Break in 264 nailhead

[Guest btate]

I have 290 miles now on my engine rebuild and today I was traveling up a 1/2 miles long up hill climb and my gauge went from the normal range to the bottom of the H. This is the second time since the rebuild that it run hot while climbing a hill.it is a 55'buick special. Is it normal for a fresh engine to run hot for such a climb. The a/c was off and I have a new modern radiator with electric fan.

[TexasJohn55]

That is hard to judge without a guage that reads actual temperature. Was your electric fan running and at what temp is it set to come on? It should be set at 10-20 degrees above thermostat rating to keep it off unless needed. I would recommend installing a manual temp guage if only temporarily to assess your perceived problem and monitor fan operating parameters,, and to get an idea of what your factory guage is really telling you. TexasJohn55

[Aaron65]

Make sure your distributor is advancing and your vacuum advance works.

[Guest btate]

T'stat for the water flow is 160 degrees and electric comes on at 180 degrees. How would I know if vacuum advance is working?

[NTX5467]

With a piece of clean vacuum hose, you can apply a vacuum to the vacuum advance to see if it will hold vacuum. If it doesn't, it can't work. A rubber diaphram inside of the housing is what moves the linkage to advance the timing when vacuum is present.

ONLY thing is that if the engine is under load, the manifold vacuum might decrease enough that it might not be enough to move the vacuum advance. Vacuum advances are usually more beneficial to lower rpm and part throttle cruise situations and increase fuel economy, not "under load" situations, though.

I would go to one of the tool websites, Harbor Freight, for example, and get one of their non-contact infrared thermometer "guns". You can easily verify the temperature at the thermostat housing, plus other areas of the motor and cooling system quite quickly and accurately. Sometimes, the gauges are a little "high-reading", which can be a built-in safety mechanism.

Please keep us advised.

NTX5467

[NTX5467]

As for the "break-in" situation, with a seasoned block, the "break-in" is more about the parts re-learning to live with each other again than anything else. The major issues would be the piston rings and cylinder walls "wearing-in" than anything else. A line hone of the crankshaft bearing saddles (and related items) can ensure a minimum of friction in the crankshaft main bearings. On a seasoned-block rebuild, bearings usually need no "break-in" time, but the sliding friction areas related to the piston rings do need some run time to be what they should be.

On a NEW, freshly-machined block, some dimensions will "move" as the block cures with use and hot/cold cycles. Certain wear points can be a little more critical, for that reason. This is one reason for the spread in the clearance specs for the various moving parts of the engine. Once fully seasoned, though, the block should not experience any "movement" of its dimensions with further use, so the machining clearances will remain where they initially were. This "no movement" situation is one reason that a "junk yard" engine is a better engine to build for drag racing, rather than purchase a new block and start over . . . if possible.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[Guest btate]

I have an infared meter and I used it when I set the radiator fan t'stat. The car also backfires thru the carb upon acceleration and sometimes while coming to a stop in gear, engine dies. I will check vacuum advance tomorrow. It is hard to start when cold. I pump gas pedal several times before it will start. I checked to see if I get a squirt of gas thru the carb and I do.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

She is running too lean!

Ben

[old-tank]

The dynaflow will also generate some heat, but an improperly assembled unit will generate tremendous heat. Check the color of the fluid on the dip stick.

[Guest btate]

Willie, I will check color of fluid. I hope this is not the problem, as that happened to my last car and had quite a roll back bill. The fluid was somewhat brownish vs a red look on my other car.

[TexasJohn55]

OK btate, Back to basics. What else was done when engine was rebuilt? Did it overheat before rebuild? When was new cooling system/radiator installed? How does it drive and pull now compared to pre-rebuild? Does it seem to have enough power? Did you have to make major adjustments to carb mixture or idle settings when first cranked up after rebuild? Have you checked intake manifold vacuum at idle? Have you rechecked initial timing with a light? Slow or incorrect valve timing will cause low intake vacuum readings and also affect performance and build heat. It is possible to have incorrect valve timing but still get ignition timing in range (ie: one tooth off on timing gear/chain set) The more information we have, the better the quality of responses to help you. Willie mentioned trans, your cooler was originally hanging off rear of trans and was coolant cooled. Is it still functional,connected, bypassed,replaced with air cooled unit? Just a few items to ponder. TexasJohn55

Edited April 17, 2013 by TexasJohn55
edited for spelling (see edit history)

[Guest btate]

After receiving the car from the fellow i purchased , I only drove it once. I am not sure the temp gauge worked. The radiator was installed after re build. Car does not have much power, as I tell people " it wouldn't pull a greasey string out of a cats ass" of course I don't really know how much power it should have. It was timed with light and set at 7 degrees. Runs and sounds better than 5 as suggested in the service manual. Will check intake vacuum and vacuum advance, fuel pressure and last will change plugs wires. Seems to me at least, when pulling out from a dead start, the engine set up a big roar and at first car is not moving much but then starts to moving a little faster as it picks up speed. The giant roar upon acceleration , I don't understand. I will play with the lean setting also.

[TexasJohn55]

Not all my concerns were addressed in your response. Check intake vacuum first, expect 17-18" Hg. I have been following your thread on wipers, could be the same problem, low vacuum. The roar you are hearing, is it intake induction noise thru the air cleaner? Are you taking off in drive or low range? If you are not familiar with the "feel" of a dynaflow, it may be hard to discern what is normal and abnormal. Please check vacuum first and report back with other information. It is possible for it to be low even with spark timing apparently correct. Recheck wires and firing order also. TexasJohn55

[Guest btate]

Didn't get a chance to work on car today but will tomorrow. I did drive 12 miles today and it died once approaching a red light it took several tries to start the car. I wonder if the vacuum advance hangs up and cause it to die. Engine starts to slow down and then dies. Sitting in neutral and rebbing up engine , it sound great. I take off in drive.

[Guest btate]

Ok, here is what I have found on the intake manifold vacuum! At 750 rpm needle jumped from 15 to 17 hg, at 700 rpm needle jumped 13 to 17 hg @610 rpm needle jumped 14 to 15 and 26 dwell, @690 rpm needle jumped 15 to 16.5 hg and 27 dwell. One thing we did was rotate the distributor to bring the vacuum up but we are jumping wildly between these numbers. We did pour some transmission fluid thru carb and will let it sit until Monday. this is all we tested. Did not check the vacuum advance. I hope this allows someone to dx the problem or is more test in order?

[TexasJohn55]

OK, ........................1-Low and pulsing manifold vacuum usually indicates valve problems, one or more, DO A COMPRESSION TEST, BY THE BOOK. It is also possible to have leaks at intake gaskets or fittings on individual runners, the compression test will guide you as to which it is. 2- Engine dropping dead after driving under load could be a fuel problem, starvation, but let's fix some other issues first. 3- Engine roar when taking off in Drive, could it be the transmission if it does not do it in Low range on hard acceleration up to 30+ mph? 3- You didn't say if you had applied vacuum to the advance unit with timing light on it to see if it functioned properly. 4- GO BACK AND REREAD ALL THE HELP FOLKS HAVE TRIED TO GIVE YOU IN POST #'S 3,8,9,11 AND 13. IF WE DON'T GET ANSWERS TO EACH QUESTION, WE CANNOT ASSESS THE PROBLEMS, WE COULD BE HERE NEXT SPRING FIXING ONE ISSUE AT A TIME BEFORE WE MOVE TO ANOTHER QUESTION. IT IS LIKE GOING TO A DOCTOR AND ONLY GIVING HIM ONE SYMPTOM EACH VISIT INSTEAD OF ALL. WE NEED A COMPLETE PICTURE, SOME SYMPTOMS MAY BE INTERRELATED. 5- WE ARE PLEASED TO HELP BUT YOU CAN'T JUST DISMISS A QUESTION EVEN THOUGH YOU MAY THINK IT IS IRRELEVENT (sp?) TexasJohn55

[Guest btate]

TexasJohn, thanks for your help. It seems time is short everyday and today we only got the manifold vacuum test completed. I will do the other test ASAP, possibly tomorrow I can do the vacuum advance test. I am hoping that I can take it to the NSRA show in Knoxville May 3,4,5, but if its not ready, I will wait until next year. I would take it to a regular garage but every time I do, someone does something to the car.

[old-tank]

Possibilities after following all your posts and conversations and issues I have encountered:

Wrong lifter pushrod combination (56 lifters+55 pushrods= too long) holding some valves open.

Gasket leaks.

Sticking valves from too tight valve guides....the oil you added should help.

The 322 harmonic balancer you installed and had balanced to the 264...timing tab on timing cover and mark on balancer may be different...that is why setting timing using vacuum gauge seemed to improve the vacuum (you started at 12?)

Original supplied timing chain was loose fitting and another was substituted so hopefully the builder paid attention to the marks.

What kind of fan do you have, air cleaner silencer, tach will help?

As noted above, do the compression check, function of vacuum advance

Willie

[Guest btate]

I had great plans today but little was accomplished. I spent 3 to 4 hours looking for a barb male adapter to screw in where I removed the vacuum line. I tried two Ace Hardware's several auto supply houses, and other hardware's. I could even take a plastic adapter if I could find one. I did purchase today a hand pump with gauge for the vacuum advance, a fuel pressure gauge, a water gauge to mount under the dash until I can trust the one in the dash. I did check the color of the transmission fluid vs new fluid and both are the same color. Should I add an separate transmission cooler with fan?? Willie, Kanter shipped a sprocket and chain and chain was too loose. Kanter shipped another one and it was too loose. By that time the Storm Sandy hit Kanter and I re ordered from Egge and they sent a matching set----chain and sprocket. My engine builder seem to be on top of it and I would think he got it right after he brought it to our attention the products as received would not work and he would not install what Kanter shipped. The engine builder builds a lot of racing engines, so I hope he got it balanced. Willie the fan I have for the radiator is 2200 cfm and that is all I can tell you about the fan. I am not sure if I know what a air cleaner silencer. Willie as you know I do not know much regarding the mechanics of a car. I am fairly mechanical minded but I have to do a lot of reading plus advice from this forum or I would be dead in water. Willie, are you saying I should time it by sound or what? I never thought about the timing mark may be different on the harmonic balancer. Monday I hope to find the fitting I need to test vacuum advance and also do the air test on each cylinder to see if each holds air. We can also check the manifold gasket for leaks, by using carb cleaner or propane to see if rpm's increase. I think we will use carb cleaner as it seems to me propane would be dangerous. Did I forget anything? Please advise. Bill

[old-tank]

Propane is ok, carb cleaner might damage the engine paint:eek:.

See what the actual temperature is, but 2200 cfm might not be enough. A 2100 cfm fan (Proform 67016 Electric Fan) was not enough (actually worse than the stock fan) when I tried it a year ago with a stock radiator...unless that radiator you have is significantly better.

An air cleaner silencer cuts down on roar from the carb. The 322 has a big bucket in front, the stock 264 has a big pocket around the sides of the base...an aftermarket cleaner with exposed paper filter will roar...some like that (called the testosterone effect )

Your stock cooler is fine unless you are towing in the mountains.

You can get the timing close using a vacuum gauge (some say that is the best way)...just rotate the distributor until you get the highest reading, then back off one inch Hg on the reading. The readings you have now should give good performance.

Willie

[TexasJohn55]

btate, I feel like we are overloading you with questions but we gotta ask em. My question "What else was done at rebuild?" was not answered. At this point I will "ass u me" that the trans was not rebuilt and is probably original. Question: "did you make any any major adjustments to fuel mixture or idle settings at initial startup?" I don't think I got a response on that. Question: "Is your trans cooler functional, connected, bypassed or add on air cooled?" I don't thick we got an answer except do you need to add one. I have suspicions about the trans, may be slipping or cause of roaring noise. Intake induction noise is more of a moaning/howling noise. Stock fan blades can make a roaring noise at very high rpm, you didn't say if it is still on engine or you removed it when you added the electric unit. I personally like a compression check because it is simple and quick, and the leak down test can be used to determine if it is a valve or cylinder problem after you identify which cylinder #'s are at fault. The location of the hissing noise is useful, ie: tailpipe, intake/carburetor or oil filler tube. Are you overloaded yet? TAKE NOTES, "THERE WILL BE A TEST TOMORROW!" TexasJohn55

[Guest btate]

TexasJohn, the engine was a complete rebuild and everything and I mean everything was replaced except crankshaft. My engine builder ask me to order the seats or chairs and new shafts for the rocker arms. The transmission was a complete re build by Jim Hughes as he will not work on just any transmission, just dynaflow. I have not touched the carb adjustments but my mechanics has adjusted several times. I piped the transmission cooler same as original. I did remove the under seat heater as being in this climate, didn't feel I needed it. The radiator is an all aluminum and a high efficient type. I did remove the original fan blade. Question! Should I do a cylinder leak down test and in addition a compression test? I had the carb rebuilt using the deluxe kit. I paid a fellow $280.00 for the rebuild. After we moved the distributor to get a higher vacuum number and poured some transmission thru the carb the roar didn't seem as bad and engine had more power. We poured the carb again Friday in order to sit over the weekend and see what it is like. Some said if intake valve is leaking will cause the engine to run lean and could cause engine to die.Some have told me to do nothing to engine until I get 500 miles on the engine. I now have 320 miles on engine. Do the valves adjust on this nailhead?? Does anyone know where I can find the connector to the distributor vacuum line? I can assure you I would fail the nailhead test.

[TexasJohn55]

Jeepers Bob!! YOU JUST PASSED THE TEST, WITH AN A+ ! I just think a compression test "by the book" is easier and the contributors to this thread might like to see the numbers.The leak down test on all would be nice and will identify source of leak on suspect cylinders. I'm sure we can find several posts stating what is expected normal on your engine for compression numbers. I defer to old-tank on your questions about valve adjustment as he was covering that issue, but worry about that after your leak down test on suspect cylinders Your trans performance still worries me but if it is not whining you may be good. Willie's suggestion about the tach would help troubleshoot that issue when taking off in Low vs Drive to determine if it is hooking up good or slipping. Are you or your mechanic going to do the tests on leak down and compression? Not important, just curious because alot of the "older guys have probably never done a "leak down" test. ( I hope I don't get flak over that remark ) Don't fret, You will have your pet running like a top in no time. TexasJohn55

[Guest btate]

TexasJohn, to do the compression test, I will removes all plugs and block open the carburetor baffles, make contact with gauge at plug opening and turn the starter with ignition and take reading. Am I missing anything for compression test? The leak down test I will bring piston to top dead center and mount the hand pressure gun and pump pressure up to ????? Psi. I was thinking about 20 psi but really do not know. I assume using a tach that if the engine is turning , let say 1200 rpm's and car is barely moving, we can assume the transmission is slipping. Is that correct?

[TexasJohn55]

Good morning Mr. Bill, Yes to the comp test, make note of the first reading, 2nd and then final reading on each cylinder allowing the same number of compression strokes for final on each. That initial reading is often the most important for diagnosing. Don't worry about squirting oil in the cylinders after inital readings unless you want to, leak down test will suffice. As for the leak down test, the test kit consists of a manifold, 2 quages, valves, regulator and usage instructions. Follow the instructrions for your kit. I noticed you referred to hand pumping up the cylinder, I wasn't aware you could do this. Most kits call for a supply source and I don't think you can hand pump fast enough to keep up with normal ring leakage. The tach will show if you have normal torque converter "flare" on acceleration or if you are slipping the drive clutch. Converter flare is predictable every time you throttle at the same rate and speed, you can also see the variable pitch effect at full throttle. If you are overrunning (slipping) the drive clutch from low pump pressure or clutch piston seal, the rpm will suddenly increase under hard acceleration, (but not full throttle). Later, John......PS: Addressing your question about 1200 rpm, that may be for very light throttle take off in drive from stop but I can't give any specific numbers. The rpm will vary with amount of throttle input and smoothly increase with road speed. You will see a pattern develop after driving some with tach.

Edited April 21, 2013 by TexasJohn55 (see edit history)

[Guest btate]

TexasJohn, forget my statement regarding pumping up the cylinder, I didn't know what I was talking about. I forgot I asked my son in law to bring in his rig to do compression and leak down. I do not even know what it looks like. I will be the one who does the test but I will read instructions first and get instructions from him before I start.

[Guest btate]

What a mess I found when I removed the distributor cap. there were copper shaving all in the distributor assembly, the rotor button metal tip was burn't off at tip, distributor cap copper contacts scored and the vacuum advance would not hold any pressure. I could blow thru to the other side of the vacuum assy. I found one finally at Bob's Automobilia $65.00 plus core chg. of $35. and plus 2 nd day ship and hope to have it Wednesday. NAPA will have the cap and rotor button here in the morning. I don't see how it ran period!! We think the car builder, not the engine builder may have trapped a wire under the cap and had it cocked in place. But, things happen.I always try to look behind everything if I don't do it or oversee it. We will have to pull compressed air to the garage area to work the pump on the leak down kit. I am wondering if it runs good and have vacumm advance, if I should do the leak down and compression test!!! Should I do it if car is run good? I have the distributor out of the car at the present and will clean it of shavings.

[Aaron65]

Wow, you'd think that would've made a tremendous clacking noise!

[TexasJohn55]

What a mess I found when I removed the distributor cap.............. I am wondering if it runs good and have vacumm advance, if I should do the leak down and compression test!!! Should I do it if car is run good? I have the distributor out of the car at the present and will clean it of shavings.

Good decision to check it! Willie aka old-tank also had a distributor problem recently that masqueraded as other than ignition, you probably read his thread. If it runs good with stable and higher vacuum readings, forego the comp test. BTW, factory recommended idle rpm at operating temp should not be over 500 rpm for dynaflow, causes very harsh engagement, as you may already know. Anxiously awaiting to see how it runs after the distributor work. TexasJohn55

[Guest btate]

Just picked up the new rotor button and it is exactly the same as the one we are taking out. Also received the distributor cap and it too is the same. Mounting both on the distributor the rotor button hits the brass tips on the bottom side of the cap, rotor button is fairly loose on the distributor shaft. It wobbles a little or a good bit I guess. As we examine the "old" rotor button appears someone tried to grind it down so it would miss the brass tips on the bottom side of the distributor cap. It didn't work for them because rotor housing bottomed out and no tolarance was gained. I wonder if someone changed out the distributor before I owned the car!!! The Delco Remy number is 1110849-5D8. I have not found anything on it yet. I am at my wits end with this car. I need to put something new(brand new) with no wear and I was thinking an HEI distributor. Any thoughts!!! Bill

[Roadmaster75]

Bill

Here's a link you might wish to explore if you find that the original distributor is indeed

messed up. MSD makes a self contained , ready to run nailhead billet distributor requiring no

outside boxes.... I believe you DO have to run the larger HEI grade plug

wires, tho.

I have used these MSD distributors on my Buick V6 and 455 engines for years

with zero problems. I know they are pricey...but, they work and work well.

Just an alternative suggestion....

All the Best!

mike

MSD 8524 Buick Nailhead Ready to Run Billet Distributor - Speedway Motors, America's Oldest Speed Shop

[old-tank]

Pictures of the distributor, cap, rotor?

[Guest btate]

Willie, Tomorrow, I can send you direct via email pictures but I do not know how to add to the forum. I did discover it is correct distributor as Hagen had it listed to fit 55' Buick special 264 ci.but they are sold out. I spent sometime on the phone with the fellow at Hagen and he said they can rebuild it but I got a show in Knoxville May 3rd and one in Nashville May 17th. He said I could shim the rotor with paper and it should now be straight and level. It should miss the underside tips of the distributor. I hate to rig something up like that but may be forced to. I could slightly file the brass end of the rotor just a bit too. What about the Petronix system? The two rotors and distributor cap are the same and ordered from different venders. I think the distributor is simply worn out and that is why I would like to have a new one rather than a used one. The vacuum advance should be in tomorrow. By the way thanks for all the help. Bill

[Guest btate]

What do you think of the MSD 8524 distributor? I called MSD and they said it fits a 264ci engine. I marked the distributor I removed but I wonder how hard it would be to get the MSD distributor at the right timing. I guess if hard to start , I would rotate the distributor until it started and then set timing. I think best to set via intake manifold!!!! Need advice. Thanks Bill

[old-tank]

Bill

Sounds like it is worn out! The MSD unit I have no direct knowledge of, but I am sure it can be made to work...probably overkill for that engine. I bet that someone in your area can find a serviceable unit...I can loan one of my spares (take along for cross country trips) if needed.

Willie

[TexasJohn55]

Bill, I don't understand the rotor button being loose on shaft and wobbling, it should fit snug. If you get the shaft diameter with calipers maybe we could compare that to known good component. I've never heard of the shaft wearing at button surface. TexasJohn55

[60FlatTop]

As a tip for the future, about 30 years ago I decided that any time I removed a distributor I would rotate the engine in the proper direction to bring the tip of the rotor 90 degrees with the firewall. I NEVER do it any other way. As long as no one moves the engine I am always good to go.

Bernie

[Guest btate]

John, it appears it was in a lathe and turned due to how shiny it is. Willie thanks for the offer but I am tired of not getting this behind me. One of the guys with me said many times people would take a piece of sandpaper and sand the shaft to clean it up. If that was done many times over the last 60 years, I guess that is a possibility of wear. Who knows. I will mike it tomorrow.

[Guest btate]

Bernie, that is exactly what I did. Pointing straight at the firewall

[TexasJohn55]

Bernie, that is exactly what I did. Pointing straight at the firewall

Or; mark distributor on outside at center of #1 plug wire boss, remove cap and transfer mark to inside of distrubutor with paint pen, timing mark should be close to TDC, piston is on compression stroke #1 cyl. This works on all car to R&I distrubutor no matter where your firewall is. T- ma- to, To-mah-to, Pee-can, Pee-con .

All the same ain't it? TexasJohn