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Help eliminate my ignorance of fabric bodied cars


MarrsCars

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Hi, this is one of those times a conversation sparked a realization that I have next to zero knowledge of something I have seen time and time again on lovely old motorcars, those fabric side panels (at least I'm guessing they are fabric). While photographing cars at our recent concours my friend and I noticed a couple of cars with the familiar textured, matte panels and it was suggested they were leather or maybe waxed canvas, but to what end? Of course Bentley Blowers I've encountered cause me to think this is fabric or an early vinyl type material over a wood frame for lightness, but I also seem to recall larger cars outfitted similarly that might not hold up to this explanation. I searched the forum and tried searching online but as I do not know what to rightly call the material or process I didn't find much relating to this topic. I'm interested in as much information as you folks care to share with me, pretend I'm a child or perhaps a curious ape, some would argue that's all humans are anyway, so be as detailed as you like!

The pics below show but one example of what I am referring to. The body looks rather solid, thick and full to me in the interior shot of the doors, not lightweight, so my confusion remains.

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...one of only two Duesenbergs i have ever driven!

Thanks, lots of info on Wikipedia for Weymann and all extremely interesting! Also, 100 extra credit points to you for the above sentence alone.

The article mentions some fabric was lacquered and polished to resemble metal bodies in a process termed Tôle Souplé. Can they be identified without prior knowledge just by looking at them? The article gives this 1930 Bentley Speed Six Gurney Nutting Weymann Sportsman's Coupe as an example of such a finish, just incredible to me to know that's a fabric body. I'd love to hear from restorers who have worked with these materials.

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Edited by MarrsCars
Added photo and info (see edit history)
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I know of the 3 Weymann bodied Duesenbergs, only 1 exists due to the fact they covered the hood as well and either the glue or the finish being laquer did not due well if you had a back fire thru the carb..........

Hence the remaining example is does NOT have its hood cloth covered. I would be curious how well the laquered finish holds up due to the flexibility of the cloth......

I dont think it would take too long before it looked terrible in several areas.

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Not all the Weyman bodies are fabric coated. Towards the end of their popularity they used metal covering over the Weyman style timber coachwork as the customers prefered the shiny finish of metal so this might be mistaken for lacquered fabric.

I have a 1931 Rolls-Royce P2 Continental which has an H J Mulliner body on it that was built under license from Wyman.

It has an aluminium skinned body up to the belt line and fabric above that. The tops of the doors around the windows are solid wood with the vinyl fabric fabric glued over it and the roof just has the vinyl stretched over the frame like other cars of the period. It also has the Sunshine roof. The car below is not mine but is exactly the same.

Weymann American, Charles Terres Weymann, Weymann bodied, Flexible body, Stutz, Duesenberg - CoachBuilt.com

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Edited by DavidAU (see edit history)
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West: You just made me recall a trip to that very shop in my high school days with a friend. I recall they had a white Bentley in that they had just finished a $200,000+ restoration on that was rear ended in traffic on the owner's way home from the shop. That is etched in my mind forever.

Keiser: What a fantastic car, I adore cycle fenders. My neighbor has a Morgan that I was just about to post an inquiry about in the Brit section that has cycle fenders and it makes the car look so much more sporty. Is this yours or do you know the owner?

DavidAU: Would you kindly post some photos of your car, or direct me to any online, especially any details of the body separation? I'm intrigued.

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West: You just made me recall a trip to that very shop in my high school days with a friend. I recall they had a white Bentley in that they had just finished a $200,000+ restoration on that was rear ended in traffic on the owner's way home from the shop. That is etched in my mind forever.

Keiser: What a fantastic car, I adore cycle fenders. My neighbor has a Morgan that I was just about to post an inquiry about in the Brit section that has cycle fenders and it makes the car look so much more sporty. Is this yours or do you know the owner?

DavidAU: Would you kindly post some photos of your car, or direct me to any online, especially any details of the body separation? I'm intrigued.

I grabbed that image off of the web.....isn't it cool? I WANT ONE!!

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The fabric body had quite a vogue in the twenties especially in Europe. There were several advantages to this type of construction.

The Weymann body made it famous, they were a very light weight, flexible body. The chassis of that day were not very strong, they tended to twist and flex. Car bodies had wooden framework and metal panels tacked on. They quickly developed squeaks and rattles, doors sagged and did not fit right etc. if the car was subject to hard use. They tried adding metal braces and reinforcements but it didn't do much good.

Weymann took the opposite approach. He got around the problem by designing a flexible body that worked with the chassis and did not suffer damage.

These problems did not become apparent until closed, sedan and coupe bodies came into common use. The open touring cars and roadsters did not suffer as badly, they could flex and bounce back without damage and you couldn't hear the squeaks and rattles for the wind noise anyway.

There were other advantages to the fabric covering. The material itself was light weight. It saved time in construction because it was easier to work with than metal, and it did not require painting. The finish was built into the material. This was a big factor when cars were painted by hand with a brush, building up coat after coat over several days.

As one French body maker pointed out, coach painting was a skilled trade and a good painter was not made in a day. These skilled workers were in short supply and demanded high wages. Painting was more costly, and more time consuming than most customers realized. Eliminating the painting step was a big saving in time and money.

The paint finishes were not very durable either. One of the features of the fabric body was that you could wipe it down with a damp cloth and it was good as new. This would scratch and ruin a painted car. They had to be washed very carefully with a chamois and polished and waxed regularly, even then the paint would only last a few years. The fabric finish went right through and would stand up to years of wear without special treatment.

So, the material was cheap and quick and easy to build. Also it was durable and practical in service. It was especially convenient for a small shop with minimal equipment, doing one off or custom made bodies.

As time went on, manufacturers developed stiffer chassis, and stronger all steel bodies. These bodies were stamped out on giant presses and were quicker to build, cheaper and stronger than the old wood framed bodies. Also better paint finishes came out like Dupont nitrocellulose lacquer, introduced in 1924. It could be sprayed on, it was fast and easy to apply and it was a lot more durable than older hand painted finishes.

For these reasons the mass produced car made the hand built, fabric body obsolete by the mid 30s.

Edited by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)
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Some of these materials were quite stiff, almost as rigid as sheet metal, more like a sheet of plastic or Masonite. They had to be heated with boiling water to be molded to the contour of the body. When they cooled they hardened to a rigid shape.

They also developed shiny finishes like a patent leather. This was the tole souple material referred to in the article. Tole Souple means flexible sheet metal in French. It was a brand name for a specific product.

I don't believe they painted any fabric bodies, it would have defeated the purpose of using the material. The first fabric bodies had a dull, matte finish or a pebbled, leather like finish. The smooth, shiny patent leather type material came later.

There were soft canvas backed materials, like a vinyl top material. These were used for roofs and top inserts up until the mid 30s, even on mass produced American cars. Model A sedans had a full vinyl roof, others just had a small panel in the middle of the top. Almost all sedan and coupe bodies were built this way.

Edited by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)
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Marrs

I assume by separation you mean where the aluminium skin meets the vinyl top material. If you have a look at the photo I posted above you can see the bulge line along the body above the door handle and this is a solid brass D moulding screwed to the timber frame and covers the joint in the materials. This moulding starts at the rear of the hood at about 1/2 inch wide and gets to about 1 1/2 inch wide along the doors.

The car on the truck with the open wheels is mine. Pictured when I first brought it home and it is now undergoing a full restoration.

It never had wheel covers fitted like the other car as according to the factory documentation it was originally fitted with full Staybright (stainless steel) wire wheels but these proved to be a problem and it was returned to the factory after about 12 months to have the normal spoke wheels fitted,

The car on the grass was sold at auction in the US about a year ago.

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Edited by DavidAU (see edit history)
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I can remember a 1912' ish Reo touring coming to our local show years ago. (Columbia Car Club.) It had a body that was made from a laminated material almost like paper, or tar paper. It was painted gray with black fenders and hood as I remember. I always thought it was very cool. Dandy Dave!

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It wasn't only high end cars that had fabric bodies, in the early 50's my parents had a 1932 Morris Minor with a fabric body, which a couple of young cousins pulled to bits one day when they were bored. :-)

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I can remember a 1912' ish Reo touring coming to our local show years ago. (Columbia Car Club.) It had a body that was made from a laminated material almost like paper, or tar paper. It was painted gray with black fenders and hood as I remember. I always thought it was very cool. Dandy Dave!

I remember reading about those bodies. They were made of a moulded papier mache or laminated paper material, stiffened with waterproof glue. They were said to be quite durable, I suppose if one lasted 50 years or more they must be.

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I can remember a 1912' ish Reo touring coming to our local show years ago. (Columbia Car Club.) It had a body that was made from a laminated material almost like paper, or tar paper. It was painted gray with black fenders and hood as I remember. I always thought it was very cool. Dandy Dave!

I had an unrestored... actually "untouched" would be a better term, 1911 REO with that body. It had held up quite well. If you didn't know what it was, you would assume it was wood. I also had a 1910 REO which did, in fact, have a wood paneled body.

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