Transmission Lube, down shift problems

[MikeC5]

I know these issues have been brought up before but I didn't see anything very recent on what works best especially when it comes to down shifting. I have some 80W-140 synthetic in there now and I just can't downshift (into 2nd) when the car is moving in 3rd gear. I have tried double clutching and it still won't go (just grinds). I did have the top off and the gears looked fine. I have no problem getting it into 1st when stopped. I'm thinking of using a 1000 or 1500 ISO viscosity oil in there. Any recommendations?

[R.White]

I would suggest 600w (steam cylinder oil)

Ray

[Guest 1930]

Ray is correct, you have much too light an oil in there

[TonyAus]

Mike

You have to remember that in the early DB transmission the layshaft is out of mesh when third gear is engaged. In changing down to second the large sliding gear at the front of the cluster has to re-engage with the stationary layshaft. The same thing happens when you shift from third to neutral. That groaning noise you get while idling in neutral comes from the large sliding gear.

All this means that a heavy transmission oil may help matters by imparting some movement to the layshaft through fluid dynamics. I use Penrite Transoil 250 (600W equivalent). However, my experience is that it is virtually impossible to change down to second at more than about 10 mph. Under that speed the technique is to declutch and engage neutral, re-engage the clutch and rev the engine hard, declutch and shift down. Hopefully you have not rolled backwards down the hill you are attempting to climb during this procedure. If you subsequently miss the shift you probably will!

[R.White]

Tony, I don't know anything about driving conditions where you are, but I have had to learn not to get fussed by the impatient driver behind. He, of course knows nothing of the challenges that I am dealing with as he sounds his horn and yells abuse. The usual taunt as he overtakes is "should be in a b###dy museum". It's all like water off a duck's back to me, but if the wife is travelling with me she can get a bit upset sometimes and will pass some typically unhelpful comment!

Pitty then, the participants of the (pre 1905) London to Brighton veteran car run who have far more to contend with than we do.

That wouldn't stop me from taking part though - given the chance!

Ray

Edited June 26, 2012 by R.White (see edit history)

[ply33]

I know these issues have been brought up before but I didn't see anything very recent on what works best especially when it comes to down shifting. I have some 80W-140 synthetic in there now and I just can't downshift (into 2nd) when the car is moving in 3rd gear. I have tried double clutching and it still won't go (just grinds). I did have the top off and the gears looked fine. I have no problem getting it into 1st when stopped. I'm thinking of using a 1000 or 1500 ISO viscosity oil in there. Any recommendations?

The faster you are going the harder it will be to get the double clutch operation correct. And as TonyAus mentions, a heavier lubricant does help some.

Mike

You have to remember that in the early DB transmission the layshaft is out of mesh when third gear is engaged. In changing down to second the large sliding gear at the front of the cluster has to re-engage with the stationary layshaft. The same thing happens when you shift from third to neutral. That groaning noise you get while idling in neutral comes from the large sliding gear.

All this means that a heavy transmission oil may help matters by imparting some movement to the layshaft through fluid dynamics. I use Penrite Transoil 250 (600W equivalent). However, my experience is that it is virtually impossible to change down to second at more than about 10 mph. Under that speed the technique is to declutch and engage neutral, re-engage the clutch and rev the engine hard, declutch and shift down. Hopefully you have not rolled backwards down the hill you are attempting to climb during this procedure. If you subsequently miss the shift you probably will!

I think it was pretty standard for American cars of that era to be in high gear from about 10 or 15 MPH and up. So it makes sense that down shifting at faster than 10 MPH might not be easy. My '33 Plymouth has a sliding dog clutch without synchronizers and while it is easier to shift that an earlier transmission with sliding spur cut gears it is a matter of some skill and luck to down shift when at speeds above 10 or 15 MPH.

Tony, I don't know anything about driving conditions where you are, but I have had to learn not to get fussed by the impatient driver behind. He, of course knows nothing of the challenges that I am dealing with as he sounds his horn and yells abuse. The usual taunt as he overtakes is "should be in a b###dy museum". It's all like water off a duck's back to me, but if the wife is travelling with me she can get a bit upset sometimes and will pass some typically unhelpful comment!

Pitty then, the participants of the (pre 1905) London to Brighton veteran car run who have far more to contend with than we do.

That wouldn't stop me from taking part though - given the chance!

Ray

I am amazed by this. While there have undoubtedly been drivers annoyed with my car holding up traffic, I cannot recall any being uncivil. And I have ventured into areas where perhaps I shouldn't have, like inner city business districts and freeways at rush hour. Maybe I am oblivious to the negative reactions, but is seems the usual response is a big smile and a friendly wave.

[R.White]

Perhaps, Ply33, the difference is between American and English drivers. I think some of the drivers here need anger management classes. Don't you get "road rage" over there.? Other victims of uncivil behavour are tractor drivers and caravans. Also, I think you have generally bigger roads and more passing places perhaps? Most folk are fine, but you remember the agressive ones more, I think.

Ray

Edited June 27, 2012 by R.White (see edit history)

[Pete K.]

Mike, All the responses are great, the 600W should work well. Downshifting is not on the checklist here in any of the early cars I drive. I rely on forethought in traffic, use engine compression with the brakes, you can take most corners even in third gear. I've been using straight STP in my transmissions, differentials and steering boxes with great success over the years. The STP people won't endorse using it in an old transmission because of their policies and they have no interest in the testing of it. Well, I have tested it. It doesn't foam, channel out or get too thick in cold weather for any noticeable difference. STP has a residual layer clings to the gear teeth that protects them better than the old style black oils that runs completely off after a while if left sitting. You can buy it anywhere, cheaper than other mail order lubes. I personally know a man who has been running STP in his 1930 Model A Ford trans. for tens of thousands of miles, including 2 cross country trips. After 5 years, he pulled his top shifter cover off and the STP was just as clear and clean as the day he put it in. The STP really stops those gears from spinning in between shifts. Like the cereal ad on TV 40 years ago, "Try it Mikey, you'll like it!" Best regards, Pete.

[MikeC5]

Thanks Guys. It's going down hills I worry about without being able to downshift. What have you guys used for brake linings? Is there something with a higher coefficient of friction than the original asbestos linings (that can conform to the band)? I am tempted to try the STP. Restoration Supply Co. has some 1500w stuff for $38/gal if STP doesn't help.

[Guest 1930]

Quote.............but if the wife is travelling with me she can get a bit upset sometimes and will pass some typically unhelpful comment!.................Our wives must have read the same chapter.

Quote.......... Maybe I am oblivious to the negative reactions, but is seems the usual response is a big smile and a friendly wave................Same response here but I cant seem to get the other four fingers to unclench..

Quote..........he difference is between American and English drivers. I think some of the drivers here need anger management classes. Don't you get "road rage" over there................Your kidding right, isnt the US the birthplace of roadrage??

Quote............... It's going down hills I worry about without being able to downshift..........Stop going down hills.

[fsnooks]

600 works somewhat OK.

I tried 1500 but when cold I had trouble shifting gears and had to wait for the engine to warm up. So what I did was mix 1500 with 600 which effectively puts it at 1000 and that seams to work fairly well. Patience is needed otherwise when shifting an old Dodge and no use in trying to rush it no matter how many 3rd finger salutes you get. I have a sticker in my back window - "I Drive Like this Just To **** You Off".

Also, if you have a leaky tranny like mine, The heavy oil seams to slow it down about 90%.

Good Luck!!!

Fred

[Pete K.]

Mike, I did notice when I read the '25 Dodge "Book Of Information", the use of the emergency brake may be used in times of need! Our old Dodges have a humongous rear wheel brake drum, internal expanding and external contracting bands. Using the original type "woven Scandinavian" lining material, with the little brass wires in them, will stop the car pretty well. I believe that is the only material available for the old Dodges from the vendors today. Moulded linings are not the way to go on a '25 Dodge, if they were available. When re-lining, chamfer the ends a bit. I hold the lining end against my bench grinder wheel, about a 45 degree angle, 1/4" in, on lining end. This will allow the linings to contact against the drum better, more braking area, without that "bump" at the cut end of lining getting in the way. When riveting, start from the center of shoe, clamp the lining tightly as you go, Use the right size rivet, to form a good mushroom on back of shoe. I could go on here but I think you already know all this. Maybe it will help others.

[R.White]

[quote=fsnooks. I have a sticker in my back window - "I Drive Like this Just To **** You Off".

....and that's just in your MODERN car !

Ray

[TonyAus]

Mike, I did notice when I read the '25 Dodge "Book Of Information", the use of the emergency brake may be used in times of need! Our old Dodges have a humongous rear wheel brake drum, internal expanding and external contracting bands. Using the original type "woven Scandinavian" lining material, with the little brass wires in them, will stop the car pretty well. I believe that is the only material available for the old Dodges from the vendors today. Moulded linings are not the way to go on a '25 Dodge, if they were available. When re-lining, chamfer the ends a bit. I hold the lining end against my bench grinder wheel, about a 45 degree angle, 1/4" in, on lining end. This will allow the linings to contact against the drum better, more braking area, without that "bump" at the cut end of lining getting in the way. When riveting, start from the center of shoe, clamp the lining tightly as you go, Use the right size rivet, to form a good mushroom on back of shoe. I could go on here but I think you already know all this. Maybe it will help others.

Yes, the Dodge does have a fair brake brake drum area, particularly if you use the parking brake as well as the foot brake. But this does not mean effective braking. Applying both brakes hard will lock the rear wheels. Forward weight transfer and relatively narrow tyres means that the rear wheels have little contact with the road - hence reduced braking and possible contact with stationary objects. Once this happens you can see why four wheel brakes became so popular.

I find it best to drive as if you have no brakes whatsoever. This tends to lower your expectations and engender a degree of caution.

[MikeC5]

That's a good way to put it Tony. I did manage to lock one of the rear wheels briefly with the parking brake which did surprise me a bit (although it shouldn't have due to the reasons you mentioned). Easy enough to avoid hills in Florida, eh Jason?

I changed the gearbox to STP this evening and will give it a try soon...

[Guest 1930]

We have big hills, course theres about a million tons of garbage underneath but whos thinking of the future

[R.White]

I did manage to lock one of the rear wheels briefly with the parking brake which did surprise me a bit (although it shouldn't have due to the reasons you mentioned). QUOTE]

I'm wondering whether a transmission brake would give a more even type of emergency brake. I have one on my Range Rover but I have never tried using it for anything but parking (which is what it's for anyway.) - might it do damage to the transmission? Jason, you may know the answer to this?

[MikeC5]

Is it a manual or automatic Ray? The Model T's primary brake is on one of the transmission drums. The innards of the planetary gear T tranny are very much like a conventional automatic with the exception that the bands are actuated via pedals/contracting bands rather than hydraulics. It may be the Rover does something similar for a parking brake.

[R.White]

It's an automatic, Mike.

The parking brake is basically a drum brake working on the propshaft.

Edited June 28, 2012 by R.White (see edit history)

[Guest 1930]

I did manage to lock one of the rear wheels briefly with the parking brake which did surprise me a bit (although it shouldn't have due to the reasons you mentioned). QUOTE]

I'm wondering whether a transmission brake would give a more even type of emergency brake. I have one on my Range Rover but I have never tried using it for anything but parking (which is what it's for anyway.) - might it do damage to the transmission? Jason, you may know the answer to this?

Im not sure Ray

[R.White]

What about one of those parachutes they use on dragsters?.....no, that would be silly. Maybe an anchor on a chain?....no, that would be silly too. How about I just try thinking ahead and drive within the car's stopping abilities?...Hmm.

Ray.

[Mudgy]

.....

Edited August 13, 2012 by Mudgy (see edit history)

[Guest DodgeKCL]

I'm of a mind that we move into the 21st century and use the lubes from today. I use SAE 90 in my transmissions and modern hypoid fluid in the diff. I mix in a slip additive called MolySlip G, the G standing for gearbox or gears, and have no problems even leaving the 'system' in freewheeling. But I do agree with comments that downshifting these old non syncro trannies is mostly a nono unless you are going very slowly. I pretty well go through all the gears long before I'm doing 30 miles per. And unless I have a crowd behind me, I just leave it in 3rd and put the pedal down about 1/2 way and wait on hills. These old cars and trucks have no horsepower but have bags of torque with their low rear end ratios. I find they will climb a moderate hill in 3rd at a reasonable speed you can live with if you're not holding up the local gentry. I live out in the boonies and have the time to wait. But I have to say I don't downshift into 2nd at all. I can't think of a single time I did and I was out last night. I know these crash boxes will do it, but the double clutching and humping and jumping isn't worth it. I recommend you just try to think ahead of where you will be in the next few seconds and keep your speed up and stay in 3rd.

I've had my pilot's licence for some 40+ years and I still remember how they described a safe pilot. There are 3 'positions' to mentally be in when piloting an aircraft. You can be 'behind' the aircraft and be almost physically several seconds behind the aircraft. This is an accident waiting to happen. You can be 'inside' the aircraft but this still is just an accident waiting to happen, it will just be less of a surprise. But the only safe pilot is one who is out in 'front' of his aircraft always 'there' before he and his aircraft actually get there. I have used this scenerio all my life since then. This is NOT a critical comment on any driving skills on anybody in this post. Just a passing comment on how I drive now and it helps me stay ahead of my gear shifting and keep up my speed without holding up traffic in my old stuff.

Edited June 28, 2012 by DodgeKCL (see edit history)

[JACK M]

I've had my pilot's licence for some 40+ years and I still remember how they described a safe pilot. There are 3 'positions' to mentally be in when piloting an aircraft. You can be 'behind' the aircraft and be almost physically several seconds behind the aircraft. This is an accident waiting to happen. You can be 'inside' the aircraft but this still is just an accident waiting to happen, it will just be less of a surprise. But the only safe pilot is one who is out in 'front' of his aircraft always 'there' before he and his aircraft actually get there. I have used this scenerio all my life since then. This is NOT a critical comment on any driving skills on anybody in this post. Just a passing comment on how I drive now and it helps me stay ahead of my gear shifting and keep up my speed without holding up traffic in my old stuff.

This is how I drive my dirt car. !!

[R.White]

Since 1986 I have been a member of the I.A.M. (Institute of Advanced Motorists). In order to pass the Advanced Drivers Test, one needs to be able to "read the road". Naturally, this involves judging which gear will be best suited to the road ahead; appropriate speed and braking also require forward thinking. If this all sounds like common sense; that's because it is. Strange then, that too few road users make use of it .....regretably common sense is not all that common.

Ray.

[platt-deutsch]

I put over 100 miles on my 25 this weekend. It has 600W in the transmission. I just thought I would try the downshift to 2nd from 3rd. I tryed it at 25 mph.. I double clutched it as I always do.. Had to rev the engine pretty good but shifter smooth as butter.. 20 mph worked better and 15 was no effort at all.. Just a quick tap on the accelerator to rev the engine.. no problems..

[MikeC5]

Thanks PD. That's a good data point I can test against.

[MikeC5]

I finally got out there and tested it with the STP in the gear box. The upshifts seem a bit smoother but I still can't downshift unless going very slow (speedo isnt working properly). What do you guys do when coming to a stop? Do you just wait until its going too slow for third and then shift to neutral?

[R.White]

Not wishing to labour the point, Mike but I still think you should be using 600w. STP could well help but it is essentially an additive rather than an alternative. Molyslip G is great stuff but modern lubes such as HP gear oil are known to attack brass bearings sometimes found in older transmissions and diffs. Penrite supply appropriate lubes for our type of transmissions (but I can get it cheaper; sold as steam cylinder oil).

Ray.

[Guest 1930]

Gotta use 600 W and even then your pushing your luck, cant quote it but I have read original manuals say use the heavy weight and then add grease to it on top of it? Sumpthin like that

[R.White]

In the old days they did mix oil and grease but a good oil modern oil additive is a better mix these days. STP or Molyslip will enhance the oil where grease will break it down after a while.

[MikeC5]

I'll have to give it a try (steam cylinder oil) but I have a strong suspicion that I will need practice, practice, practice more than anything else.

[fozz71]

Can anyone explain the time involved, in using a GL-5 gear oil, that damage will occur? I haven't seen any definitive evidence as to how rapid or slow the sulphur damage takes? The tolerances on these older trannys are big compared to modern high pressure units. So, if I use 90W or 140W in my gearbox- and I drive 50-100 miles in a year, how soon will it eat away my brass and bronze? Just curious.

Thanks,

Jim

[fsnooks]

I used 600W gear oil.

If you still have problems get some 1500W and mix some. 2/3s 600 and 1/3 1500.

[MikeC5]

I think I'll try that when I gt her back on the road in a few weeks...