322 Heads - need a little advice

[MrEarl]

Pulled a set of heads off a '56 322 the other day for a friend. I have pulled and sold heads before and typically just clean the grease from the tops, look them over good and send them out, never had a problem.  This time though the engine I pulled from had sat for a time with no carb on it and the domes of the pistons and the bottom of the heads had more rust than I usually saw. Two cylinders actually had water in them.  So I set about REALLY cleaning them up in order to  ascertain for sure that they were good. I've got about 10-12 hours into pulling, cleaning and taking to my mechanic for his opinion so they either need to go or I eat cast iron for dinner tonight. My mechanic was super busy both times I dropped in and all I could get out of him is that they look good enough for a machine shop to work with which I knew that already. Before I tell my friend that I am not comfortable selling them to him though,  thought I would run their condition by you nailheaders and see if you can help. IOW I'd rather eat cast iron than sell a friend something they can't use. 

The rockers and springs look to be good and the bottom surface looks good. It appears one of the valve heads had popped off but didn't really do any serious damage to the head or it's piston.  After not being able to see the valve seats good with the valves in I made a valve spring compressor and pulled all the valves. One of the valves was stuck in the guide and the guide came out with the valve. Other than that I "think" the valve seats cleaned up pretty good with a fine wire brush. But that is my concern. I have no idea what is good enough for a simple valve replacement job or what would require more work like grinding or what?

 

So here hopefully are enough pictures to get some opinion of what I have. Please feel free to edumucate on the whole deal of heads and rockers and valves etc as I would really like to be able to know what to look for in the future. Thanks guys!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[old-tank]

They will probably be fine as long as they pass the pressure test at the machine shop.  The pictures are good enough for your friend to take to his machinist for evaluation.

[Bhigdog]

As long as there are no cracks I believe there is enough left for the seats to clean up. I would accept them knowing that they would require complete head/guide work and not thinking they were good to go as is...............Bob

[Ttotired]

About as bad as the heads on my 364, except, the guides are ok on mine

Its going to need a pretty full on fix, as in guides and valves, seats need to be re cut as there is to much pitting to just "lap in"

Springs should be checked (I basically just line them up and make sure they are all the same height, not a proper test, but its done me ok so far)

The last pic is the temp gauge bulb stuck, I was able to get mine out by punching out the core plug at the end of the head and pushing it up with a screw driver (saved the gauge)

Going by ebay prices, not cheap to fix, but not junk

 

Mick

[NTX5467]

I concur with the above comments.  KEY thing is that whomever the heads end up with KNOW they've bought "rebuildable cores" rather than something that can be used "as is" (and expect them to really work well "as is").  It will ALSO need a machine shop that knows the "brand-specific" designs and orientations of Nailhead Buick cylinder heads rather than try to treat them as "generic" cylinder heads (in some cases they can be "generic", in other cases "brand-specific").

 

Remember, too, that the era those heads were designed in used "replaceable valve guides" rather than the later "as cast" "integral" valve guides.  Easier for a REAL shadetree mechanic or mechanic shop to knock in a new valve guide, lap in the valve seat, and put a new valve in the new guide rather than chuck-up the head in a fixture and machine the existing valve guide.

 

As the valve seat/water jacket interface on the Nailheads seems to be "tighter" than on other brands of cylinder heads, how much "valve seat recession" might be present can be important.  One reason the great pictures can assist the ultimate purchaser's consultation with a competent machine shop who knows what they are looking at.

 

NTX5467 

[MrEarl]

Thanks everybody for your input. Learned a little about heads. Sounds like everybody was on the same page about condition. After viewing the pictures, the prospective buyers machinist had this to say " they appear good rebuildable cores and that some concerns are some of the seats varying in width and some having a second ridge down inside of them - would need more than just resurfacing" So given that, they were more of an investment than he was comfortable with. And I am cool with that.

Thanks again guys

[MrEarl]

Still simply trying to learn something here. Firstly, I dispute not that these are "rebuildable cores" but I'm trying to figure out what the machinist is describing as " seats varying in width and some having a second ridge down inside of them" .  Could the varying width just be the distortion in the picture of the way the picture was taken. Or perhaps if they do vary, were they possibly already reground at one time or?  And is the second ridge not just the joint of the valve seat and head or are my old eyes missing something. Again, excuse my ignorance, just trying to learn.

Edited May 13, 2016 by MrEarl
Bold emphasis on not (see edit history)

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Two guys need to see the heads. Pics any way. Russ Martin in California and Tom Telesco in Mass. 

 

  Ben

[JohnD1956]

I am no expert on this type of thing but I think the machinist is wrong.  Looking at this picture, I notice the valves appear to sit unevenly.

 

 

And looking at any one of your combustion chamber pictures, this one for instance,

 

 

It appears to me that the 2nd ridge is a buildup of carbon deposits, and the uneven seats can be lap ground just to start with.  The burnt valves, and excessive carbon buildup in the initial photos tells me that this car was driven on cheap gas and borrowed time.  The years of inactivity were probably no help.  But I'm also sure the machinist did not want someone blaming him for a lousy job ( or perhaps being held responsible for a subsequent breakdown and repair) and apparently everyone just replaces seats in other engines anyway, so why not just do it to these too?

 

If you wanted to prep these for sale again, you could try lap compounding the seats. If they are bad nothing will be lost. 

[MrEarl]

17 hours ago, First Born said:

Two guys need to see the heads. Pics any way. Russ Martin in California and Tom Telesco in Mass. 

 

  Ben

 

6 hours ago, JohnD1956 said:

I am no expert on this type of thing but I think the machinist is wrong.  Looking at this picture, I notice the valves appear to sit unevenly.

 

 

And looking at any one of your combustion chamber pictures, this one for instance,

 

 

It appears to me that the 2nd ridge is a buildup of carbon deposits, and the uneven seats can be lap ground just to start with.  The burnt valves, and excessive carbon buildup in the initial photos tells me that this car was driven on cheap gas and borrowed time.  The years of inactivity were probably no help.  But I'm also sure the machinist did not want someone blaming him for a lousy job ( or perhaps being held responsible for a subsequent breakdown and repair) and apparently everyone just replaces seats in other engines anyway, so why not just do it to these too?

 

If you wanted to prep these for sale again, you could try lap compounding the seats. If they are bad nothing will be lost. 

Quote

If you wanted to prep these for sale again, you could try lap compounding the seats. If they are bad nothing will be lost. 

 

No chance of that JD, I am sick of looking at and lifting the heavy muthas. The Century these came off of had AC, power windows,  but no power steering or brakes, go figure.  Last tagged in '79 and had Fort Benning stickers on it. I doubt it had ever had a valve job. 

 

I think the biggest thing I've learned here is pictures, no matter how many,  can't tell the whole story when it comes to evaluating heads. I've sold several sets over the years and never pulled them apart and went to the extreme as I did on these to ensure the buyer knew what they were getting. Never had an unhappy buyer in the past. Can't blame this potential buyer for listening to his mechanic though.

If no bites here, I'll  put them on eBay. Russ has bought a few parts from me off eBay, maybe he'll buy these then we'll see what he thinks about them ;-)

 

Just one more question, has anybody ever seen a cracked 322 head?

 

 

 

[NTX5467]

To me, when a machinist talks about the "width", they're talking about the "width of the cuts of the seat".  In other words, EACH of the angles used to cut the seats need to be a particular width.  That he noted that they were NOT could mean "valve seat recession", although these Buick heads are supposed to be just fine with unleaded fuel.  Valve seat recession would also manifest itself in how much of the valve stem was sticking up past the top of the valve guide.  OR they'd been apart for a valve job at some point in time and the stone used to grind the seat was of the wrong angle OR worn to a wrong angle (from use and needing to be "dressed").  I don't believe it's the fault of the pictures, but then until somebody looks at the "in the cast iron", who knows what they are looking at, it's all "discussionable".

 

The "ridge" visible in the  (under the valve seat, in the end of the intake port) could be from the main casting itself and/or augmented somewhat by deposits.  Only real way would be to vat the heads or try to knock it out with a punch-type instrument.

 

Right now, you've got two cast iron castings "with hardware", which possibly can be made into two like-new cylinder head assemblies.  Might need to invest in getting them vatted and crack checked to give the potential customer possibly a little more confidence in their possible purchase?

 

NTX5467

[60FlatTop]

"When in doubt throw 'em out." There are a few Destroyer parts at the bottom of the Cooper River in Charleston, SC to testify to that.

 

If I needed at set and had those I would get the two worst seats ground and see how much more the valve stem stuck up than the best uncut one. I wouldn't want to see much difference, maybe 0.010 or 0.030 tops.

 

I'm not sure about eating them, cast ain't bringing much; maybe the lunch special for one at a China Buffet, only with the senior discount.

 

Oh, on that last thought, a Harbor Freight store is opening at the other end of town right next to the China Buffet

Bernie