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Does an owner of a judged vehicle get to see the points scored by that vehicle after the event?? Can you see the areas you did good in, and the areas you did bad in??<P>Steve

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The answer is no! This is one area that I wish AACA would work on, there are some folks that really do not know that there are problems with their cars whether it be workmanship or authenticity. The problems are many fold in actually giving out judging sheets so i respect the decision not to give out points or judging sheets. As i understand it, you can contact the club to get an idea of the areas you need to look at. <p>[This message has been edited by oldscarnut (edited 03-02-2001).]

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If you enter an AACA National Meet and if you do not win the award that you are competing for, you may contact the Vice President - Class Judging to get a copy of the judging sheet which will show where points were deducted, but not the number of points deducted. The local region or chapter will not have this information.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi Ron,<P>Since I consider yourself to be the AACA guru for judging - why not change this policy?<P>All the other venues I am a member of provide the completed judging sheets at some point after the event. NCRS, VCCA to name a few.<P>It sure assists the owner in trying to develop a higher quality car - and it prevents rumors of "what really took place".<BR><P>------------------<BR>bowtieollie<BR>

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Thanx for the kind compliment re my former guruship. While I am still on the judging committee, the current VP Class Judging is Joe Vicini. However, I will offer the following:<P>1. The system works well as is, and I don't think that you will find much interest in changing it to release scores.<P>2. I don't really think it is totally a coincidence that AACA has less trouble maintaining a large cadre of trained judges and the fact that we do not release scores. Many owners take the judges training to learn the system and then decide to continue to be judges.<P>3. The vast majority of owners know the problems with their cars far better than the judges. They don't really need the scores. If they are winning their appropriate awards, their cars must be very good. If they are not then they can find out where deductions are taken - the amount of the deduction is immaterial except for argument.<P>4. Some owners when told where the deductions are taken will still not accept the fact that something is wrong. I had one owner challenge me to find anything wrong with the starter on his Model A and almost literally dragged me to his car to prove how perfect it was. It took only a second to observe the use of shrinkwrap on each wire. His excuse was that was the way the wires were sold to him. Well, that's not the way Ford built them. <P>In short, the only real problem with not revealing scores is that we have to answer this question every once in a while. Sorry if this response disappoints anyone.<P>

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Father Ron ~ The bright beacon of your guruship has not been dimmed by your retirement from the Board.<P>That was one of the most complete and comprehensive explanations of why judging point scores are not given out.<P>Keep those words in a ready file to be repeated everytime someone presses for changing a system that has worked so well for so long.<P>Howard smile.gifsmile.gif

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Perhaps this system is not working as well as we think. Maybe this is one of the reasons that top quality show cars are going to other venues to gain their recognition.<BR>Don't get me wrong, I am an AACA member with a senior car and I will continue to show at AACA meets. But last year I took it to a Late Great Chevy Convention where I received 980 out of 1000 points. When I got the judging sheets in the mail, I could compare where the deductions were made and compare to the weakness's that I knew the car had. At AACA all I know is that my car scored a minimum of 375.<P>Also, They have a good way of insuring that they have plenty of judges. If you want your car judged, you must be a judge or pay a $25.00 judging fee. Believe me, almost everybody judged.<P>This is just my 2 cents worth, I am not saying the system is broken, but it might need a tuneup.<P>------------------<BR>Ron & Judy<BR>2 1960 Impalas<BR>http://www.anglefire.com/pa3/impala

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OK r&j, so you got a 980 score at the Chev. meet. Does that make your car any better than when you show at AACA and get 392 but don't know it. What is it, the award or the points you are going for? If you know how good the car is why do you have to have the point score.<P>The only place the point score matters is when you use it to hype the car in For Sale ads or to brag about how good a restoration you did or to verify that the money spent with a restorer was well spent.<P>I have been in this judging game for too many years to get excited because someone or group of someones wants to know their point deductions. Mostly they just want to [censored] about the judging and use that as ammunition.<P>As for the judging policy of the chev. club mentioned, I would rather have my car judged by someone who came to the meet wanting to judge, than by somebody forced to judge or pay $25.<P>There will always be complainers but their numbers are far outweighed by satisfied members who know the rules going in and accept them. <P>But then this is just my opinion. I could be wrong. hvs

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Howard, You have very good valid points. I have no answers to this. All I know is it was frustrating coming up through the ranks to senior and not knowing what I had wrong. My goal is to make my car as perfectly original as possible and still be able to enjoy it.<P>Also, I want to point out again as I did in other posts a long time ago - I AM NOT CRITICIZING THE JUDGES!!!!!!! I appreciate their dedication and efforts. Thanks to you all.<P>------------------<BR>Ron & Judy<BR>2 1960 Impalas<BR>http://www.anglefire.com/pa3/impala

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Maybe it needs to be made clearer to members showing their cars that you can get a copy of the judging sheet (w/o points) to let thenm know what area had points deducted in. The new judging forms for this year will be a better help to members with newer cars. They have the cars broken down into better listings.

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Just a minor clarification on Novaman's post - you can get the judging sheet showing areas where deductions were made only if you DID NOT win the award for which you were competing.<P>One other point (no pun intended) that should be made is that we judge the vehicle as it is shown on the day of the meet. I have seen the case where an owner gets his vehicle home, cleans it up or does some other work and effectively "destroys" the feature for which points were deducted and then goes nuts trying to rationalize a deduction when he gets the judging sheet.

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  • 2 weeks later...

My car won a first junior this year at Hershey. Did it only compete with others trying for a first or does it compete with cars that already have a senior in the same class? I'm still not sure I understand the system.

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you were only competing with other junior cars. Now that you have won your 1st Junior, you will be competing with other senior cars until you win your senior award. After that, you will be judged for preservation. You should get yourself a judging manual. It explains the procedure very well. It is only 3 or 4 bucks and if I remember correctly, you get 1 free at judges school.<P>Good luck!<p>[This message has been edited by randjflo60 (edited 04-02-2001).]

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I agree with R&J,<P>It certainly helps to have the judging sheet with the deductions - in order to improve the vehicle.<P>This reminds me of my college days - when I had the opportunity to take some courses where you either "passed or failed". Needless to say - I decided to stick to courses where I got graded. It was nice to know where I stood.<P>The comments made by hvs are entertaining. I have no intentions of selling my car(s) so the "bragging rights" is mute. There is a big difference between a 900 point car and a 1000 point car. BUT, and this is a BIG but - I like to have my car judged by "someone" that knows what they are looking at. All too often, a "so-called" expert makes a comment - and its their ignorance I can't tolerate. (ie chrome plating quality, paint condition)<P>I guess I will test the waters of AACA this year. If I like what I see - then I will be a happy member. <P>

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Dear Bowtieollie. You might conceder going to a judges school at the next AACA Meet you attend. You don't have to be a judge to go to the school and you will learn exactly what judges are looking for on the cars they judge. I had shown my car for a few years before I went to a school, and after I left my first judging school I suddenly realized a number of things I needed to do to correct my car for point judging. As a matter of fact now I have joined the AACA judging system and enjoy it as another part of our hobby. Now I'm not saying if you go to a judging school you would want to become a judge, but you will learn more about what goes on when your car is being judged and that kind of information is a good thing for car owners to have. Of course this is just my opinion.

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  • 1 month later...

I must take strong exception to the assertion that the only reasons participants would want to know point deductions is for bragging in "For Sale" ads or to [censored] about the judges. I have obtained the "sanitized" version a couple of times for my car and been totally mystified by some of the areas where points were deducted. If I knew how many points were deducted, I would at least know where that set of judges thought biggest defects were. <BR>Some clubs REQUIRE discussion with the owner before making authenticity deductions, and many require notation of the type of defect causing a deduction on the judging form. Since AACA covers all makes, making authenticity expertise even more difficult, one would think that should be the case in AACA.

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  • 9 months later...

I think this hangup over actual points deducted is a lot of BS. rolleyes.gif" border="0 As I look over the scoresheet for Junior Cars that I received at the judges school, I see some things that really stand out. The only major mandatory point deductions (10-40 points) are for items that are obviously either missing or incorrect. These items are not subject to nitpicking, they are so obvious that they demand the large point deductions. shocked.gif" border="0 <BR>Most other items are subject to a maximum point deduction of 2, 3, and 5 points. Does it make a lot of difference to know that you had 1 point deducted from a maximum of 2 or 3 points from a maximum of 5? rolleyes.gif" border="0 <BR>If you have any basic knowledge of your car, you should be able to correct your faults by using the report from the VP Class Judging.<BR>If not, I guess you should write a letter and ask for step by step procedures you should follow so you can receive that next award that you feel you are entitled to. grin.gif" border="0 <BR>Heck, why research your car and learn all you can about restoring it to its original state when you can just have someone tell you what's wrong? frown.gif" border="0

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Ron,<P>Thank you for your response. I think the question is not a matter of knowing the car, but more a pragmatic matter of what stood out to the Judges the most. We all have a limited amount of money to invest in our cars. Knowing what the judges saw and what it may have "cost" us, can help someone determine where to spend the capital required to allow the car to move to the next level. For example, if the trunk needs new carpeting and is worth 5 points, that is a great deal more expensive than replacing the Halogen Headlights with tungsten bulbs, worth 10 points! But if they noticed the trunk it would be an area to improve. If not, then I save a couple hundred dollars. I suppose the problem is that us owners may be more critical than the Judges. Not try to be cheap, but trying to determine where my money can best be spent.<P>Bart

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Bert,<BR>I see on flaw in your prior argument. The car is judged by different people at each show it goes to. So one group of judges may not notice you trunk but the next group does. Not saying that either group is wrong, in a perfect world they would have agreed on everything. <BR>You are better off making sure that the car is as good as you can make it for every show. If you think the trunk carpeting is bad, eventually you will meet up with judges who agree with your opinion. If you only have X amount of dollars to spend, then fix the obviously wrong things (headlights in your prior post) first. Then go for the questionable.<BR>If you know your car, you will know what needs to be fixed.

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I normally agree with Howard and Ron but in this instance I do not think that if it is not broke it doesn't need fixing. How about trying to make it better. I have restored 4 cars that went thru the AACA judging sytem and all won the Grand National and 3 of the cars even won National Award so there is no sour grapes here.<P>However, I have met so many owners over the years that really did not have a clue as to what needed to be improved on their cars. They were either new to the hobby or have never been helped by another member. It just seems to me that anything that can be done to help a member should be looked into. I am a member of clubs that send judging sheets back to members and I know that this sometimes puts people in difficult positions. Some of the clubs send judging sheets but hide the point deduction. <P>If there was a way to inform the owner without being too general I think it would help. i.e. Just saying "trunk" versus trunk carpet or paint or....<P>All judging systems are imperfect. I have met a few judges who for whatever reason felt that had supreme knowledge about everything. If it were not for others on the team that had the common sense to ask for documentation there would have been penalties.<P>In one of the clubs I belong to they make a habit of pointing out past judging mistakes at the national judges meetings. All correspondence and situations that have come up over the year are reviewed by the judges so mistakes can be avoided. Names are not used, etc so it is not done to embarrass anyone but to educate.<P>I really believe that AACA errs (if they do) on the side of the car owner. I think far more members get the trophy they deserve than those who are penalized incorrectly. It is a very liberal system compared to some individual marquee clubs.<P>Anyone who is trying to get points to sell their car is foolish! None of us take too much stock in an ad saying it is a 100 pt. car or 400 Pt. car or whatever! <P>Anyway. I think that if the MEMBERSHIP feels that they want more info, a way to accomodate them should be found. Once again, every club has the duty to be responsible to its members.

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Hey Bart,<BR>You said you've won a Junior and are pursuing a Senior... congratulations and good luck on your Senior! wink.gif" border="0 My cars are far from Junior consideration but I felt it necessary to attend at least one judges school and have some knowledge as I work on my projects. I, like others, encourage you to attend the next judges school that you can! grin.gif" border="0 <P>When you leave the school, besides some basic knowledge, you'll also have a free Judges Manual and a blank judging sheet. This information, along with the report from the VP Judging should give you all the info you need to advance from Junior to Senior.<P>You mentioned in your post that you'd like to know what really stood out as point deductions to the judges. Judging, much like the restoration process, is not one or two big items that cost you your Senior.... more likely it was a combination of several smaller deficiencies. What I was getting at in my post was that it doesn't matter how many points were deducted for an item, you can learn which items resulted in point deductions. rolleyes.gif" border="0 <P>Using your example of the trunk, my judging sheet shows a maximum point deduction of 5. If the VP's report shows you lost points for your trunk, I think that I would take a good look at it and make my own asessment. If it looks really ratty, you could guess that you probably lost 4 or 5 points and it requires some attention. By the same token, if your trunk doesn't look too bad, maybe you only lost a point or two.<P>It was mentioned in an earlier post that the judges vary from meet to meet. Imagine that you received a full point deduction report from a meet in May and you know that only 1 point was deducted for your trunk. You attend another meet in July and another judging team deducts 2 or 3 points for your trunk. Armed with your judges report from the May meet, you protest the deductions at the July meet and confusion begins. Multiply your protest by how many other car owners and you can see why exact point deductions are not revealed. Maybe the judging team at the May meet judging your class was lenient, but they were consistant in that class. The team at the July meet may have been tougher but, again, they were consistant.<P>As has been stated before, no system is perfect but I think that the AACA method is as good as any out there! grin.gif" border="0

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You may also want to have someone other then yourself give your car a good look over. They sometimes see things that we miss time and time again. Generally the little things that we suspect are wrong or not quite right are not the problem. Good luck!

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Folks,<P>Thank you for all the sage advice. I guess what it comes down to is to fix the things which I know are not original or are not in 100% perfect condition, where I can afford to do so, & live with any deductions I receive on items I couldn't correct in time. <P>I plan on owning this vehicle for many years to come, and there will always be another National to show in. <P>By the way, in the 2 years since I've completed the restoration, it has won 1st place twelve times in "All British participant choice" car shows, 2nd in two others,a 3rd in the GOF and now a 1st Junior National AACA. It's a fine vehicle and I hope, one day, to make it a concourse contender as well as a 1st Senior AACA. <P>The AACA judging has meant more to me as a validation of my work than the participant shows because of the careful consideration given the cars by the team. In the other shows, it usually is just a beauty contest. I like having "brains" as well as "beauty". Thanks again for the guidance!<P>... and a BIG THANK YOU to those of you who give up your time to judge in Category 25... much appreciated!<P>Bart<P>1973 MG Midget<BR>1971 MGB<BR>1980 Triumph TR8 (I know... too new... but just wait until 2005!)<BR> wink.gif" border="0<p>[ 03-15-2002: Message edited by: btsave ]

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Good points are made here re having different judges at different meets. This is particularly true if you attend meets all over the country, however if you tend to only attend meets in say the southeast, or central divisions, you will some consistency in judging assignments. For example there is a group of us who are always assigned to the motorcycles in almost all of the eastern and SE meets.<P>Many hears ago (I think it was Howard that started it) there was an informal,i.e. not necessarily rigidly scientific, evaluation of scores on vehicles that were frequently shown at different meets. The conclusion of this survey was that there was amazing consistency in the total number of deductions, but not always for the same areas. As mentioned above on one team you may have a judge that tends to judge harder than another judge looking at the same defects.<P>When the VP CJ sends a marked form it will indicate where points were deducted and if there is a major deduction it will be circled. If it is not a major deduction you may chase your tail trying to figure where the one or two points were taken.<P>Let me tell a short story here. Back a number of years ago Sally and I were showing several of our bikes at different meets. As a routine I like to clean them up when I get back home so they will be ready for the next trip. On one particular bike I did this without thinking much about it and when I got the judging form, I was puzzled about several deductions on the frame when normally there were none on the bike. I showed ithe form to Sally and she started laughing. It turned out that she had applied some wax on the frame and had to leave for judging and forgot to wipe off the wax. When I got home and cleaned the bike I destroyed the evidence while cleaning the bike. Fortunately I did not get upset when I found out what happened and felt that the judges did in fact do a good job.

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Steve ~ Since my last post on this thread was 3-21-01, 6 days short of a year ago, I really am not up to date on this one.<P>However I would like to address two of the points which you raised. First, cars ARE judged too leniently and many of them win awards which they do not deserve. This is one reason why I have pretty much dropped out of judging. When I go out and do the job as I feel it should be done, I am usually the one person on the team who deducts serious points while the others give a mediocre vehicle a slap on the wrist. <P>I honestly feel this is the result of years of preaching, "Don't kill the cars." This was Bert Harrington's credo some 25 years ago and it seems to have infected most judges since that time. Dammit, if it is wrong take a deduction and not just one point for a major flaw.<P>Of course, this is a politically incorrect attitude and if adhered to there would be fewer awards and more unhappy owners. We certainly wouldn't want to make anyone unhappy by not giving them an award every time out, now would we. Vice Presidents of Class Judging have been threatened with being<BR>sued because an owner received a lesser award than HE felt he deserved. In one case, the vehicle should never have even gotten the award it did. <P>Point #2: The judging sheet has no provision for listing EXACTLY what the deduction was for. We deduct points under trunk, but that could be for rust, trunk mat, missing paint or any other item which was not correct. If the judges are going to be expected to detail every individual flaw in each item on the judging sheet, then we will need a multi page judging form and four times as many judges. We do the best we can and there is no way we can write out a restoration seminar of each and every car being judged.<P>This is going to be an unpopular statement and maybe it proves that I really should get out of judging.<P>I do not support holding each owner's hand and guideing him through how to restore his car. I do not support the concept that if we do this everyone will be a happier camper and go home feeling all warm and fuzzy with his trophy.<P>I believe in the concept of AACA judging when I entered the system 33 years ago.<P>It is the owners responsibility to prepare the vehicle for evaluation by the judges. It is the judges job to evaluate the vehicle as presented on the judging field. It is up to the owner to research his own vehicle and not the judge's job to do it for him. <P>We have come a long way from those days, but I do not feel it has led to better judging. Just more awards for undeserving vehicles.<P>That is just my opinion. ~ hvs<P>While I was typing this post Father Ron came on with his, which I just read. Yes, I did do that informal, unscientific survey during the years I served a Judges Training Director and VP of Class Judging. I looked at hundreds of judging sheets of cars shown at multiple meets. In most cases the point score was within a 5 point spread, but rarely were the deductions taken for exactly the same defects. And in the class the right vehicles got the various awards, but not necessarily always for the right reasons.<P>REMEMBER FOLKS, the judging is done by human beings and no two of us see things with the same eyes. Every judge makes errors, but I will bet serious money that they make as many in the owner's favor as they do to his detriment.<P>And that, too is my opinion based on 33 years of judging [260 judging credits] at every level of the system from field judge through Judges Training Director, VP Class Judging, National Awards Judge, Judging Committee member and back to where I am today, field judge. hv<p>[ 03-15-2002: Message edited by: hvs ]

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Howard..I Absolutely concur about the lieniency in AACA! I have seen examples of poor cars even at a Grand National Meet. Will never forget the wood-bodied car with the fiberglass matting showing thru! I have had a owner tell me he brought his car to a certain meet so he could "slide thru" to get his award and he was an AACA director!<P>I have heard discussions by several members at meets that the prestige of having a AACA National First Prize was getting more and more diminished.<P>You and Ron are far more experienced than I will ever be in this area and I do understand your points. I guess my background in officiating tends to make me not just want to penalize folks but to tell them WHY. All i can relate to is my experience. I am just stubborn enough to believe that there can be a way to help those owners that need it and a better way for judges to learn to be the kind of judge you apparently have been!<P>By the way, I am really glad you spoke up more stongly than I did about the lieniency in judging. I judged a car at a national meet two years ago which was the worst car I have judged in my life. It never should have been allowed on the show field for judging (bondo bubbling thru, wrong paint. wrong interior, poor or absent plating, oil leaks, bad wiring, etc). I judged the car accordingly and the owner failed to get an award. Later, I was over-ruled by the head judge because the car was the only one in its class! This was not an AACA meet and I got no where with the head judge in explaining it was a slap in the face to all the other owners at the meet who at least tried to restore their cars!<P>I guess I have been rambling. Maybe that is why I can not wait to get to touring with my brass car and forget about points. This subject is probably not good for my mental health!<p>[ 03-16-2002: Message edited by: oldscarnut ]

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oldscarnut,<BR>I understand what you mean about leniency. At a recent National in Florida, there was a black MGB with the wrong interior (color, material and carpeted instead of rubber matted), wrong mirrors, hi-pressure fuel lines (instead of braided hose), wrong whitewalls, wrong size tires,incorrect spoked wheels, Halogen lamps (as opposed to tungsten), missing engine decals, door decals and ALL the finer points! among other things... whose owner even had the nerve to argue with the Judge without appropriate documentation... and he tied for 1st Junior! I've spent 2 years researching and bringing my car to as close as possible to it's "personally exported delivery" status... and the other car "slipped" through! It was difficult to stand there and keep my mouth closed as the Judges ignored these errors. Maybe AACA does need to tighten up some.

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Steve ~ Just one point about AACA judging. Any member may pay the $17.00 registration fee and put any eligible AACA vehicle on the judging field at a National Meet. [Not at a Grand National]<P>No matter how bad that vehicle might be, he has the right to have it judged. If he has no shame, we'll judge it. rolleyes.gif" border="0 ~ hvs

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btsave, You brought a great point about research and detailing. If you are doing a correct show restoration this is the first important step. Details and finish, assembly line check marks and decals, those little things that make the car look like dealership day of delivery. That is what I look for in a show restoration. I have seen simalar situations when a great restoration goes for a Senior against another car that should have never won a first Junior

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Hey Bart,<BR>Your post about the black MG make a point made earlier... ATTEND A JUDGES SCHOOL!!! grin.gif" border="0 Apparently you have a lot of knowledge about limey (not lemon) cars that those judging that class did not! frown.gif" border="0 <P>If you were to attend a school and start judging, you could share your knowledge with those less informed. I'm sure that you could not judge a class with your own car entered in it, but, as a registered AACA judge, your input would probably be appreciated. If I'm wrong here, I'm sure some those with more experience will add corrections. wink.gif" border="0 <P>The great thing I've found about the AACA is the willingness to share information that will advance the hobby. Whether a National Officer or a lowly member like myself, we're all willing to share our facts and ideas with anyone who cares to listen or read them! rolleyes.gif" border="0 <P>Again, good luck in pursuing your Senior! smile.gif" border="0

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Bart, I want to add to what Ron just said. I will make the assumption based on your rational comments on this thread that you know something about the cars in that class and I will go further to assume that you are not one of the "know-it-alls" without contradiction, and invite you to join us in the judging ranks. We do need additional expertise and welcome the opportunity to learn from your experience. I know a pretty good bit about the classes I prefer to judge, but will admit that every judging experience is also a learning experience, thanks to my fellow judges and the system we have. wink.gif" border="0

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Ronbarn and fordee9r,<BR>You're right, I should help out in judging. (Kinda like "put-up or shut-up"?) My expertise is in british sports cars, but I would enjoy learning from others about other Marques. The next National close to me will be in Orlando Florida in 2003 (about 3 hrs away from here), since I'm going for a my Senior there, I want to "hover & spritz" around my car. I assume I can attend the school the night before, but not judge? That way, the National after this one, I would be able to judge. (Assuming I've achieved my 1st Senior... otherwise it's "hover & spritz" time once again!)<BR>Bart wink.gif" border="0

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Just a quick afternote. I just saw the black MGB which I mentioned in the earlier post up for sale in eBay (see item 1815207034)! Now I see why he argued with the Judges... he just wanted to advertise the fact that it won a AACA first (which he proudly declares in the titles) in order to get a better price. Some people just don't get it, do they? Comments confused.gif" border="0frown.gif" border="0

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Hey Bart,<BR>Back to the Judges School thing... attending the school is in no way a committment to judge. You can attend as many schools as you wish and never judge. At the same, after attending your first school, you will not be turned loose on the show field at the next meet. When you begin judging, you will be assigned as an apprentice and not have any say as to points deductions. Your first few experiences are meant to get your feet wet and learn how the system works. wink.gif" border="0 <P>At the next meet for you, check to see when the judges school is scheduled. It's very possible that you can attend the school for an hour or two and still have time to spritz up your car before the judges arrive! grin.gif" border="0 <P>Again, good luck in the pursuit of your Senior! smile.gif" border="0

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I had a very short career on showing a vehicle in competion. I still don't know why i got deductions in almost all categories for my motorcycle. i was as excited as a kid in a candy store when i won the FIRST JUNIOR, SENIOR, and the JUNIOR GRAND NATIONAL AWARDS and then my bubble was busted, as i said i still don't know what's incorrect about my bike, so it and all my other cars and motorcycles are now judged by me only. Unless so changes are made with the system i won't be there. confused.gif" border="0

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Virginian:<P>Please clarify. If you received a Grand National First Prize (correct description) are you puzzled why you did not receive a Grand National "Senior"? <P>I am a little confused with your post. If you won a Grand National First, you should be fairly pleased, I would think.<P>Regards, Peter J.<p>[ 03-24-2002: Message edited by: Peter J Heizmann ]

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