Points

[virginian]

Hello Again<BR>It's like i said, I WAS EXCITED as i had been a member of the AACA for 25+ years, but never had entered anything in an event until 1998. boy this was great, why had i waited so long, i had found a new adventure,..... but it wasn't to last. <BR> My bike was even nominated for a National Award, i didn't get it but it was an honor just ot get nominated. when i went for the SENIOR Grand national award i got cut in almost all categories and my bike looked as good as before if not better, everyone who looked at my bike was just as confused as i and any recourse just fell on deaf ears, so i just quit. I had NEW COKER tires (6 months old at the time) that had dry rot cracks and the team Captain said that a deduction would be taken. he also said they couldn't find anything else wrong and it shouldn't hurt. he also stated that some judges deducted and some didn't for the cracked tires. like i said i still felt good about getting a senior but it didn't happen. i might add, my friend has shown his vehicle all the way from the first junior thru senior grand national and many preservations since with cracked(dry rot) COKER tires.

[fordee9r (Ron Springstead)]

WOW!!! Six month old tires with cracks in the sidewalls??? I'd be on the phone to Coker!!! <P>Instead of quitting, did you ask the VP of Class Judging for a report? It would have told you what areas cost you points. As stated in earlier posts, there are many undeserving vehicles receiving Junior and maybe Senior awards. I would think that when you get to the Grand National level that you should not expect an automatic award... the judging should be, and hopefully is, a whole lot tougher to ensure that only deserving vehicles receive such awards. Sounds like you just got mad and went home!

[virginian]

in answer to the first question....yes, second question.... yes. as stated earlier almost all categories were marked. i would think that as a A.G.N.M first prize and being nominated for a national award something must be right. also, and if you think something is incorrect and you won't tell me, there's no reason to show the bike again, but at this point it doesn't matter, i am my own judge now.

[ronbarn]

Virginian, As a judge and who generally judges Class 5, I am saddened that you automatically blame the system because you did not get what you felt you deserved and are not even willing to take a close look at the specific areas marked on you bike to see if something is wrong. However, acting like the kid who provided the football then took it back and went home when he couldn't play quarterback does nothing for you or the hobby.<P>One and two point deductions add up fast when you require a minimum of 390. I recall one case where a Corvette owner made a similar complaint. When asked why he showed such a dirty car expecting to get a Senion GN, he said he did not think it was important since he had won all the previous awards and had been nominated for a National Award. I am not saying that this what happened in your case since I don't know, but the system you now condemn did give you the other awards, so I do not really understand your complaint.

[D Binger]

Ron,<P>Well put.<P>My thoughts on this is the 390 points needed for the senior grand national.<P>Dan

[Guest]

Speaking of Chief Judge. I sent an email to him about 1 week after the Nationals in Sarasota to have a report on any areas of deduction and have yet to receive a response. Do I not get a response since I took a 1st Junior? Also, typically, how long does it take to receive the badge after winning the first junior...?<BR>Thanks! Bart<I>null</I>

[ronbarn]

1. You wil get no response if you send your request to the Chief Judge. The request should go to the AACA Vice President - Class Judging.<BR>2. If you won the award you were going after, you will not get a copy of the form where deductions were made. Only those entries that did not get the award will receive a response.<BR>3. The plaques are running a 4-6 week send time the last I heard.

[Guest]

I actually did send the request to the proper person...<BR>What is the rationale for not sending a report to winning cars? Since the Senior class is more stringent than the Junior, would it not be reasonable to assume that there could be areas that a Junior 1st would potentially need to improve in order to better preserve the vehicle as well as to give the owner the ability to improve areas which could be potential problems in the higher competition level?

[ronbarn]

You are correct regarding the possibility that a vehicle can get just enough points to win a First Junior, but need some work to get a Senior with the higher minimum. However, our experience is that this is not a frequent occurence. We have found in most of these cases that the vehicle should probably have never won a Junior in the first place. This has happened in meets where the weather prevented a thorough judging.<P>The rationale for provided the feedback only to non-winners is simple. When the policy was to respond to all requests the volume was overwhelming. The majority of the requests were from owners of high point vehicles who just wanted verification that they had really fine vehicles. One restorer actually used the responses to assure his customers that their money was well spent. Please remember that the VP Class Judging has a lot of other responsibilities. Thus the policy was changed to providing response only to non-winners.

[fordee9r (Ron Springstead)]

I attended my first judges school in Philly and learned quite a lot! One thing I learned was, at the first meet I ask to judge, I will be assigned to a team as an apprentice with basically nothing to do but tag along and observe the process. <P>How about this for a dumb idea? Why not take an extra copy of the judging scoresheet, put it on a clipboard and give it to an apprentice? In any box where the team captain writes down a number of points deducted, the apprentice could simply make an "X" in the same box on his sheet. The captain's sheet would be turned in for award consideration and the apprentice's sheet would be available to the car owner at the end of the meet. <P>Any interested car owner could pick up his sheet, not have to contact the VP Class Judging and have to wait for a reply by mail. At the same time, the apprentice judge would have something to do besides just tag along. <P>As I said, this could be just a dumb idea but some of my other dumb ideas have already become accepted by the AACA!

[ronbarn]

The apprentice team approach did not get explained very well, apparently. You will be given a judging form and will actually make deductions based on your training up to that point. Three vehicles will be selected for this process - a "rough" one that will probably be a 2nd or 3rd at best, a good one that will probably win a 1st, and an excellent one that will surely win a 1st or may be one going for Senior. They will not necessarily be looked at in that order. All of the apprentices will be judging just one area, i.e. interior, exterior, etc. Since as apprentices, still in the learning process the scores may, or many not be, close to what an experienced team would score the vehicle, may or not help the owner at all that much. The focus of the apprentice team will be to get all of the judges in sync regarding the number of points to be deducted for a given defect. At the first vehicle the spread will typically be quite wide, but by the third vehicle the spread will normally be very small.<P>The idea is good, but once you see the apprentice program in operation, I think you will understand the situation better.

[fordee9r (Ron Springstead)]

Thanks, Ron, for explaining the apprentice concept. I was under the impression that there were only a handful of apprentices at any given meet and were there just to observe. I don't recall being told that I would be working with an actual judging sheet but it wouldn't be the first time I missed something in a lecture! <P>I guess, for now, we'll put this one in the "dumb idea" category! It just seems to me that there must be an easy way to create a second sheet with 'x's every place there's a -1, -3, -5, etc. on the master sheet.

[ronbarn]

Not a "dumb idea" - just not the way the system will work. Also there is the factor that the owner would be suspect of a sheet made by beginner judges. <P>In the "old" days a new judge would be assigned to a working team as an observor. However, the Apprentice Team approach is much more extensive. It includes an off-the-field detailed explanation of the fundamentals of the judging system and on-the-field demonstration of the way AACA vehicles are judged. The normal judging schools must address the needs of a wide variety of judge's experience and often cannot go into the details of the fundamentals. The apprentice program is very popular and for medium to large meet may include as many as 20-30 apprentices.

[Guest]

Question? I have a 55 Pontiac that was stored for 40 years. Should I change the wireing,hoses and such? Or keep it original for the points?

[ronbarn]

Phil, if you are planning to enter the 55 for judging competition, you must understand that AACA judges for authenticity AND condition. Few cars after long periods of storage, even if stored inside, are in very good condition. If you are going for the points, you may need to replace the items you mention. Just be sure that the replacements components are authentic materials and configuration.

[Guest]

I emailed the VP of class judging to find out where I had points deducted. He never responded to my email. Must he only be contacted by snail mail?

[Guest btsave]

Hi!

Just an update... I achieved Senior National Award in 2003 at Orlando, FL on my '71 B and have just completed removal of all dealer options and the car is now 100% factory... down to the rubber floor mats and rebuilt seat belts! Scheduled for it's first preservation award in Melbourne FL next weekend and the AACA Grand Nationals in Buffalo in July. Only concern now is that the paint has more swirls in it than it did orginally due to the amount of polishing required when removing dealer AC in engine bay. Is this a major point deduction? Finish looks showroom, just not concours any longer.

Bart

02/27/2004

[Guest btsave]

Hi!

Just an update... I achieved Senior National Award in 2003 at Orlando, FL on my '71 MGB and have just completed removal of all dealer options and the car is now 100% factory... down to the rubber floor mats and rebuilt seat belts! Scheduled for it's first preservation award in Melbourne FL next weekend and the AACA Grand Nationals in Buffalo in July. Only concern now is that the paint has more swirls in it than it did orginally due to the amount of polishing required when removing dealer AC in engine bay. Is this a major point deduction? Finish looks showroom, just not concours any longer.

Bart

02/27/2004

[Terry Bond]

Sounds like an awesome MG - Im in the midst of restoring one now (early 73 GT). My wife's MG had dealer installed a/c and it was quite a mess - they had to beat the heck out of one inner fender panel to get the compressor to fit in. Hope that wasn't the case w/yours. Not sure what you mean about "swirls." In know the engine compartment is painted body color, but it's not expected it would have the same gloss as the exterior of the car. Difficult to judge it here on the forum-are you near any experienced AACA judges? Perhaps someone could look it over and give you an opinion. It's great to see MG's and you'll be pleased to know that Class 25 has been subdivided into year-divisions. That should encourage more participating. I attend a lot of British car shows and there is plenty of fine machinery there. Now, there is a place for them on the AACA show field as well. Congratulations to the class judging committee for doing that!

Terry

[Rich Niezabitowski]

This is the first that I have heard about the subdivision of Class 25 and all I can say is it is about time. This is always a large class at Hershey and is very difficult to judge (i.e E-types, pre-war MG's and Gullwings all in the same class.) I have been judging for a long time and can safely say that last year at Hershey had more high point cars in Class 25 than I have seen in a single class in a long time. My Healey is in Class 24B, so it doesn't help me, but it is a great thing.

[Terry Bond]

Agree Rich, it's about time this was done. Actually, it's an item that's been in the works for some time, and there was much discussion about how to effectively divide the class. In the long run, consistency seemed to be the deciding factor and the by-year division was deemed to be the most logical approach. It's all brand new and contained in this year's revised judging manual for the first time. I enjoy the sports cars and often volunteer to judge in that category, although my preference is to not end up with Chassis as most of them are just too close to the ground to get a look underneath. And yes, I do practice the "one knee down" judging method. Actually, I've only got one left that bends worth a hoot!

Terry

[Guest]

Well Terry, you're one knee up on me. That's one of the reasons I retired from judging in 2002 after 34 years. I have always felt that when a judge can no longer do the complete job, he or she should hang it up and retire. Unfortunately there are some judges out there who should have stepped down gracefully years ago, but haven't.

Just one OLD former judge's opinion.

hvs

[Ron Dingus]

I recently attended the Annual Grand National Meet in Buffalo, NY. After receiving a 2nd Grand National Award (only 1 car our of 4 in the class got a 1st)I wrote for the "areas" the judging team deducted points for. I received a Jr. Judging sheet with items highlighted to some degree (can't determine on a couple which area was deducted for). Also, "other" is highlighted with NO EXPLANATION at all. How does that help the vehicle owner? The one car that did get a 1st Grand National Award was WAY OVER RESTORED (high gloss paint all over the engine commpartment). I firmly believe that the other cars in the class were judged against this over restored car rather than on their own merits/correctness. I have been told that points should not be deducted for over restoration but why would that vehicle receive a higher score because of it? Over restoration (high gloss paint where there should be semi gloss) is INCORRECT, not over restored!

[ex98thdrill]

Ron,

The judging process doesn't place one car against the other, it places the awards based on points. Every vehicle starts out with 400 points, and points are then deducted for things that are not correct. Over restoration does not create a penalty. If you did not get a first place, it is because you lost in excess of five points from the car that had the highest amount of points. NO ONE takes a judging sheet and decides which car is going to get first place. You will never see a judge look at your vehicle and go back and forth comparing your car to another car in your class.

My dad and I took a second place at Buffalo as well. There is no doubt in my mind that we had the points that were needed to win, but in our case we clearly got blown out of the water by a 400 point vehicle. THAT HAPPENS!! You very well may have had a vehicle worthy of taking the award, but because of the points spread you didn't. The beauty of AACA is that if you go to the same meets as a car that beats you, you will only get beat out by that car once. The next time we bring our woodie to an AGNM, we will not be competing against the same cars that beat us in Buffalo. On the local level, you might show your car and get beat out by the same car every time. In the meantime, try to look over your vehicle and find a way where you can pick up six more points. If you have something that is right about your car, obtain copies of the documentation so that you can't be penalized for points because a judge thinks something is wrong.

....as for the shiny paint. If the paint is the right color and shade, the gloss does not affect the vehicles as far as points deductions. On the flip side, if the paint isn't perfectly shiny, and it is done to factory specs, that too does not create a point deduction.

Win, lose or draw, you made it to the AGNM and you still placed. That is nothing to be ashamed of because you've already achieved something that some people will never be able to do, and there are people out there who would be glad to make it as far as you have with your car.

[Bill Clark]

I've gathered that e-mails requesting judging results just go unanswered. I also noticed that the VP of class judging noted here, Joe, does not match the VP of class judging on the 2004 officers list, Bo. I must have missed where to send my request. So, can someone tell me the name and address to send my request for a judging sheet.

Thanks

Bill Clark

[John M.]

Going back to comments about the subdivision of class 25, it sounds like it was divided according to year. Its been a while but I show a 1932 MG in class 25. What are the years for each subdivision?

Thanks,

John

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Hi, Bill...

Check if the address I post below is the same as the one you used:

Robert J. Croley

718 Kenesaw Avenue

Knoxville, TN 37919

Regards,

Peter J. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Hi, John...

Here's the Class 25 "Sports Vehicles" breakdown of years:

Class 25A - Pre-1960

Class 25B - Sports Vehicles - Open....1961-1969

Class 25C - Sports Vehicles - Closed..1961-1969

Class 25D - Sports Vehicles - Open....1970-1979

Class 25E - Sports Vehicles - Closed..1970-1979

Regards,

Peter J. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Bill Clark]

Thanks for the Address Peter. Now I can ask what I already know. We'll fix it up and try again. See you in Denver in 2005.

Bill

[John M.]

Thanks Peter. Looks like I'm in 25A.

Best Regards,

John

[Guest]

Right on Peter.

This is for everyone else ~ Anyone who sends anything to the prior VP of Judging, Russell Fisher, will certainly not get an answer. Mr. Fisher is no longer a member of the AACA Board, having been defeated for re-election on the last ballot. It was the experience of many that they never got responses from Mr. Fisher even when he WAS on the Board. Elections have a way of taking care of things like that.

I am certain that members with questions will get a response from the current VP of Class Judging, Bo Croley.

I might recommend that a written letter when seeking judging results is preferable, because it allows you to enclose the REQUIRED self addressed stamped envelope. You can't do that with an e-mail. You have no idea of the large number of requests received, and responding to e-mail requests puts an undue burden on the time and postage resources of the VP.

Been there and had to do that.

hvs

[ronbarn]

Howard is absolutely correct with his comments. I have also been there and done that!

At the risk of redundancy, remember DO NOT waste your time or the VP Class Judging's time by sending a request if you won the award you were competing for. If you were going for a First Junior and you won a First Junior, you will not get a reply. Receiving the award should be sufficient validation and making this rule brought the amount of requests down to almost a reasonable level. Please use the system, but don't abuse the system.

[ex98thdrill]

Speaking of Mr Fisher, I send him a request the Monday following the show in Carlisle last year, paid the extra money for next day delivery to and from the Mr. Fisher's house, got it three weeks later, and didn't get it back in the next day deilvery envelope that I sent him with the next day delivery postage paid (about $20 total). This isn't a complaint, because I'd say that he's now out of that position and that's fine by me.

[Guest]

Well, Pat, at least you got some kind of response, eventually. Not many can say that. Oh well, as you said, he's gone, so it really is a non issue now.

hvs

[Hemiragtop]

Hello all.

I will be entering my first AACA National event, trying to get my first junior award. I'm entering my 66 Hemi Belvedere convertible. My question is, will the judges, judging the car be well versed in Mopars only? or will a judge who knows mainly "Fords" as an example be judging my car? My only concern is that, my car was restored to the highest standards using mostly N.O.S and date coded parts, with all the factory overspray, on the exhaust manifolds and other componets. My car was restored to compete at the highest level at all Mopar events. I was just curious if the judges will know whats authentic for my car, assuming they are not Mopar guys? I was also wondering if we can answer questions while they judge the cars?

Thanks in advance,

John Piazza

[ted sweet]

they won't be looking for date codes.

[Ron Green]

Nice car! In my opinion you will find that the specific marque national shows for the most part are tougher then the AACA events. The AACA judges do a excellent job however the marque shows know every part and piece that is correct. Some in my opinion go over the edge like putting you vehicle on a lift for an hour when judging.

[ex98thdrill]

No Ron, we do it before the car gets judged