Hay Dr. Olds; make some room up in Boot Hill; there may be some more coming to join you!

[llskis]

Hearing throughout the "Web" that this new GM CEO (Mary Barra) is a no nonsense kinda gal. She will

take no excuse to any division that can't "hold their own". She is open to sending GMC and Buick to

"Boot Hill" to join the other "not for profit divisions". Chevrolet who is now 80% of GM and Cadilac will

be the only ones left. Lean and Mean as they say. I for one say "Bring it on".JMHO Comments? Larry

P.S. Ford learned long time ago to get rid of the losers.

Edited December 16, 2013 by llskis
Spelling (see edit history)

[Guest bkazmer]

Hearing throughout the "Web" that this new GM CEO (Mary Barra) is a no nonsense kinda gal. She will

take no excluse to any division that can't "hold their own". She is open to sending GMC and Buick to

"Boot Hill" to join the other "not for profit divisions". Chevrolet who is now 80% of GM and Cadilac will

be the only ones left. Lean and Mean as they say. I for one say "Bring it on".JMHO Comments? Larry

P.S. Ford learned long time ago to get rid of the losers.

I don't buy it on Buick - Buick is the surviving triplet of Poldsuick because of China. GM needs mid range coverage - it's Buick. Buick has a very good brand reputation there. It's always interesting to watch the brands be "commonized" to where they are no longer differentiated, then amazingly they become redundant.

GMC is a really cheap line to keep as a tarted up Chevy truck from a design basis, but the dealer network is another matter. GM is still fighting having too many dealers and the resulting squeeze on dealer profitability. It's not so evident in rural areas, but look at the number of Toyota and Honda dealers in a city vs Chevy dealers. You simply don't need as many dealers to service 25% of the market as when you had 50%.

I'm not so sure about Ford - Lincoln is struggling.

[supersix]

I always thought that GM should discontinue Chevy trucks and keep GMC. That being the case, all GM dealers could sell them.

[rocketraider]

The rest could more than "hold their own" until GM started bastardizing them with out-of-division engines etc. Unfortunately Oldsmobile in particular paid a high price for a lot of GM management stupidity.

GM lost my new car business after that POS 1997 Bravada, and if all they can offer me are Chevy and Cadillac they have nothing at all to offer me. The whole works can follow Olds and Pontiac to the boneyard far as I'm concerned. That includes their new "savior". Let her stand in the unemployment lines with the rest of them.

Bad experiences with the local dealership don't improve my opinion of GM either. But, when they are by GM design the only game in town, you have a GM car, you have to deal with their overpriced and subpar service. Next closest GM dealer is 40 miles away. At least when GM had a larger dealer network, if one was bad, you could get the vehicle repaired at another local dealer.

Edited December 16, 2013 by rocketraider (see edit history)

[R W Burgess]

P.S. Ford learned long time ago to get rid of the losers.

No disrespect meant to anyone, but I consider myself one of those "losers". GM's decision changers has gotten me to thinking about buying a Dodge (not Chevy) pickup for the first time in my life. I have not gotten over the death of Olds and Pontiac either. (Chrysler is squarely in my sight for a new car).

Keep messing around GM and see how many more lifetime GM buyers you can lose!!!!

[joe_padavano]

I'm confused by the whole dropping of divisions among all automakers. Chrysler drops Plymouth but then spins off the Ram and SRT divisions. Go figure.

As for GM dropping more divisions, Buick is safe until it no longer turns a profit in China. As for Chevy and GMC selling identical trucks, I've never completely understood that. In most of the years that the F-150 was the best-selling truck, it was only because GM split the market. Add the sales numbers of the identical Chevy and GMC trucks and it usually blew Ford away. Chevy won't drop the truck line so long as the Tahoe and Suburban are top selling SUVs. GMC still covers more of the commercial sales.

Actually, I'm confused about the whole purpose of this thread... :confused:

[llskis]

The rest could more than "hold their own" until GM started bastardizing them with out-of-division engines etc. Unfortunately Oldsmobile in particular paid a high price for a lot of GM management stupidity.

If you know the history of GM Finance you noticed that throughout the years the never published a "Profit/Loss Statement" per Division. They did

indeed know what the Divisions where doing internally. I was a GM Bond holder and never got that info. The way I look at it is that if the Division

can truely "hold their own" so be it. But being a Chevrolet fan I don't want 1 Cent of Chevrolet $$ going to the other "not for profit" Divisions. JMHO

Larry

P.S. If you look at the Stats since they(GM) dropped all their losers they acutualy increased their market share.

[Guest]

I'm confused by the whole dropping of divisions among all automakers. Chrysler drops Plymouth but then spins off the Ram and SRT divisions. Go figure.

As for GM dropping more divisions, Buick is safe until it no longer turns a profit in China. As for Chevy and GMC selling identical trucks, I've never completely understood that. In most of the years that the F-150 was the best-selling truck, it was only because GM split the market. Add the sales numbers of the identical Chevy and GMC trucks and it usually blew Ford away. Chevy won't drop the truck line so long as the Tahoe and Suburban are top selling SUVs. GMC still covers more of the commercial sales.

Actually, I'm confused about the whole purpose of this thread... :confused:

The thread shows a lot of how all the divisions brand image was torpedoed by the corporation with the use of commonality of just the key parts and the price structure of where each division fit. Most of that brand imaging and price structure got really fuzzy by the early to mid 70's. Many people bailed on their favorite brand because of this, A Chevy engine in a Pontiac or Olds car is unthinkable and loyal fans of those cars just went somewhere else I myself included . The other point of what can be seen is the reflection of GM taking a hard look at what the mid price vehicles future in a world ( U.S. ) where the middle class will soon be going away, it shrinks every year which is fact, not fiction.

[Guest bkazmer]

The rest could more than "hold their own" until GM started bastardizing them with out-of-division engines etc. Unfortunately Oldsmobile in particular paid a high price for a lot of GM management stupidity.

. But being a Chevrolet fan I don't want 1 Cent of Chevrolet $$ going to the other "not for profit" Divisions. JMHO

so you would have favored letting Cadillac die in the 1930's, yes? your opinion has I believe a valid discussion point - would we have had better offerings than crap like the Cavalier and Cobalt without "corporate tax"

[llskis]

The thread shows a lot of how all the divisions brand image was torpedoed by the corporation with the use of commonality of just the key parts and the price structure of where each division fit. Most of that brand imaging and price structure got really fuzzy by the early to mid 70's. Many people bailed on their favorite brand because of this, A Chevy engine in a Pontiac or Olds car is unthinkable and loyal fans of those cars just went somewhere else I myself included .

helfen: Thanks for the response. You hit a raw nerve with the above. Yes the Chevy engne was unthinkable to be put into

"their" brands. But when Old/Buick/Pontiac went into racing with NASCAR and then "stole" the Chevy Engine to use in their

vehicles is what "crossed the line with me" Then all of a sudden is was alright; but they never indicated that in their advertisments

that had to do with NASCAR. Of course the "losers" all started to brag about winning in NASCAR but never with their own

engineering. Glad they are up at Boot Hill to stay; just a couple more to go. Of course; JMHO Larry

[mrspeedyt]

chevy should build the small cars, suburban, tahoe, pickup and corvette. buick should build the midsize and cadillac the large cars and escalade.

[Guest bkazmer]

this raises a good point about component sharing. It's not just having sufficient differentiation, but also not misleading the consumer. In general, today the sharing, even if not exactly advertised, is known. Then is there enough of significance different.

In the 30's and 40's, GM shared bodies across lines but not engines. The basic VW Golf platform is under at least 6 cars (Golf. Jetta, Eos, A4, S4, TT). The problem is when it's 1990's Bonneville/88/LeSabre - same car,different grille.

[Guest]

The thread shows a lot of how all the divisions brand image was torpedoed by the corporation with the use of commonality of just the key parts and the price structure of where each division fit. Most of that brand imaging and price structure got really fuzzy by the early to mid 70's. Many people bailed on their favorite brand because of this, A Chevy engine in a Pontiac or Olds car is unthinkable and loyal fans of those cars just went somewhere else I myself included .

helfen: Thanks for the response. You hit a raw nerve with the above. Yes the Chevy engne was unthinkable to be put into

"their" brands. But when Old/Buick/Pontiac went into racing with NASCAR and then "stole" the Chevy Engine to use in their

vehicles is what "crossed the line with me" Then all of a sudden is was alright; but they never indicated that in their advertisments

that had to do with NASCAR. Of course the "losers" all started to brag about winning in NASCAR but never with their own

engineering. Glad they are up at Boot Hill to stay; just a couple more to go. Of course; JMHO Larry

I take you don't mean when Pontiac actually won Big time in NASCAR form 1957 to January of 1963. The Olds and Pontiac's that ran NASCAR in later years are not considered REAL Olds or Pontiac's by Olds and Pontiac fans. Those cars are considered corporate. At least the Pontiac fans have a saying that goes like NO CORPORATE NONSENSE. See the link.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CEMQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpontiacheaven.org%2FPontiac_Heaven_story.html&ei=65GvUt-rCsvjoASw6YDoAg&usg=AFQjCNGT1MU2HqBK1uEkpdWxroWoE1jk_g&bvm=bv.57967247,d.cGU

[rocketraider]

Well... Oldsmobile made money for GM. Money that did not get put back into Oldsmobile R&D, but instead was diverted to Cadillac to try and save it from the shambles early-80s GM top management had made of it, and to further Roger Smith's pet Saturn project. Olds faithful didn't think much of that, but what control did they have over it? GM arrogance was going to do it come hell or high water.

When the five GM passenger car Divisions had their autonomy, each could MORE than hold its own. When they became badge-engineered Chevrolets that's when things came unglued for GM. Add in a LOT of slipshod and not thoroughly tested engineering that slipped out and it's a wonder GM survived the 80s and 90s at all.

Larry, if all you want to hear about is Chevrolet, have at it. A lot of people know that GM was more than just Chevrolet Division and the five Divisions are what made GM great in the day. Mr. Sloan knew what he was doing when he established the Hierarchy.

BTW the Olds 350 HP NASCAR engine was completely an Oldsmobile design. It shared nothing with the SBC. It also took Oldsmobile engineering and metallurgy to finally work all the kinks out of the BB Chevy and create the DRCE GM big block. They also refined the SBC into the "Rocket Block" which most aftermarket (read improved over factory) SBC blocks are based on. So watch how you diss the Rocket Division- Chevrolet owes a lot to them. That "America still builds Rockets" Corvette ad pisses us off too.

[Guest]

Well... Oldsmobile made money for GM. Money that did not get put back into Oldsmobile R&D, but instead was diverted to Cadillac to try and save it from the shambles early-80s GM top management had made of it, and to further Roger Smith's pet Saturn project. Olds faithful didn't think much of that, but what control did they have over it? GM arrogance was going to do it come hell or high water.

When the five GM passenger car Divisions had their autonomy, each could MORE than hold its own. When they became badge-engineered Chevrolets that's when things came unglued for GM. Add in a LOT of slipshod and not thoroughly tested engineering that slipped out and it's a wonder GM survived the 80s and 90s at all.

Larry, if all you want to hear about is Chevrolet, have at it. A lot of people know that GM was more than just Chevrolet Division and the five Divisions are what made GM great in the day. Mr. Sloan knew what he was doing when he established the Hierarchy.

BTW the Olds 350 HP NASCAR engine was completely an Oldsmobile design. It shared nothing with the SBC. It also took Oldsmobile engineering and metallurgy to finally work all the kinks out of the BB Chevy and create the DRCE GM big block. They also refined the SBC into the "Rocket Block" which most aftermarket (read improved over factory) SBC blocks are based on. So watch how you diss the Rocket Division- Chevrolet owes a lot to them. That "America still builds Rockets" Corvette ad pisses us off too.

Glenn, don't forget to tell Larry that the original SBC's valve train was stole from Pontiac by Ed Cole who broke the one year exclusivity divisions had over new designs by crying to corporate, and Pontiac had reverse flow cooling decades before any chevy did.

[llskis]

BTW the Olds 350 HP NASCAR engine was completely an Oldsmobile design. It shared nothing with the SBC. It also took Oldsmobile engineering and metallurgy to finally work all the kinks out of the BB Chevy and create the DRCE GM big block. They also refined the SBC into the "Rocket Block" which most aftermarket (read improved over factory) SBC blocks are based on. So watch how you diss the Rocket Division- Chevrolet owes a lot to them. That "America still builds Rockets" Corvette ad pisses us off too.

Glen: Thanks much for your insight. Not sure where to begin on a response but here goes.

Yes you are correct the Olds 350 NASCAR is completely yours; you can have it, AFAIK it never won anything of any consequence. Nobody on the Olds team

had anything to do with the B/B Chevy. People like Vince Piggins;Dick Keinath;Denny Davis;Fred Frincke and of course Gib Hufstader where all Chevy people

that developed this great motor. This motor has won more races in a year than OLD's would do in two lifetimes. Yes you got into the act and did some "head

work" for the SBC and DRCE engines (which by the way is all Chevy internal components.) All that work went for not as everything as been surperceded by

the "BowTie" people. This is part of my point what business was it for Old to tinker with Chevy's engines?? Stay put with your engines as they needed help

in the worst way.(Low RPM Engines with no Horsepower) Anyway that's my point of view; I call a spade a spade. I appreciate your point of view. Larry

[rocketraider]

The DRCE and Rocket Block engine development work Olds did for Chevrolet is all documented.

Yes, the DRCE uses all Chevy internals; we're talking about design and metallurgy refinement. No Rocket Block SBC in my experience can use any off the shelf Chevy components- all custom work from oil pan up.

Yeah, far as I'm concerned Olds wasted its time, resources and engineering talent on those Chevy side projects, but it's like the passenger car Diesel- they were tasked with doing it so they did it, to their ultimate own detriment. Continued development on the Hemi-Olds would have been a much worthier use of time and resources but emissions, insurance and Corvette put a halt to that.

Low RPM Engines with no Horsepower

I'm just not following that logic at all.:confused: If anything, Olds underrated its horsepower ratings more than any other GM Division. 300 horsepower out of a 2-barrel single exhaust 455 is nothing to sneeze at, as is 310 horsepower out of a 330 inch engine. Sure, 307 Y's were weenies, but they were a victim of corporate politics and emission standards.

But, I have learned that arguing GM engines with Chevy people is a lot like arguing theology with a fundamentalist. They know only what they believe and love to tell you that what you know and believe is all wrong.

Edited December 17, 2013 by rocketraider (see edit history)

[llskis]

I'm just not following that logic at all.:confused: If anything, Olds underrated its horsepower ratings more than any other GM Division. 300 horsepower out of a 2-barrel single exhaust 455 is nothing to sneeze at, as is 310 horsepower out of a 330 inch engine. Sure, 307 Y's were weenies, but they were a victim of corporate politics and emission standards.

But, I have learned that arguing GM engines with Chevy people is a lot like arguing theology with a fundamentalist. They know only what they believe and love to tell you that what you know and believe is all wrong.

Glen: Thanks again. I respect you for your comments. Will be Gentleman and agree to disagree. Olds underrated its horsepower more then any division??? Huh;

I suppose you never heard of the L88 rated at 430 HP?? Anyway I will leave you with two pictures that the Olds people have nightmeres over. 2nd picture is a Gentleman you guys never had and never will; he is with a engine you guys only dream about. 1st picture is a car you have no clue what it is or what it

can do. I stand by my 1st statement. Hay Dr. Olds start making room; more coming. Again Thanks; Larry

[Guest]

I'll leave you with a picture of what would have been if GM in January of 1963 hadn't killed the racing programs for Pontiac. The OHC Pontiac six was the only engine to escape to make production. The four valve DOHC 421 would have made the SOHC Ford, and the 426 Hemi look like kiddy pool....... Still, How does a full size stock 1963 Pontiac SD Catalina run 11's at over 125mph with 405 or 410 hp??? Do the math, those engines were putting out over 500hp with ease.

http://www.generationhighoutput.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/pontiac-ohc-1.jpg

[R W Burgess]

......Sure, 307 Y's were weenies, but they were a victim of corporate politics and emission standards..........

.

I've had both, but I will say one thing about the 307 Oldsmobile engine. Becoming an older gentleman has made me appreciate the discovery of heat in the wintertime, and I must say that the 307 is the fastest warm-up engine I have even seen, whether in our Oldsmobile Regencies or even the 86 Chevy wagon we own. Instant heat! Love it.

One more note, these vehicles are the first big cars that I have owned in a long time that will get around 21 miles per gallon on the Interstate.

Wayne

[Rusty_OToole]

Over 50 years ago the CEO of GM said they were in the business of making profits not cars. They have been running the company into the ground in the name of profits for years and it finally caught up with them. Don't be surprised if they take the bailout money and go on making good profits and lousy cars.

[Guest rjones]

I find all the back and forth about the different divisions kinda humorous. Sounds just like the divisions years ago arguing with each other and in the meantime they all missed the boat! I'm between a rock and a hard place on this one. As far as I'm concerned I never plan to buy anything from GM ever again. My last new one was a 1988 Olds with a coupla used ones since. If GM closed yesterday the only thing that concerns me is we need the industrial capability if we ever get in another war like the second big one. There is nothing the lady can do to get me back, I'm keeping my 2005 Honda CR-V or another one just like it!

[rocketraider]

rjones has made the point both on GM production and American industrial capacity.

GM in its latter-day arrogance has lost and will continue to lose sales to the Asian (and European, or at least the ones it didn't screw up) carmakers. I can't really see myself in one, but I did jump ship to Fords for daily transportation. I simply think they're a better product now, and as stated earlier the local Ford dealer service is light-years ahead of the local GM store. They also don't charge maximum markup on parts like the GM dealer, and the earlier B-O-P-Cad dealers didn't charge that either. There's that only game in town thing again.

Wayne, I had an 81 Pontiac Safari wagon with 307 that would consistently deliver 24-26 mpg highway on good gas. You could tell to the tankful on that car when reformulated gas hit the stations every year because mileage would drop by 30%- to 17 mpg, and nothing would change that until the RFG was out of the tanks for the year. But yes, it was a quick warm-up engine!

Larry, I greatly respect Mr. Duntov for how he saved the 'Vette, since if he hadn't rescued it with the V8 and a few other tricks it would have been history by 1956. Guess what other GM vehicle was "not for profit"? while Oldsmobile was selling everything it could build. I also respect Chevrolet engineering, but bottom line is they didn't have a lock on it.

But, uh, Mr. A-D got his start with Fords. Flathead Fords that he made OHV aluminum head conversions for.

Nightmare? http://www.streetlegaltv.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/10/files/2011/06/Hemi455Olds.jpg Somebody musta lost sleep over the possibility of this thing making production, because even though the "official" reasons were insurance and emissions, it was well-known inside GM that the fiberglass car people used their parent's clout to get the project halted along with a similar Buick experimental. I mean, once word got out that one of them had nearly broken a dyno...

Then again 550+ horsepower/ 660 lbft torque thru manifolds using a stock intake and QuadraJet is kinda low, isn't it? The dyno-breaker had four two-barrel Webers and low restriction exhaust. And to think the single-QJ version was slated for production in the 1970 Toronado, and then into the A-body in 1971...

If Chevrolet hadn't had disproportionate market share and production capacity over the years, I don't think you'd see GM touting it as their premier product now either. The two defunct Divisions held their own in the marketplace as long as they were autonomous and had their own engines and engineering people. People got wise quick to the thinly disguised clones GM was peddling, yet the Corporation blamed their poor sales on the brand, not the fact they were forcing substandard rebadged product on the individual brands and expecting them to sell it.

Some people claim current GM is the best it's ever been. May be true, but I ain't shelling out my money to find out. Overpriced, horridly styled and s***ty dealer support? Don't think so. Odds are great there'll be another Ford in my future!

[llskis]

If Chevrolet hadn't had disproportionate market share and production capacity over the years, I don't think you'd see GM touting it as their premier product now either.

Glen: Thanks again and I truely like your comments. This will be my final entry on this subject. I can see you & some others are

"hard losers why GM droped you". I would be also. Now a few ending comments. On the above about Chevrolet having the

disproportion market share and etc. All I can see it was never given to them; they earned it! Common sense tells me that a

Major car company should have only one racing involved division. Chevrolet Bros. where at and won Indy a long time ago and

had the tradition/engineering to carry on. If Pontiac/Olds/and Soon to be Buick had stayed with a game plan to sell/improve their

product they may still be around today. You guys had no business to get involved with racing or a horsepower race with Chevy.

Then you (Olds) had the stupid idea even to work on Chevy Engines when your Engines needed help the most. You Figure.

Bottom Line: In the next lifetime please put your effort on selling cars not racing. At the end you guys could not even give them away.

OK; That is enough on my part. Good Luck. Larry

[R W Burgess]

Bottom Line: In the next lifetime please put your effort on selling cars not racing. At the end you guys could not even give them away.

OK; That is enough on my part. Good Luck. Larry

Come on Larry, you don't remember, "Race on Sunday, Sell on Monday?" Hey, those were the days! We won't get into NASCAR failings but a lot of things were done right back in the day. Gee, now I'm depressed again.... You Guys!

[Guest rjones]

Some memories are slow or don't work but even heavily medicated I remember a Pontiac 303 that Chevy was scared of and had axed. I remember a Pontiac RAV 400 that was grossly underrated that wasn't scared of anything. Matter of fact, in my Pontiac years ago, the only things I had any concern over was a well prepared big inch Chrysler or any 455 Buick that someone knew how to drive! I remember a Fiero with a turbo Buick V6 that Chevy threw a fit about because it was direct competition with their precious little vette. (Would have stomped it in the ground)! I remember a big bodied Buick with a turbo V6 that wore out chevy on the track then and still can now and chevy had all the cars that size made into front wheel drive that wouldn't handle the turbo V6 power so the engine was dropped in turbo form. Who was it that brought us ball rocker arms, the first V8, distributorless ignition, machined combustion chambers, multi point fuel injection and the list goes on, It wasn't chevy! GM didn't put a good engine design together until the LS series and they've found that they didn't even get it right first time out of the box. But, for me, it's all history because when you have a problem with a car and a high level person in GM tells you that they don't care about you or your car and you can stick it where the sun don't shine then it's time to decide if you ever want to be over that barrel again. I'm not planning on going there and will say that my Honda CR-V is 10 times the car to me over anything GM can or will ever produce!

[Guest bkazmer]

I believe multipoint injection was in use long before GM ever put it on one of their cars. And they certainly didn't have the first V8. GM likes to pretend they invented everything.

[rocketraider]

about Chevrolet having the disproportion market share and etc. All I can see it was never given to them; they earned it!

They were GM's entry-level Division. That meant they had cars anyone could afford. They also had a large dealer network- every small town had Chevy, Ford and Plymouth stores. Their market share was due to attractive cars and pricing and sheer number of places to buy a Chevy. Ford & Plymouth operated similarly.

Common sense tells me that a Major car company should have only one racing involved division. Chevrolet Bros. where at and won Indy a long time ago and had the tradition/engineering to carry on.

Oldsmobile was racing before Chevrolet ever existed, much less as a part of GM. See "Oldsmobile Pirate". Also see NASCAR circa 1949-57.

If Pontiac/Olds/and Soon to be Buick had stayed with a game plan to sell/improve their product they may still be around today.

That was GM Corporate's doing. They went from autonomous Divisions to brands and some MBA-driven nonsense called "brand management". After that, nothing the individual GM Divisions did to improve their lot made any difference. Between the "brand management" groups and the GM Powertrain Group, they were all the same between the grille and taillights. Add in GM's dalliance with bringing in top management who didn't know anything about the car business, and the recipe for disaster was set. Seems one of them had been a toothpaste executive with Proctor & Gamble. But the MBA's said it didn't matter where your experience was, as long as you had top-level management experience.

You guys had no business to get involved with racing or a horsepower race with Chevy.

Then you (Olds) had the stupid idea even to work on Chevy Engines when your Engines needed help the most. You Figure.

Again, GM Corporate. Olds (and the other former Divisions) did what they were tasked with. Though it IS interesting that Oldsmobile held NHRA, and later SCCA, records longer than about anybody- using Oldsmobile engines.

Bottom Line: In the next lifetime please put your effort on selling cars not racing. At the end you guys could not even give them away.

Let's beat a dead horse, shall we. Again, that was GM CORPORATE'S DOING. For a GM bond holder, you're amazingly uninformed about GM internal politics and what that did to the five Divisions, but I'm guessing you're well under 40 years old- otherwise you'd know.

Towards the Olds/Pontiac end GM and its "brand management" policies were giving the dealers crap to sell, and I don't know many salesmen who can successfully sell that for long. B-O-P paid the highest price for that mismanagement, Chevrolet survived it only because of their size and market share, and Cadillac had to be saved at all costs- so they plowed the money Olds and Pontiac made for them back into Caddy, with predictable disastrous effect on Olds/Pontiac.

Bottom line: The only reason Olds and Pontiac are no more is because GM mismanaged them straight into oblivion. They did fine for themselves (and for GM) as long as they were autonomous and the MBA's stayed out of trying to manage something they knew less than nothing about. If some of those overpaid-and-perked MBA's were held legally and financially accountable for what they did to GM and other corporations, you'd have to build more prisons to hold them all.

Don't blame the product for the failure when it was all cookie-cutter corporate- lay the blame where it belongs, on a corporate culture that put the financial bottom line ahead of making quality product. They had the brains and talent to make a full line of excellent cars. Trouble was the financial types wouldn't turn loose of the cash to let them build it, instead insisting on "barely good enough, they'll still buy it". Add in that arrogance rjones mentioned when there was a problem with one of those "barely good enough" cars, and you see why a lot of people no longer want anything to do with General Motors vehicles.

The Ford people tracked my 1993 F150 to me as the second owner over that cruise control brake switch issue they had. That truck was 13 years old and they tracked it to me for correction at their expense. Do you honestly believe General Motors would have gone to that trouble on a 13 year old vehicle, short of a federal agency breathing down their necks? That 97 Bravada (Blazer in drag) had two warranty issues and several recalls on it during my ownership, and even though GM sent the letters and was footing the bill, the dealer did everything they could to get out of doing the repairs.

[Guest]

My understanding about Pontiac going away was GM would not get the U.S. bail-out money unless Pontiac went away

[Guest Skyking]

They were GM's entry-level Division. That meant they had cars anyone could afford. They also had a large dealer network- every small town had Chevy, Ford and Plymouth stores. Their market share was due to attractive cars and pricing and sheer number of places to buy a Chevy. Ford & Plymouth operated similarly. Oldsmobile was racing before Chevrolet ever existed, much less as a part of GM. See "Oldsmobile Pirate". Also see NASCAR circa 1949-57. That was GM Corporate's doing. They went from autonomous Divisions to brands and some MBA-driven nonsense called "brand management". After that, nothing the individual GM Divisions did to improve their lot made any difference. Between the "brand management" groups and the GM Powertrain Group, they were all the same between the grille and taillights. Add in GM's dalliance with bringing in top management who didn't know anything about the car business, and the recipe for disaster was set. Seems one of them had been a toothpaste executive with Proctor & Gamble. But the MBA's said it didn't matter where your experience was, as long as you had top-level management experience. Again, GM Corporate. Olds (and the other former Divisions) did what they were tasked with. Though it IS interesting that Oldsmobile held NHRA, and later SCCA, records longer than about anybody- using Oldsmobile engines. Let's beat a dead horse, shall we. Again, that was GM CORPORATE'S DOING. For a GM bond holder, you're amazingly uninformed about GM internal politics and what that did to the five Divisions, but I'm guessing you're well under 40 years old- otherwise you'd know. Towards the Olds/Pontiac end GM and its "brand management" policies were giving the dealers crap to sell, and I don't know many salesmen who can successfully sell that for long. B-O-P paid the highest price for that mismanagement, Chevrolet survived it only because of their size and market share, and Cadillac had to be saved at all costs- so they plowed the money Olds and Pontiac made for them back into Caddy, with predictable disastrous effect on Olds/Pontiac. Bottom line: The only reason Olds and Pontiac are no more is because GM mismanaged them straight into oblivion. They did fine for themselves (and for GM) as long as they were autonomous and the MBA's stayed out of trying to manage something they knew less than nothing about. If some of those overpaid-and-perked MBA's were held legally and financially accountable for what they did to GM and other corporations, you'd have to build more prisons to hold them all. Don't blame the product for the failure when it was all cookie-cutter corporate- lay the blame where it belongs, on a corporate culture that put the financial bottom line ahead of making quality product. They had the brains and talent to make a full line of excellent cars. Trouble was the financial types wouldn't turn loose of the cash to let them build it, instead insisting on "barely good enough, they'll still buy it". Add in that arrogance rjones mentioned when there was a problem with one of those "barely good enough" cars, and you see why a lot of people no longer want anything to do with General Motors vehicles. The Ford people tracked my 1993 F150 to me as the second owner over that cruise control brake switch issue they had. That truck was 13 years old and they tracked it to me for correction at their expense. Do you honestly believe General Motors would have gone to that trouble on a 13 year old vehicle, short of a federal agency breathing down their necks? That 97 Bravada (Blazer in drag) had two warranty issues and several recalls on it during my ownership, and even though GM sent the letters and was footing the bill, the dealer did everything they could to get out of doing the repairs.

"LIKE"

[Dave@Moon]

Why are you guys talking about what went wrong 20-40 years ago? The thread was started over the potential changes to be made to today's GM. To wit:

Hearing throughout the "Web" that this new GM CEO (Mary Barra) is a no nonsense kinda gal. She will

take no excuse to any division that can't "hold their own". She is open to sending GMC and Buick to

"Boot Hill" to join the other "not for profit divisions". Chevrolet who is now 80% of GM and Cadilac will

be the only ones left.

Checking U.S. 2013 calendar year sales through November, the Chevrolet brand is 70.1% of GM sales. GMC is 15.9%, Buick is 7.5%, and Cadillac is 6.4%. Of course the profit margin isn't the same on every vehicle, however the huge markup on pickups and SUVs probably makes up for the difference between the markup on an XTS and a Sonic. Therefore the sales figures probably are a good guide as to a brands' various profitability.

GM could lose Buick, if only in the U.S. (making it basically into China's Opel). However, is the American Buick customer more likely to buy a fancy Chevy, or move on to Lexus/Volvo/Mercedes/etc.? GM has to know from past experience that customers from lost brands are not coming back. They couldn't even sell Buicks to orphaned Oldsmobile customers when they were basically the same car.

Rationalization of the dealer structure is certainly in order. Perhaps there's no reason for Buicks and Caddys to have stand-alone dealerships any more, and GMC dealers may have some changes coming as well. However it would be hard to eliminate anything that's left of GM without abandoning a significant part of the market.

[Guest rjones]

I did slide off to a few years ago to cover a few disparaging remarks but I think you missed a little of what I said and that is that there is nothing GM can do or make to get me back. This is not because of a one time event but from personal vehicles, company vehicles and family vehicles. When I buy a vehicle it is an investment and with GM not only have I been treated badly by dealers and service and parts people but I have spent an inordinate amount on repairs that were from poor quality parts and workmanship, I have lost money on trade-ins and the vehicles have not lasted even with good maintenance. My brother converted a work fleet of almost 30 trucks to Ford because GM would not respond to a known issue. So I'm not talking just one vehicle purchased but with family about 50 and I will say that they won't be a GM. I am not totally sold on Honda but am not losing on the one I now own and I love it. I know that I am not the only one that feels this way and I can see where it could look bleak for GM. They need to save their marketing for the group that they've never sold a low quality vehicle to. If they cannot overcome, I feel for our country for losing the manufacturing capabilities but will not miss GM.

[llskis]

Why are you guys talking about what went wrong 20-40 years ago? The thread was started over the potential changes to be made to today's GM. To wit:

Checking U.S. 2013 calendar year sales through November, the Chevrolet brand is 70.1% of GM sales. GMC is 15.9%, Buick is 7.5%, and Cadillac is 6.4%. Of course the profit margin isn't the same on every vehicle, however the huge markup on pickups and SUVs probably makes up for the difference between the markup on an XTS and a Sonic. Therefore the sales figures probably are a good guide as to a brands' various profitability.

GM could lose Buick, if only in the U.S. (making it basically into China's Opel). However, is the American Buick customer more likely to buy a fancy Chevy, or move on to Lexus/Volvo/Mercedes/etc.? GM has to know from past experience that customers from lost brands are not coming back. They couldn't even sell Buicks to orphaned Oldsmobile customers when they were basically the same car.

Rationalization of the dealer structure is certainly in order. Perhaps there's no reason for Buicks and Caddys to have stand-alone dealerships any more, and GMC dealers may have some changes coming as well. However it would be hard to eliminate anything that's left of GM without abandoning a significant part of the market.

Dave: While I will not respond to anything that happened 40 years ago as I indicated I will respond to your response since it has to do with the original

post. You are correct when you indicate that GM might lose some total market share if they send GMC/Buick to "Boot Hill" but I do not believe it will be significant.

I also believe that their profits would go up if they make this move. To operate two "full blown" Divisions with so low vehicle sales is not smart. I do believe that

somewhere down the line (not to far off) that Chevrolet and Cadilac will be it. Of course JMHO. Thanks-Larry P.S. Caddy will survive even with low total sales

but it has such a huge profit margin.

Edited December 20, 2013 by llskis (see edit history)

[Guest Skyking]

Maybe what GM should do to gain more sales is have millions of life threatening recalls. It "strangely" somehow worked for Toyota.

[rocketraider]

Why are you guys talking about what went wrong 20-40 years ago? The thread was started over the potential changes to be made to today's GM.

Because what was done in the 80s and 90s set the stage for GM's current situation. It wasn't that they had too many brands, they had too many brands that were the exact same vehicle between grille and taillights, and the savvy customer caught on to that. Add in that what was between grille and taillights was often a poorly engineered and assembled product and it's no surprise their market share fell out the bottom.

Even back in the early 90s when the General first started making noise about shuttering Oldsmobile, I said GM eventually would be Chevrolet, Cadillac and GM truck.

But, the die is cast and people with way more business acumen and education than I have made those calls. I can voice my ire only by refusing to buy GM.

[Dave@Moon]

Because what was done in the 80s and 90s set the stage for GM's current situation. It wasn't that they had too many brands, they had too many brands that were the exact same vehicle between grille and taillights, and the savvy customer caught on to that. Add in that what was between grille and taillights was often a poorly engineered and assembled product and it's no surprise their market share fell out the bottom.

That much is certainly true enough. However the question at hand is what should happen re. "GM's current situation". Rehashing the past isn't going to be productive, and will have NO bearing on any decisions made in the GM boardroom (in as much as we can pretend to be suggesting things to them).

The truth is that today's GM, while still suffering from vexing uneven product quality, has 4 rather distinctive product lines/"brands" (I consider GMC and Chevy trucks essentially the same thing, despite efforts on their part to distinguish them). At least they are as distinctive from each other as the former GM divisions' products used to be. My take on it is does one expect the seed of today's Buick to grow into something in the U.S. similar to it's heyday or it's current status in China.

In other words, does GM today have the faith in it's products that it used to?:confused:

[rocketraider]

Dave, I would doubt they do. They don't have as many hardcore "car people" in their ranks as they once did, and without an enthusiast's perspective they'd might as well build appliances. Oh wait- they did at one time, and Frigidaire were fine appliances.

I'll admit past experiences with the local GM dealer have inordinately colored my opinion of the corporation as a whole. Fewer and consolidated dealers may make more sense from a corporate standpoint, but from a consumer standpoint it, to be kind, bites. All I know is you sure see a lot more out-of-town dealer badging on GM cars here than you did, say, even five years ago. There have always been "bad" dealers in every carline, but when the parent company basically cuts out consumers' choice... I just don't think I should have to drive 40+ miles to get decent dealer sales or service, but that's the way GM has set up its current dealer system.