Antiques Overseas

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Having recently seen R. White's interesting vehicles and posts on the "Cruise in" thread, and having recently sold a moderately priced collector car ('39 Packard off to Switzerland, thanks for another nice job, Tom L.!! ) I thought this may be something a little different to discuss.

I am hearing the prewar market is strong in Europe, for real world as well as higher end stuff. Besides my car I also see Matt H. recently sent one there, and another friend sold a T speedster to a European buyer. Personally, I have no qualms about this and would prefer the cars go to collectors who will keep them original regardless of where they happen to live (we have AACA members worldwide). So curious about the market overseas.

This brings up another couple of questions - how to they feel about modifieds overseas?

Any thoughts on "hot" eras, marques, etc. right now?

I really appreciate the European emphasis on driving their cars.

Comments?

[1937hd45]

Steve, Please define "Modifieds", the Aero engined Hillclimb cars in the UK and the Hot Rod/Customs in Sweden are very popular. I've sold a car to Italy and the sale went far smoother than some a few hours from home. PreWarCar.com has the market covered on this topic. Bob

Edited March 22, 2012 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Bob, you just helped me define it! Or, at least identify some trends. Sweden has some active Packard guys also.

He may pipe in here, but my friend's speedster is a "modified", right? I think that ended up in Germany or Austria but am not 100% sure. A really nice build.

Since the culture is different I would think collecting could be as well. I do check out PreWarCar.com also, probably weekly rather than daily here.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Steve_Mack_CT
spelling... (see edit history)

[Guest Good Old Days]

Who is overseas? You are and I am!!!:cool:

The market in Europe is a bit more calm then several years ago, but I see much interest from younger people in buying , what we name, brass era cars! This is a very good development in my eyes! All cars are interesting enough to be kept in good conditions! Quite some Dutch pre war car owners go to look for cars in the States! Off course Ebay is a melting pot of nice cars for sale and most of these transactions go very smooth with the help of reponsible shippers and a hand from the US owner ( thank you Mr. M.J.S. from Ph. AZ!

I own 4 cars which are overseas! I'm still very glad I was allowed to buy them and ship them down here, it most certainy makes the antique car world more interesting to have some good old 'overseas' variety!

So, our continent is welcoming US cars with their arms wide open, please keep on posting them on Ebay or Prewarcars.com!

It certainly makes my life worth while and we take good care of them! Here some pics from a French liason with Dutch overseas!!

Happy motoring!

Carine

1928 Studebaker Dictator Six touring

1928 Studebaker President FB sedan

1929 Studebaker Commander Six Convertible Cabriolet

1956 Studebaker Golden Hawk

1964 Studebaker Hawk GT

1974 Citroen DS 23 Pallas I. Automatic Borg Warner

1974 Citroen DS 23 Pallas I. Hydraulique (semi aut.)

and whatever more may appear one day.......:eek:

[Guest Good Old Days]

Steve, regarding to your question about trends in Europe, I can try to give you an answer to that! Although trends are very difficult to follow the last few years due to the economic crisis which hits nearly every trend!

There is a shifting going on between the fities and the sixties now, I think because younger cars are more affordable then the fities where prices are quite high!

Pre war cars is stil a very select group among us, but due to the hard and unappreciated work from pre war car clubs all over Europe, the young ones(!) are slowly turning over to pre war era as well. The twenties and thirties are still very popular here. Also the cars from which acquiring parts is easy, some English like MG or Jaguar, are prefered above the cars with parts coming far away! I do understand that! You have to grow into old cars I think! I grew up in one!

A real trend in Europe is to difficult to point out one, because we like many cars and eras, but special cars are always a headturner. The swap meets we have here are real and we do have gorgeous museums, like Belgium/Brussels, Louwman/ Den Haag and many more, not to forget many private collections!

We recentley had a tour in France (2011) and the local habitants were lyric about us driving these cars, we had a lot of fun for sure!! The road opened up for our wheels and we had the wind blown on our backs! (Thank you Marty for that)

Europe is like, the US, very different in landscape and there are many places to enjoy whatever old car. And we do so!Even modifieds;)

Carine:)

[414TATA]

Can someone give me an idea of shipping cost (i.e. a full size pre war car from West coast of U.S. to Italy?) I could contact a shipper but I am not at that stage of interest just yet. I'm thinking $3000 - $4,000. Close or way off? Any one know about taxes and import fees on arrival? Just want a ball park idea from the forum.

Thanks

Wayne

1941 Super 51

[R.White]

Hi all.

Leaving aside the market in old cars, just for a moment, perhaps I could mention how we in Britain categorise our historic vehicles. Only those built before 1905 are eligible for the annual London to Brighton emancipation run and are called 'veterans'. Those built between 1905 and 1918 are called 'Edwardians'.(after the monarchs). Those built after WW1 and before 1931 are called 'vintage cars' Most cars after 1930 are simply called 'classic' but for a select few, there is the ' post vintage thoroughbred' class (eligible for certain vintage sports car club events).

As an aside, we NEVER use the word 'antique' for cars of any era...likewise, the term 'brass' is also

not used.

The practice of customising cars was very popular in the immediate post war period due to austerity and these cars are known as 'specials' and have an active following particularly for hill climbing - which has historical significance. Of course there is a whole other world to do with historic racing cars and an element who are keen on historic rally cars. There are other categories, and of course I have not mentioned replicas, kit cars and the commercial vehicle sector - or motor cycles, but it's enough to be going on with I think!

I will endeavour to answer any questions you may have.

Ray.

[trimacar]

Interesting reading, Ray, on what the British call cars. On the word "antiques", you're more in line with furniture and other such things, as the true dealers consider an "antique" to be 100 years or more old, and these days, more probably 19th century and prior.

I'm fully aware of what HCCA does recognize as Horseless Carriage cars, but what an interesting tour it would be if cars up to 1918 were included. There were some wonderful automobiles built from 1916-1918, and they get lost in between clubs..........

[R.White]

The cars which we call 'Edwardians' are something of a similar Cinderella catagory here too. The Veteran car club of Great Britain do cater for them and they have some great meets. The only reason why they have not had the following afforded their older, pre 1905 cars is that they are not eligible to be entered for the London to Brighton run. When the Royal Automobile Club organisers (the Motor Sports Association) tried to widen the entry and permit 1906/7 cars a few years ago, there was a huge row and the organisers backed down. What is probably not realised is that a Brighton entry 1904 dated car is worth often more than twice the value of the same thing from 1905 !

Ray

[1937hd45]

I'm glad that 1904 build date is still enforced, no need to let late model stuff in that event.

[R.White]

It is my ambition to get a ride on the Brighton.

It is my dream to one day own my own veteran and enter it myself.

Ray

[1937hd45]

I'd be happy to stand along the road and watch them all drive by, that has to be the greatest Veteran car event in the world.

It is my ambition to get a ride on the Brighton.

It is my dream to one day own my own veteran and enter it myself.

Ray

[R.White]

Yes, the Brighton Run is the largest spectator event in the world with up to 600 pre 1905 cars entered. It is such a challenge that many cars fail even to start, let alone finish. There are often trials and tribulations on the way and the weather can be rotten but for the finishers the sense of achievement must be fantastic.

For anyone interested in how our hobby started they really MUST see the movie GENEVIEVE. It cannot be overstated what a profound effect this film had on awakening an interest in preserving our motoring heritage.

Made in 1953, GENEVIEVE, directed by Henry Cornelius and written by William Rose, it starred John Gregson, Dina Sheriden, Keneth More and Kay Kendall, in a veteran automobile race - based on the London to Brighton Run. Accompanied by harmonica music by the great Larry Adler, the two cars featured are a 1904 Darraq (Genevieve) and a Spyker 12/16 double phaeton. It's all about a bet on who would be first back over Westminster Bridge (despite the R.A.C. rules forbidding racing!) and is funny, engaging and very, very English.

The film won a BAFTA award for best British film.

Genevieve even has her own website; so if you think you might like to know how the old car movement was kick started then this is the one to visit. : DonBrockway.com

Never a dull moment.

Ray.

Edited March 23, 2012 by R.White (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

I'm fully aware of what HCCA does recognize as Horseless Carriage cars, but what an interesting tour it would be if cars up to 1918 were included. There were some wonderful automobiles built from 1916-1918, and they get lost in between clubs..........

Agreed wholeheartedly. There are many, many interesting cars in the 1916-1918 period that seldom get very much recognition or appreciation yet which make great tour cars and are still, dare I say...cheap. They don't have the flash of the brass cars nor the shine of later cars. They have never had a real home to call their own. They also illustrate a significant period in automotive history, the transition from literally hundreds and hundreds of "local" manufacturers to a relatively few national players. We are most familiar with Pullman. It the early years they built some fantastic brass cars but, like hundreds and hundreds of smaller manufactures they saw increased competition from the major manufacturers, especially Ford and in an ultimately unsuccessful bid to survive began building low horsepowed "assembled" cars. 1917-1918 was the watershed year with most local, undercapitalized makers going by the wayside. In the York, PA area there were 14 makes of cars and trucks built. By 1918 virtually all these manufacturers had been liquidated and the same scenario was repeated all over the country. Those cars deserve a place in the sun and the logical place for them is with the brass cars with which they share the most history and fate.

[50jetback]

Genevieve even has her own website; so if you think you might like to know how the old car movement was kick started then this is the one to visit. : DonBrockway.com

Ray.

Interestingly Genevieve spent some time in Australia and while owned by a local West Australian enthusiast participated in a rally from Perth to Albany ( about 500 miles ) which was named in the cars honour - The Genevieve 500.

Down Under

The event took place 20 years ago in 1992.

Just this week we have received a flyer which indicates the run is to be re-created as a fund raiser for the RFDS ( Royal Flying Doctor Service ) a few of us are in the process of filling out our " Expressions of Interest ".

RALLYING FOR A CAUSE

Three Day Vintage Car Rally

Perth to Albany via the Great Southern Highway

COMMEMORATING THE 20TH ANNIVERSARY OF THE GENEVIEVE 500

Register Now

In 1992 Paul Terry, the former owner of the Esplanade Hotel at Middleton Beach, Albany, staged the Genevieve 500, an international vintage race for pre-1931 vehicles.

The entrants came from around the world to drive their ancient vehicles flat out from Perth to Albany in the lower Great Southern with overnight stops at York, Narrogin and Katanning. People still wonder how Paul Terry got the powers-that-be to agree to a race on our open roads.

On the overnight stays the entrants not only made merry but spent many hours fettling their battered vehicles built for a more sedate era of motoring.

Any entrant around today who took part in this fantas-tic event will tell you it was a one-off - especially as Paul Terry died in a helicopter accident the following year, dashing plans to hold it every two years.

Twenty years on, the plan is to commemorate this magnificent event with a charity re-run including some of the original entrants and their magnificent machines.

Sponsored by WA Country Builders, the Great South-ern 500 will be a colourful and entertaining event run on the same weekend as the original event, hopefully with better weather - that weekend it snowed in the Porongurups!

Open to pre-1940 vehicles, this Great Southern 500 promises to be a heap of fun for participants and spectators, resurrecting the great memories of that unique event that many in the Great Southern still talk about to this day.

The rally kicks off in Perth on Friday November 16, 2012 and proceeds to York, one of WA’s most historic inland towns, for the first overnight stop.

Saturday will be the hardest and longest day for entrants and their vehicles as they travel down the Great Southern Highway through Brookton, Narrogin (lunch stop) then on through Wagin to Katanning, heart of the Great Southern, for their second overnight stop.

Gnowangerup will be the first target on Sunday, continuing through the Stirling Ranges and on to Castle Rock Winery at the base of the Porongurup Range for lunch.

After lunch participants will travel the last leg of the route into Albany, WA’s oldest town and once home to Paul Terry and "Genevieve".

All participants will join in community events along the route including the "Shannon’s Show and Shine" in York, Katanning and Albany.

A list of pre-booked accommodation options for each overnight stop will be provided with Invitation to Nominate letters to be sent out in May 2012.

This event is a fundraiser for the Royal Flying Doctor Service, so there is an entry fee of approximately $650 that will include a rally pack and donation to RFDS.

Accommodation will be to entrants’ own accounts.

Because of the logistics there will be a limited num-ber of invited entries.

Calling Vintage-Veteran vehicle enthusiasts!

WA Country Builders Great Southern 500

Flashback 1992: TVW7’s Susannah Carr and driver Graham Bates at the starting line in the 1904 "Genevieve".

Julian Walter, Managing Director of WA Country Builders, and the Puffer—his 1929 Blower Bentley—ready for the off in the Great Southern 500.

Gold Sponsors

Contact: Ash Severin, Event Co-ordinator

5 Claude St, KATANNING WA 6317

Mobile: 0448 211 411 Fax: 9821 1511 Email: ash@khhardware.com.au

[oldcarfudd]

The HCCA allows only pre-'16 cars on its NATIONAL tours. But many (not all) HCCA Regional Groups allow later cars - sometimes up to WWII - on some or all of their local tours. Examples: a) The North Jersey Regional Group has a mystery run every year that allows later cars, although its Run Around the Mountain and its week-long joint tour with the Southern Ontario Regional Group are pre-'16; The Old Tyme Car Club (an eastern PA Regional Group) has a one-day run in the Spring and another in the Fall that allow, and usually get, later cars although its 4-day Brass in Bucks/Berks County tour in May is pre-'16.

More important: The HCCA has a Nickel Era Touring Register that puts on tours for post-brass cars up through (I believe) 1931. It's a slow-growing group, and not without its detractors in HCCA (every human organization has its naysayers!), but it clearly has a future and, as some of these posts show, there's a demand for driving (not necessarily judging) events for later cars. Try talking to John Manifor in California. PM me for his phone number and e-mail address. You may want to establish a nickel group in your area.

Gil Fitzhugh, Morristown, NJ

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Great info guys, BTW how's about some action shots of those hill climbers or early car (to include veteran, brass, whatever!!) tours!

[Guest Good Old Days]

Hi Steve!

Just to be well informed, I don't want to step on other people tows again about brass equiped cars calling them brass as many others do, how do you categorize pre war cars in the US?

England has always been very strict about dating their pre war cars, why not? One of my friends (oldtimer?) has a Reo 1904 and he went through hell and back to get it in the London Brighton Run a few years ago, because the U.S. registration wasn't clear enough about the first registration of that car! 1 day makes a big difference! And quite some money too! I liked the car very much, I'm not a guy, but I'm giving you this picture anyway:cool:, BTW the owner is an AACA member! Joop, with this picture I wish you all the best with your battle against your ilness! And I hope you will participate in the London to Brighton again! I know for sure you will!!

Just as I will be back driving my Alvis 12/50 after my stroke!!

I really miss the spectators and the tours with pre war cars, whatever era! Just like the cars and seeing them drive around! That's what they are made for anyway?!!

:)Carine

[R.White]

Carine,

I regard the 12/50 Alvis as about the best vintage car there is; easier to drive than a vintage Bentley and better quality than many other makes.

My neighbour has a 12/50 tourer with the usual Cross and Ellis body. His name is Abe (or Steve) Stevenson - do you know him? He would like me to go on tours with my Austin Swallow but to be honest, The car , while being very attractive, is even smaller than a factory bodied Austin Seven and I feel desperately vulnerable; so I am looking forward to getting my right hand drive 1926 Dodge Brothers tourer on the road - I might even be able to keep up!!

Ray

Edited March 24, 2012 by R.White (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

I assume you know about the thread on the HAMB titled "Let's Talk Cyclecars", they may look unsafe, but they are having lots of fun racing them uphill. Bob

Great info guys, BTW how's about some action shots of those hill climbers or early car (to include veteran, brass, whatever!!) tours!

[RU22]

We shipped almost all our stuff to Europe some years ago

11-40Ft containers

There are folks interested in everything round us. Some great drives too.

Here is the web site of the guys working on some of our stuff.

Hírek

They do a very good job at 20% of the cost of work in the US.

There are new photos and projects added to their site all the time

[Guest Good Old Days]

:cool:Thank you Ray for the compliment about my 'hare', I own it for about 35 years now and recently found on this site the previous English owner who was looking for it since 35 years! I told him he looked in the wrong countries! I am a member from the Alvis Owner Club since the date they exist, I made an exception for the AACA to be a member, I don't want to be a member everywhere! There are so many car clubs which are interesting to me, but as I pointed out before, my stroke keeps me from living the way I did before and driving my old cars, I hate it!!!!!!

But although doctors told me I would never walk again, I walk, slowly OK, but I walk!

Who knows one day I will shift gear again with a left side I can control again!!

It would be the best day of my life.............

[RU22]

You keep pushing! Dr's told me " You'll never walk"

Last time I saw them they told me " You'll never run a 4 min mile!"

Keep up the good work:)

[Guest Good Old Days]

I just walked ouside on my husband's arm my second time today 23 minutes! In the morning 30 minutes in the sun!!

So driving must be easy compared to all this! I still need my stick to walk alone, but with the confidence I wil finally learn to do without!

Start Oxygen treatments 1st May, hope to do more after that!

Thank you my friend, you know where I'm coming from! But life is not over after a stroke!:D

Carine:)

[R.White]

I am so sorry that your health is not what it was but I know if you really want something enough and it's within your grasp, there is no reason why you can't achieve it. These days people CAN make a full recovery but I would never imagine it to be easy but if you are determined enough then it has to be worth all the effort.

I was also interested in what you said about clubs. I joined the Dodge Brothers Car Club because I was in need of advice not available in the U.K. - there are very few of these cars here. Another club is the Jaguar Drivers Club and I was invited to become an honorary life member - which I was delighted to accept. The Austin Swallow Register is not a club as such, but I used to produce a newsletter for it's members and eventually I joined the Pre War Austin Seven Club. So, for someone who preferred his own company, a love of old cars has led to a more interseting life than I could have ever imagined!

All the best,

Ray.

[Guest Good Old Days]

Ray, thank you again for your support!

I know my determination will finally get me back! Recovery is possible.........!!

In my eyes, when you are a member from a Club, you have to be active in it to keep up the club alive, they also can hand you good info on yor car.

In the Netherlands I am a member from the Pionier Automobiel Club, they only take pre war cars - 1940. Since my interest is wide in this range I feel myself in the right spot, when I took part in it before my stroke. Most of the members have several brands of cars, so there is always someone who helps you out!

My late father owned a 1924 Dodge Touring, originally from New Sealand. The man who bought it, found much info and help about the car there, they even knew the dealer that delivered it in 1924!! Finding info is he best there is! Where ever it comes from. That's why I prefere clubs with serveral brands, you can easily find someone with knowledge, like on this Forum! So great! Here an Austin Seven for you!

Happy motoring!

Carine