1918 fiat touring car

[truth]

could anyone help me find info or value of a 1918 fiat touring car please?  im striking out on my own   there seems to be none i think its a e-17 touring series made in poukipsee ny 

 

http://forums.aaca.org/gallery/image/36240-dscn05911/

Here is a link to the pictures

Edited October 29, 2015 by truth (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

We'd need a lot more information than you are furnishing and pictures as well. Have you actually seen this car? The American-built FIAT was a big, expensive car. The E-17 was the Tipo 55. It would be a very difficult car to value, if only because there are so few of them but all of the big, expensive cars of the period are desirable. Condition and completeness are essential as there are no spare parts floating around. If you want to restore one, you'd better own a machine shop.

[edinmass]

Post some photos, and I am sure you can get some ballpark ideas for price. There are very few of them left. A 1918 year will reduce the value considerably compared to 1915 or earlier.

[Ivan Saxton]

I had most of an engine of a Tipo 5, which was a 9 litre displacement 4 cylinder side valve job. The car it came from originally belonged to General Grimwade. The engine was used for many years to drive a hardwood sawmill at a small town called Longwarry, about 20 miles from here. It had a de-compress control so it could be started with the Armstrong starter, and it required very strong arms for that. I traded it to Paul Freehill. who aspired to build or rebuild and own one: Parts must have been a bit scarce even 30 years ago, because he traded it to someone at Tom's River NJ, or similar address.

Recently I discovered that I had the front axle which probably came from the same car. I got it from the remains of a dairy farmer's calf trailer, on a small farm about 3 miles from where I live. I dwarfs the parts of the little 1.8 litre Tipo Zero FIATs which I have. It is only recently that I discovered it was American built. The name "Park" is forged on the main axle beam, which shows it was a sub-contract item supplied to

FIAT by Park Forge. If anyone has a really big early FIAT which lacks a front axle, I can help.

[truth]

ill work on the pictures  as far as more info  it ran 10 yrs ago then put in storage   in fact its been stored for 60 yrs    unrestored    looks like complete but missing bumpers[ if there are any ] I cant find any pictures on the web    has the 4 vertical air cylinder shocks that are very visible about 16 inches high 5 inch dia on the 4 corners of the vehicle     canopy is there but not on vehicle    right side of block at rear has 07  16  18     a stamp on the right side of body  that says turin  and poughkipsee      the running boards are missing and im wondering if they were wood?  there is no door at rght hand steering wheel im thinking maybe the spare tire mounted there? [ the driver would apparantly get in left side and slide over to get at a steering wheel] its grey w red fenders    looks to be an aluminum body cause I don't see any rust   looks like 4 cylinder motor w 8 spark plugs [4 on top -4 on rght side]  some seats store in the back of the front seat   wood spoke wheels 35x5    I think its a 140 inch wheelbase I need to confirm that though   fiat is formed on left side of block   the hood only has 2 slots on the rgt side and 2 on the left where air would flow through   usually I see more air slots on other vehicles     the windshield is 2 part  both parts swivel open and close one on top one lower the car  is all open    no roof only the canopy which when on the vehicle seems like the sides are still open   does anyone even know if there are any pictures of this vehicle?

[Restorer32]

Maybe 30 years ago there was a monstrous FIAT touring car in Fall River, Mass. I can't seem to remember the owner's name. He also had a '32 Packard. The FIAT shook the house when he fired it up.

[nzcarnerd]

This 1914 car   -  https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6229/6210019488_f22543d745_b.jpg   - is, I think, the same car that visited New Zealand about 25 years ago.  I remember it had an auxiliary radiator mounted under the chassis and you can see the pipes in the picture. 

 

Like any car it is worth what someone is prepared to pay for it.  Once restored it would be a high end car.  There can't be many survivors.  There are not many cars with a 9 litre engine.

 

I am a little puzzled about the extra plugs on the side of the block you mentioned.  I guess when you post pictures all will be revealed.

[truth]

Have posted 8 pictures on gallery. Would appreciate feedback.

[1912Staver]

Your Fiat looks like a great starting point. Value is going to be a tough one. It's a bit too new to be really pricy. And it is going to be a pretty big project. Probably in the same ballpark as a similar condition Pierce, Locomobile , Cadillac etc. A European Fiat fan might be willing to pay more than someone in North America.

 

Greg in Canada

[Rusty_OToole]

A lot of expensive cars had dual ignition in those days. Trembler coil like a Model T for easy starting, magneto for high speed running. You started on Battery and switched to Magneto. Made it easier to start giant engines with no electric start. Sometimes they would start without touching the crank. You had to charge the cylinders with gas thru the priming cups then advance the spark, it was more likely to work when the engine was hot but sometimes it worked when cold.

[JV Puleo]

What a fabulous car. I'd be all over it if I had the chance (or the money). I think the suggestion that you estimate a value based on other similar big expensive cars of the period is sound. It is rare, but it is problematical if that, in itself, means anything. It is so rare that it isn't "desirable" in the way well known cars can be. It would certainly be expensive to have restored... but it looks to me as if it could be gently cleaned and "recommissioned" as the European collectors often say. A great deal depends on what you can do yourself. If you are thinking of a checkbook restoration, then it is a black hole.

Edited October 25, 2015 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Can you put a link up to get to the photos?

[JV Puleo]

If you go to the top of this page and click on "gallery" they are the first set of photos that come up.

[8E45E]

Here is a 1918 US assembled Fiat in the old Harrah's Museum in Reno (post #14):  http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?65049-1940-American-Automobiles

 

Craig

[Ivan Saxton]

With an L-head 4 cylinder of around 9 litres displacement, which is about half a gallon of fuel/air mixture per cylinder to burn on probably 4 to1 compression ratio, that makes a lot of micro-seconds for flame front travel. Two spark plugs per cylinder might help if their positioning was suitable. This was before Rickardo's "Turbulence" combustion chamber design patent, which made L-heads more economical and powerful, and able to run a much higher compression ratio without detonation. No-one knew at the time, but Isotta Fraschini's 1907 8 litre 4 cyl T-head Tipo1 Corsa 80hp carshad domed pistons that nearly touched the chamber roof, becoming in effect a double-sided Rickardo L head which constituted "prior art" which maybe should have invalidated the patent. In one of those cars, Minoia won the 1907 Coppa Florio at nearly 70mph average. Over 302 miles the average fuel consumption was 15 miles per gallon!!!! You may be able to achieve similar economy in a big L-head like this one by clever piston crown design.

It is very likely that Finley Robertson Porter realised why those three Tipo 1 Corsa Isattas performed so well in 1908 at Savannah and the Briarcliff Trophy. When I visited Ralph Buckley after the Glidden Tour in 1980, he told me that his T-head Mercer Raceabout had such domed pistons and a 6 to 1 compression ratio, and you should not run at low revs in top gear with a wide open throttle.

[nzcarnerd]

Here is a 1918 US assembled Fiat in the old Harrah's Museum in Reno (post #14):  http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?65049-1940-American-Automobiles

 

Craig

That car is a US-production-only six cylinder model and slightly smaller in displacement than the car in question here which is a big four (130 mm x 170 mm) and was also produced in Europe.

[truth]

i think i have a 1918 fiat but no concrete evidence   i found 1115 stamped on floor boar    does anyone have knowledge of this type stamp to mean nov 1915?  or anyone know where to look for id numbers on old fiat touting cars?  the pic is included

[gavinnz]

Hiya,

The chassis number on the Italian built Fiats of that era were only on the brass chassis plate that was mostly on the dash or the firewall.

That dual ignition system is an American system, it you want to know more about them I have scanned and posted a period book on them for everyone to see.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/59346333@N03/albums/72157630174833670/with/7393409074/

 

Pictures of my 1915 Italian built Fiat are here also...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/59346333@N03/albums/72157629167133050

 

Regards

Gavin

New Zealand

[truth]

There's gotta be a data bank that would tell you what the numbers mean on the name plate. Mine!s on the firewall and its E-7041 and the same number is on the brass running board brackets. I think the number would tell you where the vehicle was built or something about the vehicle. The block has 10-9-18. And the floor boards have 1115. I think it's an E series touring. The wheel base is 140". Anyway, thank you. I will look at the stuff you sent when I can. I appreciate it. I'll send some pictures.

[truth]

well im started on the fiat   see pics   just another way to tumble the gas tank   rebuilding carb [zenith 182 updraft]  rajah spark plugs cleaned up well but i need another if anyone has a brass rajah take apart plug or plugs please let me know   also looking for 2 rear wheel grease hubs that say fiat  i have 2 stearn knight ones if anyone wants to trade?  maybe the wheels on back arent fiat ? can anyone tell me where to find out info on wheels and wheel types?  also needing some firestone rings [i think thats what the rings are that hold on the tire to the wood wheel]  it takes a few of them on each wheel im also looking for some grease caps on the leaf springs     can anyone id the part on the white towel?  it is in the gas line and im thinking filter or water separator   it has a bowl and a drain valve at bottom and a shut off on the intake side  it is accesable by removing a floor board in the car ive appreciated this forum   sure have learned alot  but im thinking there is alot more ahead

 

[Guest]

What a terrific project!

[Ivan Saxton]

I can give you a bit of an idea about FIAT numbers. It is 11.20pm, and I just checked the numbers on two 1914 Tipo Zero cars I have, and a 3.4 litre 6cylinder Tipo 510S, which is a short chassis sporting variant of the Tipo 510, which has a short wheelbase and a sharp pointed radiator of Germanic style.

The chassis number of all three cars is across the right front dumbiron, just below the first rivet. The engine number is on a brass plate on the right side of the crankcase, towards the rear. The engine # plate on the Tipo Zeros shows the engine type is Tipo 51A. The piston displacement of these little 1.8 litre side valve engines is one fifth that of your 9 litre 4 cylinder Tipo 5. The tipo Zero at the Montagu Museum in UK was said to be capable of 50mph and 25 miles per gallon. According to Michael Sedgwick, the third figure of the engine number, and also the chassis number indicate the year. Engine number is Tipo 110 0120528, and the chassis number is 0320571. It is 1922. numbers of the Tipo Zeros are just 4 digits.

It is too late to give you commentary on the mechanicals of your Tipo 5. I'll do so tomorrow.

[truth]

so far i found a brass plate on interior center firewall up high w fiat logo looking and # stamped e-7041 its held on w 4 small nails    these same #s [7041] are on right and left side brass running board brackets   these brackets bolt the rear fenders to running boards   there is a brass plate w patent #s on bottom of front seat base plate on left side   i guess they dont mean anything   the back right side of motor block has 10-9-18 stamped into the cast iron block  there are 2 of these #s that dont look complete like the stamp didnt hit the whole way but im thinking its 10-9-18   its on the rear jug of block   im looking for a chassis # but havent found any yet  if it was a plate near front maybe it was removed?  this car has 4 westinghouse air shocks [2 in rear and 2 on front] that mount near where you may be saying the plate would have been   dont know if they came factory im thinking they were added later cause i seldom see them   i was just at the reno car museum and i saw 1 car had them shocks out of 200 cars  thanks for helping me at such late hrs   happy new yr