Guest Lasse Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I´m lifting this discussion (?) into a new thread for convenience sake.So, all you "front-end rebuild veterans", here´s my question:I´m going to change all of the following:upper ball jointslower ball jointsstabilizer link kitsouter tie rod endsstrut bushing kits upper inner bushingslower inner bushingsI have the wheel & brake assembly off, what shall I attack first and where to proceed? I´m looking for a sequence of events that will make the whole thing go as smooth as possible. Lower ball joint first, then the lower control arm off? Or upper control arm bushings first? And as a bonus question, what special tools shall I need? The ball joint press I have. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bigoldv8 Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 When I did this on my 63, I took the whole center link with both tie rods out as a unit and set it on the floor. I had all new parts, so that allowed me to set up the new parts to match the old. Not sure what your experience level is so forgive if you already know some of this:I think the order I worked was:1) unbolt tie rods ends from the knuckles and break free from steering knuckles; Since you are only doing the outer tie rod ends, you can replace them one at a time now, counting the turns as you remove the old ones from the adjuster sleeve. Install the new ones the same # of turns to get the alignment close. 2) unbolt stabilizer bar links (sometimes the old ones just have to be cut as they're too rusty to unbolt) & unbolt strut rods from lower a-arms3) remove springs (be careful here -there are various procedures for this depending on your tools, but safety must be first!). I'll leave the details out here but I typically use a jack under the lower a-arm and release it at the lower ball joint. Don't use cheap tools for this step!! It's too dangerous!4) Once the spring is out, unbolt the other ball joint and remove steering knuckle5) remove upper & lower a-arms - note the shims are on the upper A-arm shafts if you plan to put it back like it was. Count them and remove them carefully - there are different thicknesses. Put each set in a bag labeled for where they go if possible. This will get the alignment at least close, but with all new parts you should immediately have it aligned upon reassembly. I then took the a-arms to a local parts store with a machine shop (Napa) and had the ball joints and bushings replaced there. I believe the original ball joints were tack welded on, and the replacements are usually held with bolts. It was was something like $30 and well worth it.Assembly is the reverse. Be sure to lube everything once done. It's definitely easier to lube the upper a-arm shafts before you install them to the car. The strut rod bushings should also be replaced as you've noted, but I did not personally do that part on my car. I did not have the right tool so the shop that did my alignment did that for me for a few bucks. You may need a pickle fork set to break the ball joints and tie rod ends free. Sometimes you can do this just by loosening the nut (do not remove it) and whacking it with a hammer, but sometimes it is stubborn. Pickle fork will usually destroy the dust boot on the old part, but if it's being replaced that's not a concern. Be sure the nut is still on when you go to release the ball joint to free the spring!! You don't want that spring releasing too much tension too fast!! That can be very dangerous! Also, when you go to reinstall the springs it may be difficult if you car is disassembled - missing engine,etc - as the weight is not there to react to your compression of the spring for installation.Inspect your idler arm too. If it is loose, replace it. That has a big impact on steering feel and is not an expensive part. I did this work about 7 yrs ago so my memory is a little vague, but it's not much different from any old GM car so should be OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lasse Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 bigoldv8, Thanks a million for your long and detailed post. I was thinking of compressing the springs (I have access to a pair of heavy-duty outside compressors) when taking them off, but will there be a problem prying the lower end off the lower arm that way? And any other suggestions are still much appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bigoldv8 Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Lasse - I have never used a compressor to remove springs, as usually I find that they get in the way of accomplishing the task. It is certainly a safer way to do it, if the tool is designed in a way that allows it to work. All I can suggest is to try to put the compressor in there and see if it looks like you'll be able to get the compressed spring & tool all out. If the car is raised up enough, you can pull the lower a-arm down pretty far to give room. I have always used the "jack under the lower a-arm" method and have not had problems with numerous cars. Once the tension on the knuckle/spindle is released, it's safe. You just have to make sure the jack is stable under there so it won't slide back when the spring releases. Keeping the ball joint nut on there helps with reducing that travel. The only "violent" thing I've seen was when the ball joint separated on one car, it was just loud and sudden but didn't do anything. Others were a complete non-event. Good luck & BE SAFE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharknose1 Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 When I installed the springs they were too long to be able to set onto the lower arm to be able to just use the floor jack to compress them.I ended up using the upper shock mount hole and using a long 1/2" threaded rod and a 1/2" piece of scrap metal with a hole drilled through the middle.I also ground notches for the spring to rest.Put some washers and nuts on each end positioned the homemade tool and started cranking it down enough to get the spring onto the lower arm.Then put the jack under the arm, raised it to the spindle and put nut onto ball joint, loosened and removed the tool.Nice part was that I wasn't worried about the spring flying out during the process and have a tool that will be used again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rob J Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 If your replacing all of those parts, why not just go ahead and replace the inner tie rods as well. Also, most likely your center link will need to get rebuilt. You can send it off to Rare Parts and they will rebuild it for a reasonable cost. I, too second the replacement of the idler arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bigoldv8 Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I ended up using the upper shock mount hole and using a long 1/2" threaded rod and a 1/2" piece of scrap metal with a hole drilled through the middle.I also ground notches for the spring to rest.Put some washers and nuts on each end positioned the homemade tool and started cranking it down enough to get the spring onto the lower arm.Nice bit of home brew tooling! I have a pile of those sort of devices I've made over the years for various projects. I never get rid of them, but sometimes they get re-purposed later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1963 Riviera Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 GREAT INFORMATIVE POST,,,THANKS ALL ROUNDNick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lasse Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Michael, I had a good look-see at the whole murky business and you´re right, it looks like outside spring compressors are out of the question. The spring is only halfway visible, and I don´t see how I could get those claws on it. So it seems it´s going to be the old floor jack method for me. I´m not that worried about the lowering part, pushing the springs back up is the part that concerns me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bigoldv8 Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 You could always make a tool like sharknose did. That would probably make it a good bit easier. I was able to get mine back in with a jack - new springs in fact. I believe having enough height was key to getting them to go. IIRC I did not have the engine in the car when I did it, as well. :eek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 One way of providing a safety factor when working with a coil spring and you don't have access to any kind of tool is to secure a chain around the coil, and the control arms. Make a loop through the enire setup and secure the chain with a threaded link. If the coil does decide to come loose under pressure as you're lowering the jack, it will be secured to the car and not go flying across the garage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bigoldv8 Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Very good point. I have done that as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lasse Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Good tip RivNut, I think I´ll use it! Actually when thinking this bit further, outside compressors could do something to ease re-installation when the springs are out and long. Then there is a lot more spring to clamp into than the initial 6 inches there is now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bigoldv8 Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Just remember that you have to be able to get the tool "out" once the spring is held in by the a-arm and ball joint again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lasse Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 A very good tip again! If planning something properly means that the job is almost half done, then this thing has been done at least twice already! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rob J Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) Was going to suggest what Ed already did. Use a chain. I've used a chain, secured with a padlock with good results. You can't be too safe when it comes to coil springs. There is an incredible amount of stored energy in those things while compressed. Edited February 19, 2012 by Rob J typo (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTX-SLPR Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I've used outside coil compressors on my '64 but it was mainly so that I could get the spring out without having to put it higher than I wanted on the jackstands. I just put them on the exposed section of the spring and tightened them down while the weight as still on them till they started to move a bit then popped the balljoint with the spring chained to the lower control arm and a jack under the ball joint. You'll need to pull the brake backing plates to get it completely free. Just lower it slowly to the ground and the spring compressors should have taken enough slack out that you can actually pull the jack out and let the arm go to the floor then finagle the spring out. Putting them back in you can use the same trick but be sure to count the coils you clamped so you don't get the compressors stuck in the spring pocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gearheadjohn Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 One way of providing a safety factor when working with a coil spring and you don't have access to any kind of tool is to secure a chain around the coil, and the control arms. Make a loop through the enire setup and secure the chain with a threaded link. If the coil does decide to come loose under pressure as you're lowering the jack, it will be secured to the car and not go flying across the garage.Just as this man said Please secure your spring, had a good friend of mine spend a long afternoon in the hospital with broken ribs when a spring ejected into his chest. And that was with a outside spring compressor. A bicycle lock wire rope coated type works great for securing the assembly to the frame rail if you want to protect the finish on any of your parts. I most recently used a boat load of super heavy duty cable ties to install a set of springs, took a while to put on and cut off but at 200lb break strength each they were safe.Edit: Typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lasse Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Update & more questions:Spent a nice day taking apart the front end, even got the spring out without casualties. Found out that the lower control arm bushing is just the kind of ***** I thought it would be, so any advice or tips on getting it out without going insane are appreciated.Also, found out (as told earlier on this thread) that the upper ball joints are indeed tack welded on. If I cut them loose, how should the new joints be put in then? Do they have to be welded on also, or is there something else I can do?Lasse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bigoldv8 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 I believe, and it's been quite a while, that I had to make a tool to get the lower bushing out. Something along the lines of a steel cup made out of a piece of steel tube welded to a flat piece, with a hole drilled in the middle of the flat. Insert a threaded rod through the bushing & the cup with a nut on the flat end and a nut and large fender washer smaller than the bushing on the bushing end. The large side of the bushing should fit into the cup. Tighten it down until it pulls the bushing out into the cup. I found a picture of something online similar to what I'm thinking of. It's been so long since I did that work on my Riv that I'm not positive, but pretty sure that's what I did.Take a look at your new ball joints to determine how to reinstall them. Often the new ones are designed so they can be bolted on rather than tack welded. As I mentioned above I had a local machine shop (at Napa) do mine for a few bucks and it was well worth it. They did the upper shafts/bushings and the ball joints after I had them off the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) I found something very similar on a Jeep website one time. I think the guy used a socket close to the same size as the bushing as the "pusher" in his home made tool. He had a pipe the same size as the bushing's housing then used a long bolt and the socket to pull the bushing into the pipe. Lots of soaking in some rubber penetrant will help too. As you push, the bushing will compress and expand if you can't get it to slide. Expansion makes it that much harder to get out. One of the best rubber lubricants you can (could) get was Ru-Glyde. I think the only places that use it now are tire shops. They use it to lube the rubber when mounting tires. One thing that might help would be to driil a couple of holes through the rubber before trying to force it out; the rest of the bushing then might collapse against itself instead of pushing against the housing.Ed Edited February 24, 2012 by RivNut (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lasse Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Thanks all around again for the tips. Made a tool also, see pic! Works like a charm.The problem with tack welding the ball joints is that it´s forbidden in Finnish law and could lead to failure in the inspection. I´ll need to be a bit crafty. How common is it to have tack welded balljoints in cars of this era? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bigoldv8 Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Nicely done! It's very common for the original ball joints to be welded on vehicles. I believe it was a concession to speed on the assembly line. All of the replacements I've seen are designed to be bolted on in some way, but some folks will weld them if they are building a true show car. I'm not sure how it is in Finland, but generally here in the US cars are only expected to meet the requirements of the date they were built, even if restored later. So a 1963 vehicle doesn't have to have seat belts, door impact bars, 5mph bumpers, etc. which were things that were made into law later. They are also exempt from "smog" testing in many places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anestech* Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 Gonna revise this old thread. Just did 2” jamco springs, quick ratio steering box from TelRiv, and front end rebuild kit (except reaction rod bushings which are on backorder) which just includes outer tie rod ends for the steering. It seems like Rare Parts is the best option for the center link. What about the inner tie rod ends and idler arm? Best sources? Also, our body bushings are pretty trashed. OPGI has a kit, but does anyone have other options? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 I got body bushings for my 64 from CARS. I thought they were great. You won't find that oblong bushing for the back ones, but round ones work must as well. I think one member made his own using hockey pucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 My '64 still has the original oblong rear mounts. The old ones were not crushed at all. There is very little weight in that area and if they are not dry rotted they can probably be reused like I did. The mounts that take a rear beating are the ones at the top of the arch over the rear axle and the four at the cowl mount. I had the frame out from under mine around 1994. I just went to the Chevy dealer and bought mounts listed for a mid-70's Chevy Impala. They worked out fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anestech* Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 All the rubber on our car is pretty dry rotted. It’s a desert car, so no rust, but most of the rubber is done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 Be sure to replace the lower inner control arm bushings. I made a brass driver for mine but the last time looked for it, well, I could have sworn it was in one of two places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anestech* Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 I didn’t actually do that yet. The press we had wasn’t adequate. One of my upper UCA bolts was bent (assuming from an accident) so I’ll tackle when we replace that and the rest of the steering. Or just have my alignment shop do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobileparts Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 Anestech, Since you are on this 2012 thread presently, What car are you planning on doing? I may have the Center Link, Inner & Outer Tie Rods, and Idler Arm N.O.S. Very U.S.A. made....... Always best to simply call me -- Craig -- 516 - 485 - 1935..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KongaMan Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 You can replace the LCA bushings with a ball joint press and suitable adapters. It only takes a couple of minutes. Go to AutoZone and borrow the press and every adapter they have. There's more than one workable combination in there. And when you put it back together, don't torque the bolts until the front end is weighted. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anestech* Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 14 minutes ago, mobileparts said: Anestech, Since you are on this 2012 thread presently, What car are you planning on doing? I may have the Center Link, Inner & Outer Tie Rods, and Idler Arm N.O.S. Very U.S.A. made....... Always best to simply call me -- Craig -- 516 - 485 - 1935..... It’s for a 64. Price? Feel free to PM me if you don’t want to show publicly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 Ryan, Most times the upper ball joints are OK. The inner tie rods are also usually OK. Just see if they have any play & are loose. I have a used center link from a '64 that came out of a Riv. with 52K on it that is still nice & tight. The idler arm is also tight. I will install grease fittings in the center link.. DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES USE A HIGH PRESSURE GREASE GUN TO LUBRICATE THE FITTINGS. ONLY a hand gun, NO HIGH PRESSURE. The reason is the link will separate & now be N/G. Even if you have it rebuilt it will come with grease fittings & it will come apart also. Just a FYI to let you know. I've had to replace quite a few in the past because of this. I will also have an original bolt. Just need to identify with a picture to make the correct choice. I ALSO have the Poly strut rod/reaction rod bushings which I will modify for you so you DON'T have to mess with it.. And how about the lower control arm bump stops??? IF needed I have them also. Let me know. Tom T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anestech* Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 Thanks Tom, The reaction rod bushings I ordered from CARS back in October are supposed to finally ship this week, and I just ordered a control arm bolt from them as well. My uppers were in worse shape than the lowers, and the outer tie rods were shot too. I’m assuming all original since we had to grind the welds off the uppers to remove. I’m wanting to replace the rest just based on the condition of the other parts. PM me prices for the center and idler please. Do you have inners? Those aren’t too expensive for new if not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 26 minutes ago, anestech* said: Thanks Tom, The reaction rod bushings I ordered from CARS back in October are supposed to finally ship this week, and I just ordered a control arm bolt from them as well. My uppers were in worse shape than the lowers, and the outer tie rods were shot too. I’m assuming all original since we had to grind the welds off the uppers to remove. I’m wanting to replace the rest just based on the condition of the other parts. PM me prices for the center and idler please. Do you have inners? Those aren’t too expensive for new if not. Surprised reaction rod bushings are hard to get?? I bought a pair through my local auto parts store last year, called in the AM and had them in the PM, Moog...maybe they are discontinued now? Tom Mooney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 I would just get new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 (edited) Rock Auto MOOG K5186 $20.79 If nothing else, get the Moog part number and give it to your local jobber. Some kid trying to look up stuff for a 64 Buick Riviera isn't going to find it in his computer. Get the manager to look up part numbers that you supply him. Edited December 10, 2019 by RivNut (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skitch Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 Ok...here we go ..63 Rivi idler arm ...I see many vendors selling for$$$+. And none look like the unit in my. Riv. ..mine has a large nut that is adjustable..appears to be for clearance of the center link to oil pan ....not that I need original parts ....but 150-200 is a bit out of control...anyone have incite on replacement PN for the idler arm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NC1968Riviera Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 1 hour ago, skitch said: anyone have incite on replacement PN for the idler arm It's enough to 'incite' a riot at those prices! Thanks for the 'insight'! (teasing you btw) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 (edited) Your insight is inciteful. 😎 Try Kanter Auto parts. Edited February 18, 2020 by RivNut (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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