1956 Buick Starter Issue

[Beemon]

I was leaving my neighborhood today and the car suddenly died on me. It was hot, so I thought it was a fuel thing and immediately started it back up. The starter did not disengage after I turned off the ignition switch and I didn't have a wrench on me to disconnect the battery. I tried to get it to stop but it shut the engine down itself. I ended up having to tow the car home. When I got home, I tried to jump the black wire from the starter with 12v+, but nothing engaged the starter. It clicked once but that was it. I opened the starter relay and saw this:

 

The points were welded together and when I tried the separate them, the metal tab flaked apart. So now I'm on the hunt for a new relay, but is my starter solenoid fried, too? I should be able to engage the starter by connecting the 12v+ connector from the relay to the connector on the black starter wire, correct?

[EmTee]

Yes, that's right; you should be able to jump 12V to the S terminal on the solenoid.  I'd be surprised if the starter or solenoid were damaged by the relay issue.  At most I suspect the starter drive's life has been shortened somewhat as the overrunning clutch took the brunt of the abuse...

[old-tank]

The starter gears may still be engaged in the flywheel.  Try to rock the engine or remove the starter to verify.

Bob's Automobilia.  Carquest 56-1694 is the same...for replacement.

Willie

[Beemon]

Willie, 

 

I found several threads with that part number. Unfortunately CarQuest is now Advance Auto and that part number is obsolete. I'll contact Bob's after the NOS shop here locally turns up negative. 

 

I took the black wire and touched it to the battery junction block on the firewall and it just made one click so I think the solenoid is still ok. I'm in the process of removing now. The starter was stuck to the flywheel. I put a socket on the balancer and gave it a shove and the starter disengaged. I jumped the 12V+ terminal on the bendix to the armature terminal and it did not spin up so I'm positive something is now fried in the armature... battery checks out ok, 12.6V.

Edited August 5, 2016 by Beemon (see edit history)

[Beemon]

So I found out why the starter wouldn't engage:

 

 

It just killed the armature. I'm trying the local yards, but all the cars are grounded, making removal difficult. I'm going to be looking for any 322 starter, correct? Will other GM starters work? So far what I have is 1954-56 Buick and 1956-59 Chevy truck with 322.

Edited August 5, 2016 by Beemon (see edit history)

[Ttotired]

I found that the starter for an "International" was almost exact, you need to use your nose cone anr the bolt hole to hold the starter cabling is not in the field housing

This should be the one, but its not showing me a picture, but its almost identical, its really just the flange diameter thats different

http://www.buyautopartsonline.ca/catalog-1/itemdetail/dixie-electric/s-1042

 

 

[old-tank]

 Ouch!

Your local starter/alternator place can rebuild it.

Mini starters are available.

[EmTee]

Yikes -- that obviously turned out much worse than I imagined...

[NTX5467]

46 minutes ago, old-tank said:

 Ouch!

 

Mini starters are available.

 

The "sound" of a mini-starter gear drive coming from a '50s Buick might lead some to suspect an LS-family motor was attached to it?  But at least it would be an upgrade that many "modern" shops might be able to deal with?

 

When I saw those pictures of the starter's innards, I thought about Humpdy Dumpty . . .

 

Please keep us posted on your progress!

 

NTX5467

[NTX5467]

If the earlier AC-Delco starters are like the 1970s versions, the main section was somewhat common.  On the later ones, the main difference was the length of the main housing and armature.  What made them "application specific" was the "nose piece" itself.  If it had a round copper spacer between the tab through the case and the solenoid, it was the "hd" version.  The "normal" version didn't need the copper spacer.

 

In the earlier times, there were probably about 30 difference nose cones for Chevy starters!   That was before the different flywheel diameters added a few additional ones in the middle 1980s.  Not only did these pieces serve as the mounting flanges, but they also had to clear the inner contours of bell housings and automatic transmission cases as they mounted to the engine.  In later years, the "common" end housing is more flattened in shape.

 

AC-Delco also built electronics (starters and alternators) for many smaller manufacturers.  Some might have had some of their own application-specific customization items.  When we were an AMC-Jeep-Renault dealer in the earlier 1980s, it was interesting seeing the blended mix of AC-Delco, Motorcraft, and PrestoLite ignition and vehicle electronic items for the AMC vehicles.

 

NTX5467

[Beemon]

I hadn't thought about a mini starter, but my experience with this car thus far is "don't buy made in China parts for a car that was not made in China" and "keep it stock". Except, it's really hard to do both of those things when 60 year old NOS parts are pretty rare unless it's generic, covers many years or is a tri-five Chevrolet. As I've found out, Willie's part number is now obsolete (at least I couldn't find it), was the same relay as mine, and was made outside the border. I'm just curious what happens when there's nothing left? Bob's is the same as mine and he's the only supplier that had it. 

 

Although unrelated, it just reminds me that I took the alternator I installed off after a few days to put back on the generator, and the "new style" master cylinder I removed in favor of the original unit. This has prompted me to remove the dual quad intake. I'm not sure what really tripped the starter relay but my guess is lower than normal vacuum through the carb throat, causing the check ball to not float into the catch chamber.  It could also be because it was made extremely thin as a result of cheap manufacturing in what I can only assume to be Mexico or equivalent. I didn't have this issue before, though. 

 

I always never think to just strip the almost complete 56 Buick at the junkyard I frequent. Next time I go I'll be pulling the starter for sure and the relays off the firewall. How often were these units replaced? I wish I had my originals. When I had my starter/generator rebuilt, they didn't touch the armatures because they were still good so hoping for the best. I recently just pulled the distributor out of that Buick because the dizzy rebuilder couldn't tell me if they recurved mine or not, despite no advancement until around 600rpm. Even though the breaker plate was caked in rust, the advance springs and weights were in pristine condition underneath still covered in grease. It's the same Buick I got my NOS power steering pump from. Lol

 

The local NOS shop turned up blank between the relay and the starter, even though their inventory goes back to the teens. 

 

My father always told me his family was cursed with the natural born loser curse. Today was going to be my first car show. A local guy at my NAPA encouraged me to stop by an every Friday night cruis in to get to know the local restorers and hot rodders so I can get in the know on shops and people. Oh well, maybe next week!

 

Thanks for the replies! 

 

[carbking]

Try the folks at "Then and Now Automotive" in the Boston area. They may not have a starter, but they might; and I would bet they have the relay. They have tons of electrical stuff, and they are honest folks.

 

781-335-8860 is their shop number.

 

Jon.

[buick5563]

If worse comes to worst, I have a starter or two here. Shipping is a beast, though. 

[buick5563]

Oh, and I am running a mini starter on my wagon that was built in America.

[NTX5467]

4 hours ago, buick5563 said:

Oh, and I am running a mini starter on my wagon that was built in America.

 

Sources??  PM if needed.  Just curious.

[buick5563]

Buickrodder Russ Martin sold me one with an American flag on it.

[old-tank]

ARMATURE

Same part number as 55 Buick.  Local rebuilder can surely get one if you choose not to buy and rebuild yourself.

[Beemon]

Thanks for the link! Unfortunately, the only thing still good in my case is the field windings and two out of the for brush mounts. Monday I have a lead on another starter, so I'll see how that turns out for me before I start ordering parts online. 

[d2_willys]

If you need a starter relay, why not just find a four or five pin modern relay and wire it accordingly. The relay doesn't need to be a heavy current type, as the solenoid does most of the work. But it must be one that has isolated coil contacts for the accelerator start stuff. You probably can stuff it into the old relay's case for originality look.

Edited August 8, 2016 by d2_willys
additional info (see edit history)

[Beemon]

What is the consensus on starters? My original one was black with a cast nose and what seemed to be plated end cover with the body painted black. This one I pulled is cast nose but the body and end piece are both painted Buick green. I don't think it's over spray because the whole case is green.  I'm going to reuse my old nose and end piece because the bushings are still good but the internals of the core I pulled are in such good shape the plastic on the field pads are still a transparent red. 

Edited August 9, 2016 by Beemon (see edit history)

[Ttotired]

Cant advise what I cant see

 

 

[JohnD1956]

I'd say the all green one is original equipment.  Your black one was previously rebuilt or re conditioned.

[NTX5467]

I kind of like the idea of it being "engine color", but if It was on the block when the engine was painted, they would have had to take a few extra "pains" to get paint between the starter and the block.  Plus, they would have had to have some covering on the electrical terminals and such, when the painting was done.  As much as the engine plant people might have wanted things to "look good", I somewhat doubt their build instructions would have had the starter on the motor when it was painted.  That would be easier with fewer "labor operations" at the engine plant.  Certainly, the starter would have been on the engine when the engine went through its various activities as "an engine" at the plant (initial start and run-in, hot check, etc.)  But unless there's another compelling reason I might not be aware of, I'd suspect the "black/cast iron" would be the "as it came from the AC-Delco plant" color scheme for the starter.  Just my gut suspicion.

 

On many non-Buick "industrial" engines I've seen, obviously the complete assembly was painted "engine color", obviously after it all was assembled.  In those applications, the paint could have been part of the "sealing" of the engine to help keep dirt and moisture from getting in?

 

A side issue might be that EACH ounce of paint used on the engine, as well as oils and lubes, are specifically called-out in the line Assembly Manual.  This is important in the cost/pricing of the vehicle when it gets to the end of the assembly line.  Engine paint is more of an anti-rust issue, although cosmetics are important, too.  In that orientation, no engine paint on the starter.

 

Your judgment call . . . on whether to leave it "green" or not. 

 

NTX5467

Edited August 10, 2016 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[NTX5467]

As a side note . . . when I was hanging around gas station service bays (seeing what was in there as our gas tank was filled, underhood checks were done, etc.), I'd look around to see what was going on (and why, sometimes).  In the case of GM vehicles, moreso than others, a particular part would be having an issue.  Of course, using OEM was too expensive, so Moog and other name brands of parts locally-available were the desired replacement items.  Of ocurse, the aftermarket item was usually less expensive than the OEM item being replaced, BUT looked stronger and more substantial.  The local mechanics knew where "the good stuff was" and typically didn't get another OEM part (that had just failed).  It was THEIR judgment that was on the line and THEY would be the ones who'd have to fix it again if and when that one failed.  It was common to lament "If they'd spent another dime on that part, to make it better, this would not have happened this soon".

 

To an owner, that extra dime (at the OEM level) was not much, but when you consider how many "dimes" could be saved, those dimes become $$$$$ really quickly (at the OEM level).  Therefore, what would be insignificant and a good investment to us (the customer), would become quite costly in increased operating/material/labor costs to the manufacturer.  Just depends on where those dimes fall!

 

NTX5467

[Beemon]

My starter is the original, the numbers in the casing match the one I pulled. It did happen to be over spray since the Buick green was on the tag after I scrubbed the grime off. I've decided to paint it black so it contrasts the engine like the generator and power steering pump. 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2016 by Beemon (see edit history)

[Beemon]

Before I get too far, should these teeth be replaced on the starter? I can pull the thrust collar off no problem, but I'd rather not put a made in Mexico Bendix on there. My other one had to be replaced, it was just too far gone. Everything I've seen online, from NOS Bendix pinion gears to original cores like this one all have similar teeth wear or cut patterns. Also like the one I pulled and the one I linked, it seems the back plate is some type of plating as I believe I stated before. The solenoid spring and lever arm also seem to be cad, as well as the screws, while the solenoid is black. In this case I don't think I'll end up painting the solenoid from my original starter, but I I'll probably clean up the solenoid brackets and paint the hold down screws and back plate the same silver I painted my fan spacer and pulleys.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Beemon (see edit history)

[EmTee]

The gear may be OK with a little cleanup (e.g., 320/400 w/d sandpaper), but my concern would be what the clutch internals look like given the outer appearance.  Worst-case would be you install it and the clutch begins to intermittently 'spin' as old, dry grease/dirt loosens-up.  (That also ignores the number of cycles the drive saw before it went into hibernation.)  While I agree that the quality of new replacement parts varies widely - it may be the lesser of two evils in this case...

[Ttotired]

Most of the delco starter parts are/were made in Mexico or Canada, at least the ones I have seen/used for 30 years of rebuilding this stuff.

Dont know why you have chosen the s/h route, but good luck, at least therye not to hard to get back out if it dont work

 

 

[Beemon]

Don't buy the NAPA repair kit for these 50's starters, the Bendix is about an inch too short.

 

I got in touch with the local rebuilder today, the one who supplied me with the Bendix on the right from my original rebuild. I'll have a brand new one to pick up tomorrow, which is great because I was planning on re-assembly tomorrow anyways.

 

Also digging through a parts catalog, I found a heavy duty accessory relay that is an exact replacement for the old starter relay, according to part interchange. The only difference is outwards appearance and the battery terminal being fused. My horn relay looks kind of like this, so I'm not too concerned with originality, but the fuse is a definite plus. Next time the points ever arc, it can burn the fuse and not my starter. The part number through NAPA is ECH HR201.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Beemon (see edit history)

[Ttotired]

Sorry to rain on your parade, but that fuse wont prevent it happening again I'm afraid, those contacts in your original relay blew apart after the starter carnage happened. If it happened again, the fuse would save the relay and the wiring .

 

On that subject, you need to check your ignition/starter switch system, it is possible for the contacts in the relay to get stuck, but its also much more common for starter switches to fail

 

 

[Beemon]

 

I went back down to the original rebuilder and asked him about where he got a replacement Bendix starter gear. He fortunately hooked me up with a brand new one, although he cleared the original Delco-Remy as working just fine. After that, it was just  a matter of replacing brushes, getting the snap ring off the armature and re-installing.

 

I started by putting a socket over the thrust colar and lightly tapping with a hammer. It fell off in one punch. I then used my channel locks on the open end of the snap ring and the top of the armature. I just closed the jaws to pry the snap ring out of the groove. Once starter, I pushed the rest out with a flat head screw driver and then it was a matter of pulling the ring up over the shaft. Pull the old Bendix off and put the new one on. I also applied liberal amounts of WD-40 white lithium grease to the shaft and pinion bushing. After the Bendix drive is on, just slide the thrust collar down the shaft. Per the shop manual, I put the snap ring over the shaft and used a block of wood to hammer it down to get it started (the rebuilder said using the snap ring again would be ok because it's fastened by the thrust collar). Simply slide it down the shaft and back into the groove. When re-installing the thrust collar, I used the channel locks again and just worked it up over the snap ring, seating it firmly in the groove. I don't know the name of it, but don't forget the bushing stop guy that slides on over the thrust collar. I installed the nose cone next, again putting grease in the bushing area. The armature just simply sits in the bushing. About the hardest part was putting the actual casing on, where you have to move the brushes against spring tension to get them over the commutator. Once that was on, find the pilot hole on the nose cone and push flush. The end cap aligns with the rubber boot for the solenoid switch. It simply pushes on. Screw in the case screws and you're done. Attach the solenoid to the case by first inserting the plunger, then the armature connector and then fasten with the four screws. Push boot over the opening and you're done.

 

There was one spot I missed with paint by the service tag, but I since went in and used a blush to clean up. I wish I could get the overspray off without removing the red on the tag but I guess it opens up discussion for the history of the starter Paint turned out pretty good, too. I didn't paint the part of the nose cone that goes through the block, just behind it and the color is pretty close. I also don't know/can't afford a cad plater so I painted the end cap and screws/hardware (springs, arm) with a cast aluminum paint can, the same stuff I used on my pulleys. I think it looks really good. This is what I would imagine a NOS model to look like, except maybe with zinc plated screws and hardware instead of cad but I can't really complain.

 

The switch relay also works great, too. I thought it was defective at first but the fuse that came with it was shot so I replaced it with a 20A fuse and it fired right up. I had to bend the base a bit to clear the vacuum canister because having it the other way put the ground and solenoid prongs on the wrong side. Also thanks Ttotried, you're right about the fuse. My mistake, I misinterpreted it's function, I was just excited to have found a replacement.

 

All in all a very unique experience for me. I think this is half the fun of restoring cars, not that I'm asking for everything to fall apart again... lol I think my next task will be to tear down the generator so I can paint it the way I want and to check the brushes. The rebuilder just painted over it with black spray and I've seen NOS and junkyard generators with cad or cast mounting arms.

 

Hopefully this starter will last me a long time! Thanks all for comments!

[Beemon]

Just wanted to give an update - if you're ever going to try the NAPA relay HR201, then make sure you use a 25 amp fuse instead of a 20 amp fuse. The shop manual says the starter solenoid requires 18-20 amps to start the car on a cold start. We finally had a cold morning with dew on the grass yesterday so I went to start the car and it spun over for a few seconds and then stopped. My heart sank because I really thought I messed the starter up until I pulled the fuse on the relay and saw it had exploded. A 25 amp fuse cured the condition. After a month or two I'll dig this thread up again with another follow-up but thought I'd share just in case someone else has a relay failure and can't find one of the rare, original relays.