of the dashboard, rather than on an overlay." I'm sure it's just a product of my ignorance about the tool and die process, but that's about as clear as mud to me. Can anyone enlighten me on this? Okay, I didn't mean to hijack your thread, but I figured my question was roughly on topic and the question has obviously been bugging me! Edited July 4, 2018 by neil morse (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daves1940Buick56S Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 (edited) On mine the "engine turning" is actually a decal called Di-noc. Mine is coming off a bit near the bottom but otherwise both panels still look pretty good. Cheers, Dave Edited July 4, 2018 by Daves1940Buick56S (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 Engine turning can be done by hand using a drill press with a small circle of sandpaper on an arbor. The plate is fed under it in one direction with the same advance each time and the sand paper touched to it at each stop to make a scratch circle. Advance one step, make a mark. After a row is done, move the guide across one row and repeat. We have at least one car in our Vintage Car Club done that way, a Railton (with Hudson 8 engine). The tricky bit is to get the same impression for each mark = the same downwards pressure, while accounting for wear in the cutter (sandpaper). Clearly, the less costly way is to use a computer generated and printed decal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil morse Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 3 hours ago, Daves1940Buick56S said: On mine the "engine turning" is actually a decal called Dynoc. Mine is coming off a bit near the bottom but otherwise both panels still look pretty good. Cheers, Dave I assume you're referring to DI-NOC, which is a 3M vinyl product used to give a surface a faux wood, carbon fiber, etc. look. I'm curious. Do you mean that you know that Buick originally used a DI-NOC product, or that your car looks as if it was done with something like DI-NOC, or that maybe your car was restored by someone using DI-NOC? I found this product from a cursory Internet search: https://mnpctech.com/pc-mod-vinyl-wrap-graphics-modding-films-sticker/engine-turned-film/engine-turned-film-en.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil morse Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 Here's a video showing the old school way of doing it. I assume this is what Doug Seybold does. Does anyone know how much he charges? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil morse Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 Greg, getting back to your original question, do you have sample pics of the two patterns you are talking about? That might help people answer the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 Thanx for getting in the issue a little deeper. The dash panels are actually 2 layered there is a base piece, formed I assume first and separate from the front "cover" which, I'm guessing was decorated flat with the machining then hole punched and if you look inside the panel you can see where they somehow at the factory swaged the outer panel, which had smaller gauge holes initially to the inside of the gauge holes to tie them together. Tough to create a visual image without the panels to look at. I contend Di noc was not used as I have soaked these in Evao-Rust to remove corrosion, but first had to strip off old yellowed clear laquer. Never encountered a sheet type material like Di noc, as all the turning I encountered had been machined onto the base metal facing. Mostly I'm recounting reading that I've done from Buick publications and reports from some earlier members and some former factory workers reports of how they did it. Big? is, straight lines vert and horz or staggered giving a look of diagonal aspect, which seems to be the consistent visual I've seen on all the obvious originals I've removed from 1940&1941? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil morse Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 2 hours ago, 2carb40 said: Big? is, straight lines vert and horz or staggered giving a look of diagonal aspect, which seems to be the consistent visual I've seen on all the obvious originals I've removed from 1940&1941? I'm not completely confident that I understand what you are saying here, but the pattern on my panels (clearly original) are definitely "staggered" rather than straight. This is the glove box door, which is pretty much in perfect condition. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 That looks exactly what Ive come to know as original to Buicks. Some are selling other patterns as "original", but with straight lines instead of staggered like your photo. I guess, as one vender advertising says he can do all the different patterns he asks, send in a representative photo. Some found out too late there is more than one pattern! Caveat- ask before having it done, as you dont automatically get the Buick factory pattern from some. Expensive redo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podster Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 I had mine done by Doug Seybold about eighteen years ago and they look as good as the day i received them back. I also visited his shop about ten years ago and left confident that he is by far the person to go to pertaining to 1940 and 1941 Buicks. But his work is expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil morse Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 (edited) I just found another thread on this topic in the buy/sell forum that sheds further light on this subject. This thread was advertising a set of panels refinished by Doug Seybold for sale. They look beautiful, but the pattern is indeed "straight" vertical and horizontal rather than the "staggered" pattern on the original. Compare the Seybold refinished glove box door with my original one, and you will see the difference. Edited July 5, 2018 by neil morse (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 Thats the pattern difference that Ive been wondering about. Ive never seen that "straight" pattern on any original looking '40-41 Buick Ive looked at. Its subtle enuff to be not noticed by folks not owning a Buick with this feature or until they compare theirs with others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 In 1955 Buick also used engine turned dash inserts. The pattern was staggered to the left. There are a number of ways to do the actual turning. Some better than others.............Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgreen Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 I have several pictures of dash panels from those that are original and unrestored to two types of restored dash panels. The original left and right dash panels were made of two layers of steel. The first was a stamped structure that held the studs to attach the panel to the dash the second was the thinner gauge with the engine turned pattern. The radio face plate was the single plate of engine turned steel and relied on fastening by the radio knobs and two tabs on the top that fit under the radio speaker grill. Skip Boyer tells me that Buick (or their supplier) had bulk flat sheets of engine turned sheet steel that was then cut and stamped then overlaid onto the base metal with the edges crimped. Of all the instrument and glove box panels (left and right panel) that I have seen, the two layers was universally observed. The restoration of these panels is done one of three ways that I have seen: 1) decal application on cleaned panels, 2) Returning the pattern on polished steel, and 3) nickel or chrome plating the panels then turning the pattern on them. The decals will last several years but may be difficult to form around the instrument opening. With new technology in wraps, I would suspect some really good work can be done. Polishing the old panels is somewhat expensive depending upon whom you get a quote. The reason people plate their old panels is to cover pitted conditions on the original panels or to have a more maintenance free panel as the polished steel can re-rust and requires a clear coat finish. Chrome is too bright and makes the dash glare. Nickel is closer to the appearance of polished steel and is still a maintenance free or nearly maintenance free finish. The other variable that I see is the offset or lack of offset in the engine turning when it has been redone. The offset is best described if you envision horizontal lines across the dash panel and the center point of the turning is done on those horizontal lines. The offset is when the center of the turning on the adjacent (upper) row is not placed directly over the center of the turning directly below or above the row you are working on. Buick as far as I can see used an offset of one radius. This created a diagonal pattern of center points from each turning. With limitations on photos please see several posts for the examples noted above. The pattern below is when working top down with the turning and with an offset equal to the radius of the turn. Buick engine turning was from the bottom up and used a one-radius offset. To see an example of top down vs bottom up, just flip this picture: The following picture is of a slight offset which gives the appearance of a slightly left slant. The center of each turning is placed almost directly below the turning positioned above. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgreen Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 Here is an original 1940 glove box door with the one-radius offset between horizontal rows. In this pattern you can also see the turning starts at the bottom then the next row is moved up to the next horizontal line that is spaced one-radius length up. The next row is then turned one-radius length to the left creating an alternating pattern. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgreen Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 Here is a 1940 radio bezel with the turning from bottom up and with the center point of the turning one radius up and one radius to the left for successive rows. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgreen Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 Here's the glove box door from the 76C currently undergoing restoration. It is not likely this glove box door was ever restored as the brown paint and some of the factory decals were still located on the back side. It is possible, however, but I would also wonder if a second restoration could have deteriorated this much. I notice the engine turning is offset by one radius on alternating horizontal rows. How do you like the clock? It definitely looks like quitting time was 5:00 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgreen Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 This is the instrument panel from the 1940 series 51. I'm betting this was restored primarily because of the inaccurate and nonuniform offset to the turning pattern. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 Is this aspect of engine turned dash configuration considered for points judging at Buick shows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgreen Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 On 7/5/2018 at 7:52 AM, Podster said: I had mine done by Doug Seybold about eighteen years ago and they look as good as the day i received them back. I also visited his shop about ten years ago and left confident that he is by far the person to go to pertaining to 1940 and 1941 Buicks. But his work is expensive. Can you share pictures of your dash? I'm in the process of getting mine done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allcars Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 Excellent analysis from Ken Green, as usual! Photo below from the 1940 Buick full-line brochure showing the instrument panel... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 That's definitely some good evidence of what's factory correct right there, bgosh! Thanx 4 posting that! The burl and the panels are just stunning! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenneth Carr Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 I spoke with Doug Seybold when I stopped at his booth (I think last year) at Hershey. He told me that it took him a long time to develop his technique. He claimed that the originals were a decal. I asked him about the green tint that I see on many originals. I thought that it was due to a lacquer overcoat. He said that the green is a result of degradation of the chemicals in the decal over a very long time; thus, it is not proper to tint a restored item green. For reference I have attached a photo of my 1941 Buick glove box door. This is a used replacement part I bought many years ago. I am pretty sure it is fully original. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil morse Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 This post from the other thread I mentioned has this interesting information about the tinting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuickTom87 Posted August 2, 2022 Share Posted August 2, 2022 This is very informative, I’m glad to have come across this . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now