Epoxy for wood rib repair ?

[nick77]

In my 1930 Chrysler I need some repairs done to some of the ribs and door frames before I start the interior. Is it ok to strengthen the wood with West Systems epoxy, only on the non-visable pieces behind the linings?

[auburnseeker]

I've done boat restoration in the past. I used this by request of a customer after replacing most of the worst wood. The entire transom and rear structure. I still don't like it. If the wood is weak it should be replaced. Epoxy is just a bandaid over a problem. Maybe since the car isn't exposed to moisture like a boat you will be OK. I learned from a very old boat builder and he was replace what's bad not try to use magic on it.

[Paul Dobbin]

I've restored cars with lots of wood before and can agree with both previous posters.

1. Really bad wood should be replaced.

2. Epoxy is fine for minor unseen wood that is not real structural.

Model T's get all new wood because the body strength comes from

wood structure covered with metal. If the structure in GM cars is basically solid, I'm in favor of fixing instead of replacing. I've also used a Minwax product called "Woodhard" (Always lasts more than 4 hours). A lot of the wood in old cars is for tacking upholstery to and can be Epoxied of "Hardened" and be just fine.

Wood frame doors, door posts and cowls need to be strong and anything that accomplishes that is OK with me, but beware of the patch being more than 50% of the structure. Patched are permanent, wood is subject to more rot. Patches are only good if they are attached to solid wood (Not to rotten wood)

[keiser31]

Any repairs larger than a dime and the wood should be replaced. Especially if near screws or bolts.

[Restorer32]

Epoxy is fine but it ain't restoration.

[nick77]

What type of wood is inside the door frame and body panels? Also there is two types of exposed wood on the dash and window casings, any idea what that would be?

So Many Questions Nick

[old car fan]

if it is bad ,replace it,wood rot is like rust,cut it out ,There are several joints in wood ,that you can dutch in that are as strong ,or stronger than original,some what simple tools

[old car fan]

Any tight grained hardwood,as for as the non structural ,i guess it depends There are many newer wood joints that are stronger than the old joints.By all means, replace the wood ,epoxy is just like bondo,it fails

[keiser31]

They used kiln dried ash and oak a lot.

[old car fan]

spot on,maple is also good

[old car fan]

I have seen oak in many cars ,but was tight grained

[keiser31]

I have seen oak in many cars ,but was tight grained

Me, too.

[Larry Schramm]

Most car manufacturers used what wood was locally available. It could be any type of harder wood.

[Ivan Saxton]

There was a feature on late 1920's body timber framing a long time ago. From memory "ash" was used for the base pieces that boyed onto the chassis. There were different timbers used for different purposes. I'll try to dig out the item, but if anyone can talk to Bernie Weis he should know exactly when it was.

One point to note was that the accuracy to which individual pieces were cut for fitting was 15 thou, or 1/64th of an inch!!!!!

Pierce Arrow made effort to ensure the bodies that they built were beyond reproach. And few people probably realise that the only components of the series 80 cars which they actually made themselves were the engine and the body.

When I showed my father some of the timber pieces from the doors of my Roamer Duesenberg he identified the timber as sycamore. In 1937-8 when he and my mother travelled in USA, Canada, and parts of Europe after they were married, he naturally took a deep interest in ntimbers and timber-milling, because that had been his work and his business for over 20 years then.

The old growth Mountain Ash that he was milling had on average excellent properties for car body frames, particularly as it came from old growth stands of trees up to 300 ft tall and 20 ft diameter at the butt above the spurs. (After the war he had to select a special shipment of sesoned mountain ash for one room of the home Britain built for General Bernard Montgomery using a disused mill).

You should be able to find a table of properties of your local timbers that would

help you to choose what you prefer to use. You choose types in the medium range of densiy. You generlly want straight, tight grain timber that does not indent, is good to cut and will hold screws and nails without tendancy to split. Reasonable properties of steam bending can be handy, but rot resistance is probably not vital because we have means of chemical protection , and no-one is ever going to leave a restored car sit in the weather.

You will find that a spoke shave with a convex surface is excellent for hand shaping inside curves. And a small angle grinder with a new coarse flap-wheel is excellent for freehand shaping. The same angle grinder becomes a very dangerous weapon for slashing flesh and bone if you try to use one of those steel shaping discs which have teeth like a chain saw.

It is not likely to be useful to try reinforcing deteriorated timber assemblies with epoxy. If you have rotted joints or sections that are still in shape and alignment you can pre-treat with acetone, which should remove any absorbed water as it evaporates. You then treat with a mixed epoxy which has been sufficiently diluted with acetone so that it will soak right through the dry rot to where the timber is sound.

[nick77]

Thanks this has been very helpful, it sounds like I need to pick my battles. Some Epoxy for minor repairs and total replacement for bigger damage.

Thanks again Nick

[trimacar]

If you really want to save the old wood, and it's intact but soft, then Kwik-Poly will do it.

It's a two part mix, very free flowing, that soaks well into the wood. It hardens very quickly (2 or 3 minutes), so you only mix a small amount at a time. It will soak into the wood, harden, and be stronger than the wood was originally.

It may not be "restoration" as much as "preservation", but for those hard to replicate pieces it sure does the trick.

No, I don't own interest in the company that makes it!

[rhb1999]

I've done boat restoration in the past. I used this by request of a customer after replacing most of the worst wood. The entire transom and rear structure. I still don't like it. If the wood is weak it should be replaced. Epoxy is just a bandaid over a problem. Maybe since the car isn't exposed to moisture like a boat you will be OK. I learned from a very old boat builder and he was replace what's bad not try to use magic on it.

I thought they replaced ribs and other lumber on cars with sawn and steam bent lumber, epoxy is for boats and should be used on boats that have no historical valve. For instance you wouldn't want to use epoxy on a 1915 Old Town canoe. Cars of this era could be liken to the canoe. So one would have to decide whether epoxy would be appropriate from a authenticity point of view. As far as boats, I worked at Huckins Yacht Corporation (Jacksonville, Florida) for years as well as other boatyards. Huckins built double diagonal planked mahogany wooden boats from WW2(PT boats) to 1974. They used a glue they called resorcinol with phemaldehyde as the catalyst in laminating of the planking because it was suppose to be water-proof. They stopped using it within a couple of years of me being there. From then on they used epoxy, BUT only with NEW wood in the repairs of their wooden boats. As far as it being a only band-aid, I personally have worked on putting entire NEW bottoms using NEW WOOD on double diagonal hulls as long as 40"-58" with no problems. BUT we are talking about cars and not boats, AND the trouble with epoxy as well as bondo is, people ABUSE it, they think they can soak bad, rotten wood with it and restore it to like new, and I guess people with cars can do the same thing. REPLACE ALL BAD WOOD.

[Guest 36chev]

If you really want to save the old wood, and it's intact but soft, then Kwik-Poly will do it.

It's a two part mix, very free flowing, that soaks well into the wood. It hardens very quickly (2 or 3 minutes), so you only mix a small amount at a time. It will soak into the wood, harden, and be stronger than the wood was originally.

It may not be "restoration" as much as "preservation", but for those hard to replicate pieces it sure does the trick.

No, I don't own interest in the company that makes it!

I second trimacar. When I got the 36 Chevy in 1983 there was wood with surface rot in the lower body plate and door jamb. I used Kwik-Poly and have not had any problems.

[old car fan]

TRIMACAR SEEMS TO BE ALWAYS CORRECT,QUICK POLY IS GREAT fOR CERTAIN THINGS

[trimacar]

Aw, shucks, I'm blushing......

One more note on wood for bodies. I replaced some wood in a 1935 Pierce coupe, it was originally white ash, and that's what I used for replacement pieces.

The beauty of white ash is that, when it's fairly "green", it works easily, easy to cut and shape.

In a year, it's hard as iron. Well, not quite, but it becomes darn hard once it's seasoned a mite. This makes it a great choice for body structure.

[old car fan]

Trimacar,what happens when it drys out,if it is green?Not cars here ,but a 8 foot high log wall ,newer wood,will shrink 1/2 a foot of wall ,.So if you are building a door,or say top bows ,wood moves and always will,How do you allow for that,and how much moisture is allowed

[Restorer32]

We rewood cars on a regular basis. We use only kiln dried ash. For conv top bows we use red oak as original. Contrary to what you might think kiln dried wood steams and bends much better than green or partially green stock. Steam bent wood was seldom if ever used in body construction. The Brits see oak as the kiss of death in auto bodies, rightly or wrongly, and I am told they shy away from purchasing cars framed in oak. Packard specified "selected hard woods" and the vast preponderance of original wood we have seen has been ash with maple now and then as well as mahogany and I suspect, some oak. Ash is equivalent in price to oak and much nicer to work with. It is not nearly as "stringy" as oak and cuts and machines crisply. Some people can have an allergic reaction to ash. Your experience may vary.

[rhb1999]

We rewood cars on a regular basis. We use only kiln dried ash. For conv top bows we use red oak as original. Contrary to what you might think kiln dried wood steams and bends much better than green or partially green stock. Steam bent wood was seldom if ever used in body construction. The Brits see oak as the kiss of death in auto bodies, rightly or wrongly, and I am told they shy away from purchasing cars framed in oak. Packard specified "selected hard woods" and the vast preponderance of original wood we have seen has been ash with maple now and then as well as mahogany and I suspect, some oak. Ash is equivalent in price to oak and much nicer to work with. It is not nearly as "stringy" as oak and cuts and machines crisply. Some people can have an allergic reaction to ash. Your experience may vary.

I can see why steam bent wood would be seldom used, the only place I can see using it is for the roof bows, but the arch or radius I'm guessing isn't that much to require steaming, with boats white oak is used. Mahogany? I'm thinking Honduran or African. Ash is still hard or harder, and your right is not as stringy. Talking about allergic reactions, working at the boat yard some people couldn't get near epoxy because they would break out in a rash so bad that their skin would look like raw meat or their eyes would start to swell shut. One man had to go to a doctor and get a prescription for the condition and he had to keep taking the medicine for as long as he worked there.

[Restorer32]

Any mahogany we have seen has just been a piece here and there. Had a '28 Cadillac Phaeton here where someone used treated lumber to make a repair.

[trimacar]

Well answered on the ash, much better than I could have done.....

I have only limited experience replacing a few pieces, I sold a '36 Pierce convertible coupe because it needed all wood replaced, and was too big a job.

Oh, and it'd been hit by a train in the front end (seriously), but that's another story.......

[Restorer32]

We rewooded an L-29 Cord Conv Coupe years age that had 103 individual pieces of wood in the body, not including the doors or the rumble lid.

[rhb1999]

If you really want to save the old wood, and it's intact but soft, then Kwik-Poly will do it.

It's a two part mix, very free flowing, that soaks well into the wood. It hardens very quickly (2 or 3 minutes), so you only mix a small amount at a time. It will soak into the wood, harden, and be stronger than the wood was originally.

It may not be "restoration" as much as "preservation", but for those hard to replicate pieces it sure does the trick.

No, I don't own interest in the company that makes it!

FYI, West System comes in fast, slow, extra slow and clear coating hardeners. As well as fillers (thickeners) and pigments. The epoxy and hardener containers can be used with pumps. www.westsystem.com And no, I don't own any of it's stock either.

[Ferryt]

Hi!  If you have any doubts about using epoxy for wood there's a great article about choosing the one you need https://profyhome.com/best-epoxy-for-wood/ . It helped me a lot... so consider it

[Locomobile]

On 9/3/2011 at 8:12 PM, nick77 said:

What type of wood is inside the door frame and body panels? Also there is two types of exposed wood on the dash and window casings, any idea what that would be?

So Many Questions Nick

 

From my experience, very early carriages, the wood used mostly was Ash for framing and Poplar for panels. Ash is very light and very strong, unfortunately it is getting a bit hard to find in some areas because of the Ashbore.

 

This is where I get all my hardwood lumber, good prices and great to deal with they do willwork planing, joining etc. and they will ship UPS

 

https://www.kencraftcompany.com/

 

I echo the sentiment that soaking rotted wood with penetrating epoxy isn't fixing it. I've worked with West System extensively over the years and I'm starting to question the health risk involved (harmful vapor, skin contact and dust) and justification for using it at all. Many old wood boats lasted many years with nothing more than painting and varnishing, both of which hold up a long time if cared for. I just restored a 118 year old carriage body, it never had any epoxy and withstood the time, the old hide? glue joints were still holding on. One bad thing about west system coating, if the exterior is breached and water soaks in underneath the epoxy, it can't dry out and the coating is ruined in that area eventually. It should really only be used on a case by case basis, often times a properly applied coat of paint is sufficient, or even a linseed oil/gum turpentine mixture.

 

-Ron

Edited July 23, 2019 by Locomobile (see edit history)

[46 woodie]

I receive the magazine put out by West Systems and have seen articles about repairing wooden boats and spars on antique aircraft. I wouldn't hesitate using it.

[Locomobile]

2 hours ago, 46 woodie said:

I wouldn't hesitate using it.

 

Oh same here, I keep a Gallon under the bench with dispensers ready to go all the time. The point I was making is I think it is over used for some things. Good joinery and traditional fastening systems have served well for hundreds of years.

 

-Ron