Steve_Mack_CT Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 (edited) Well thought out 1935Packard. I would also add that when I say a "safe place to put your money" that is to say, recreational money. Getting any back is a win, right? Usually a better bet than say, a boat or frequenting the casino. That said, if I draw a 3 - 5 mile radius around my house I can't tell you how many guys own postwar cars but the prewar guys I know of - 5 at least, are all south of 55 except for one who may be close to 60. An interesting side note, 3 of them happen to have a interesting combination of collector cars, all 3 have a stone stock model A and a corvette (2 with mid years, one a late model ZR-1) in their stables. I guess that crowd does not subscribe to the "make it modern" approach to old cars.Also, relatively common collectibles and the very rare, best of the best in terms of condition and rarity represent another story. Edited August 30, 2011 by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Well thought out 1935Packard. I would also add that when I say a "safe place to put your money" that is to say, recreational money. Getting any back is a win, right? Usually a better bet than say, a boat or frequenting the casino. Very well put.Also, there isn't a single blue chip collectable car of any era who's appreciation over the last decade didn't blow away inflation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrpushbutton Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 I would LOVE to have a 30s Packard, that is the ultimate car to me. So many of the CCCA faithful have kids who couldn't care less about the cars--in our local region we have two sons who take after their fathers and want the cars when Dad leaves this life--the rest, I think they only see it as $$$$$ they will get their mitts on once the old man is gone, and the deal will probably be cooked at the funeral home during visitation. Here's a thought--will it to me! my wife and kids are sucking my money dry faster than I can make it right now. Deprive those do-nothing kids of that money and give the car to me. I'll give it a good home and love it and drive it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Hmmm. If the money is going out faster than its coming in, I think you'd be a risk. You'd end up having to sell that car that was willed to you just to keep up. I think I'd be a better candidate for anyone that wants to will a 1930s Packard. Besides, I think I might be slightly younger than MrPushbutton, even though he may have the upperhand in looks.In my family, with three brothers also heavily involved in old cars, the problem will probably be that I don't think I can bid as high as they can, so I'll probably just end up with the cash when what I'd rather have is the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_Mack_CT Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 When Pint4 mentions "30s Packards" he covers a lot of ground and value ranges. One nice feature about this marque in particular is one can move up through a wide range of cars, a sharp shopper can find a Jr. Packard ready to use for not too much more than some restored Model A Fords and there seems to be a stop along the way for nearly every price range. Not too many other marques offer this much variety. A 110 sedan is as welcome in PAC as a '34 V-12 Victoria. Something to think about getting back to Pint4's initial question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 I remember when 110, 115 and 120 Packards and even the '32 900 were shunned as somehow less of a car than their beknighted brothers. Now a 120 Conv is right up there in price with some of the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highlander160 Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 You're right '32. 120 prices are almost shocking these days. Here's a direct example of my spin on this topic. I love coupes. I have a deal cooking on a 34 1101 2/4 cpe that needs a full restoration. For what I'll have to do and spend (I do all of my own work) I could easily do a coupe roadster and I know of one that could also be bought in similar condition for a bit more $$$$$. I don't want an open car. I want this coupe. Once done to a nat'l award standard, I'm not sure it will be worth much less than the open version. Quality and authenticity will be the driving force on what I think it's worth done. Do I care about it's value once done? Not too much. I want it and that's all that matters. Same with my 41 160 biz cpe. The lowest priced 160 offered in 41, but I'm guessing it should be pretty special done right. I know of 2 160 buisness coupes and mine's one of em. The rest are club coupes. Big value difference? Only to me because I think it's almost an anomoly considering a comparable Cadillac was $400 less when new. Those 2 cars in my life, I could care less what the market says they're worth. By the time the cars and I part company it should be a win/win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_Mack_CT Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Good approach to the topic, Highlander, IMHO. I don't think you will end up with a couple of white elephants either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 A nicely restored 1932 902 coupe-roadster finished in 2004-2005 is currently on the market with an asking price of $136 or best offer. I don't know how well it was restored, but it looks nice in the one photo that I have, so I'm thinking it's at least a class 3+ car. Just sayin' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bkazmer Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 H160, the 41 160 business coupe (w. OD) may be the fastest production car that year. I'd say based on power to weight, it'd be close vs a Century. Give the Century an early lead for the dual carbs until those babbits gave out and the Packard blew by. I know of 2 40 business coupes, but a business coupe in that price range was a strange thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BJM Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Sigh. With all this nomenclature, I suppose I better buy Beverly's book and see if I can get up to speed on 30's Packards. I feel pretty good to have just memorized 22nd/23rd series and what that means. Back to the drawing board... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Business coupe didn't have back seats, or possibly had little foldable jump seats... perfect for traveling salesmen. As mentioned, for a Packard 160 to have a business coupe, that must have been some big business.The club coupe had a full bench spring cushion seat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bkazmer Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 no jump seats in a business coupe - just luggage area. As you say, expensive company car for a salesman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrpushbutton Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 West--the financial situation is temporary, a function of living/working in the greater Detroit area, a tough place to be these days. I am going on a second interview for a great position tomorrow, and and first interview for another possible job, both of which will put me back where I was before the "great dial-back". Levave me that 30s Packard and it will be cared for in proper order, I can assure you. Or leave it to your ungreatful, unappreciative kids and they will liquidate it for a vacation and some Jap cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_Mack_CT Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 John, good luck with your job search! One need only look at the Packard buy sell section right here to see what looks to me like a really solid deal on a '37 120; each situation with a car is individual and as A.J. said way back when on this thread the economy is horrible right now, but I am still amazed this car is not sold. There is a usable, 30s Packard in an attractive bodystyle for a tad more than typical Model A Ford asking prices. '37 is also the year of choice for many collectors. Granted it is not a Classic, but it would draw interest at most any PAC, AACA or local meet. Will be interesting to see how he does on eBay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1935Packard Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 (edited) One more thought on the 120 prices: I think it's very likely that we're going to see a convergence between the junior Packard prices and the senior Packard prices. The two sets of cars look very similar, and most young people don't really know about the difference. I've noticed this when I take out my '41 110. Most people have the same reaction to my 110 that they have to my V12. A lot of people still know about Packards, and they're wowed by seeing one, but relatively few know about the difference between junior and senior models. Plus, parts tend to be more plentiful for the junior models, making repair costs much lower and therefore lowering the long-term costs of junior-model ownership relative to the senior models. Over time, I think that has and will continue to make the junior prices approach the senior prices. You need a senior car to hang with the CCCA crowd, which is appealing to some buyers, but otherwise the prices are likely to largely converge. That's my prediction, at least -- worth all the electrons you're paying for it. On a different front, I also saw the advertisement for that 902 coupe-roadster, too -- looked like a good price, at least if if it is what it looks like. Those 902 coupe-roadsters are pretty spectacular.P.S.: Good luck with the job interview, John! Edited September 1, 2011 by 1935Packard (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highlander160 Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Business coupe didn't have back seats, or possibly had little foldable jump seats... perfect for traveling salesmen. As mentioned, for a Packard 160 to have a business coupe, that must have been some big business.The club coupe had a full bench spring cushion seat.Better yet West, my car was delivered on 12-24-40 by a dealer in McKeesport, PA. It wasn't titled until 1-2-41. A gift? It also was delivered with OD, sidemounts, radio and deluxe bumper guards. bkazmer, you're correct about it's performance. I read in the big MoToR Annual, oct 1940 I think, that the 160 was the fastest car for that year. It wasn't in the text about the 41 Packards, it was in the text of another brand describing it's new horsepower ratings. To me that was a bonus. I'm a kustom/hotrodder/drag racer at heart and never knew that as fact until after I got it. This particular car would be a great example toward the main topic. There was mention of "comfort upgrades" several replies back. No need for that with this car, huh? I always wondered who would order such a car. A well optioned biz cpe that never strayed far from the Pittsburg area most of it's life. A gift for a wealthy kid? A present to a "mob guy" perhaps from the boss? An estate car? A wealthy batchelor as a gift to himself? I wish I could find the original records but I see many of you say the old PA records were lost in the 70s. Bummer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 HighlanderIt just hit me, because it's been some time ago...But is this the car that I recommended you buy from Steve Snyder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_Mack_CT Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Interesting conjecture on the 160 Business Coupe. Sidemounts, could be a nod to style or a desire to maximize trunk space. With a radio I was going to add the thought that it could have been a gift to a wife, girlfirend or even mistress as the buyer could give a very nice gift but save a few dollars from the club coupe. But those sidemounts are kind of throwing me off. Could have been a successful salesman. The kind of thing you could spend hours on...I wish I knew more about my car. I do know it was delivered to Berry Motors in St. Louis, Mo. from the body tag and from stickers on the window it appears to have remained there until at least the mid 70s. Paperwork form a Packard restoration shop in CA was in a box containing the remains fo the original wiring harness, so I assume this shop did some or all of the work on the car when it was done. The woodgraining and much of the interior is original, althought the seats were reupholstereded. I kind of envision it remaining in the garage of some old family home in Mo. for many years in kind of semi-retirement until it was restored but who knows... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highlander160 Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 HighlanderIt just hit me, because it's been some time ago...But is this the car that I recommended you buy from Steve Snyder?No it isn't. It's in project condition. I actually "rescued" the car from being cut up and turned into a "new coachwork" Darrin. If the car you're describing is black, I know where it's at and it's the only other one I know of. It's a model 1903-1478 like mine. Mine is car #2120 and his is #2129. I don't have any other info handy. Your referal car was near Cinnci? BTW, I think we know each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 I don't remember if it was a club coupe or business coupe. Steve is in L.A., and I think the car went up to the N.W.If you ever have any questions as you're working on the project, I know '41s pretty well, as does Dave Mitchell, who has done the best resto of a '41 I've ever seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_Mack_CT Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 1935Packard, interesting prediction on converging prices. Maybe a narrowing gap that the Jr. cars benefit from, but I guess time will tell. I do agree you get a lot of bang for the buck with a Jr. We were lucky enouogh to win a "Sponsors choice" award at a local show last year, the sponsor being a Jaguar specialist. I talked to the guy and while he did not know a lot about Packards he did appreciate them and just seemed to like the car based on what he had heard. His perception was that was top of the food chain in 1939, which was interesting being he was obviously a little more informed than a non car person.A close comparison for me is the mid year Corvettes. You can still buy a '63 '64 smallblock car - especially with the powerglide for very reasonable money. The car will get you the same attention a '67 big block may from most people. Conversely, they are both very nice cars but serious collectors know the difference and there will always be a price gap there. based on this I think your theory is interesting, but only time will tell if it bears out.BTW West speaking of Steve Snyder check anyone who follows that site will see quite a few "sold" cars on it regularly, someone is buying all those old Packards! I think the market reflects educated buyers - when a deal presents it does not stick around. I think the $40K 120 he has out there now is a really nice car (happens to be same color as mine, which you don't see every day) but is a bit optomistically priced. My guess is consigner is probably not that hot to sell it. He just sold a '36 Super 8 pretty quickly though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 I'm not an expert on late 30s Packard by any means but I've felt that the recent surge in 120 prices had as much to do with styling as anything else. The conv coupe may be the best looking factory body Packard sold in the late 30s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 Agree. 1936-37 120 convertibles are probably the most fun to drive as well. In my opinion, they're better looking than their Super 8 and Twelve counterparts, much in the way of a 1940-42 Darrin genre, and/or 1932 Packard 900.I don't make this point for the purposes that it should be worth more than the Super 8 or Twelve, nor do I think it should be accepted as a Classic in the CCCA. I'm just sayin' I like 'em for their super good looks, and great driving characteristics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K8096 Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 The thing that's nice on these 120 conv. coupes and conv. sedans is the chrome windshield framing. Kind of gives it a roadster appearance with the top down. The Senior Packards are painted body color and have a higher windshield by about 2 inches. If I'm not mistaken Al, the car in your picture has the wrong front bumper, wrong hubcaps, and wrong Cormorant on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Mitchell Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 I don't remember if it was a club coupe or business coupe. Steve is in L.A., and I think the car went up to the N.W.If you ever have any questions as you're working on the project, I know '41s pretty well, as does Dave Mitchell, who has done the best resto of a '41 I've ever seen.Thanks for the kind words West! Coming from you that is high praise as you have seen a lot of Packards. That 41 took a long time and a lot of research to do that car, and I used up a huge number of NOS parts. I looked at and photographed lots of 40 - 42 cars as reference and bought a original standard sedan to cross check with. It is a wonderful car to drive and it was fun to show it because of the great story. I have owned up 5 41s at once and have to say that I do like them a lot, even though they were not my favorites to begin with. I drive my 160 convertible almost everyday that the weather allows and will do so today. It is a great road car with plenty of power. I would be happy to help anyone with info or parts on a 41. I am most familiar with the 35 - 41 cars, juniors and seniors. I recently got a form letter about continuing as the Packard tech advisor for CCCA and it struck me that most of the tech questions I get are now by email rather than phone or letter, but I still get those too. I would agree that the 37 115/120s are really good looking cars and I have owned those too - a 120CD sedan, all original with low miles and a 115 coupe roadster - really fun and terrific lines. I have owned a Six since 1985 and have put over 50,000 miles on it and they are great cars. That said, they just can't compare to a 160 or a Twelve when it comes to power. The 160s with overdrive are very nice and the V12 just makes you smile when you start it. As much as I like the 160, there is still a considerable difference in the presence of a V12. They are big, elegant cars, with real wood appointments and much nicer interiors, and there is a difference in build quality. When I go to a show, I like to hear the engines of the various cars - there is something about a well designed engine or a performance engine that really is different from the basic utillity power units that are in some vintage cars. The Duesenbergs 8s, the Packard 8s and 12s, Cad 8s, 12s & 16s, Supercharged Mercedes, all sound good to me (in different ways!) and some cars don't give me that feeling. packard12s@hotmail.comDave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Mitchell Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 The other thing is that the 120s still aren't exactly cheap to restore and it is easy to have a lot of money in one, more than people would have thought they were worth not that long ago. However the market has come to appreciate not just the style, - which I completely agree with West when he points out the very sporty with the clean lines and very low windshield (hot rods copy that look), combined with the Packard lines and engineering make these great cars - but also it is recognized that a first class restoration has to be paid for and is worth doing and guys will finally step up for a junior.I can't really see the values meeting in the middle for a 120 and a 12 however. I have yet to see a really good 12 coupe roadster go for close to the same money a really good 120 will bring. I think we have seen the money for very nice junior go way up, and we have seen the prices of average or below average 12s drop, but really good 12s are either being held by their owners until the market improves or aren't for sale, or sell quietly for more money. I watched a couple of V12s sell (one didn't make reserve) recently at auction and both needed at least $50K of work to be decent cars, let alone show cars. Good cars are a lot more money than these topped out at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_Mack_CT Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 Agree, Dave. Remember the best V-12s with desirable coachwork rival Duesenberg prices, and the later 30s V-12s were truly among the last of the "true Classics". Again I think an advantage Packard has (ironic for an independent) is a really wide range of choices for collectors - belonging to the same family as an "ultra Classic" does rub off on the Jr. cars for sure. I would love a '38 - 39 12 someday...The parts network supporting the whole line has to be among the best for the era, which helps I think, as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 Agreed.That's also a 1938 or '39. The '36-37 is much better looking. Obviously the sidemount spares don't work on the Junior Packards. This photo does illustrate the low chrome windshield frame, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_Mack_CT Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 (edited) I beg to differ, herr Doctor...Please see this specimen:http://www.vaultcars.com/wp-content/uploads/39Packard120-120.jpgBy '38-'39 the headlights sat closer to the fenders and the windshield was split even on Jr. converts as in the example above. What we have here is a "circus wagon" '36 - '37. Agree it could lose the sidemounts, Sr. bumper, wheelcovers and HUGE hood-duck but great colors for sure! Edited September 2, 2011 by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bkazmer Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 I think 48-51 cormorant, 41-2 senior bumpers. I promise to fix it if you send it over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1935Packard Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 (edited) Given how much money I recently spent on rebuilding the engine in my V12, I certainly hope the V12 prices don't converge with the 120 prices! I was thinking instead about a convergence of the 120 prices and the Standard 8 prices. They won't be equal, but I think they'll be pretty close. And I agree that much of that is because the 120 is just a marvelously designed car. Steve, you mention the difference in prices between small block and big block Corvettes. I see that difference as somewhat similar to the difference between the 8s and V12s; the cars look the same on the outside, but there's a huge difference for collectors. I tend to see that difference as something that is likely to stick around, as the numbers of the big block corvettes and V12s made were so low. Given that the numbers made are so low, the folks who are buying the cars are likely to be the serious car geeks who know the difference. Anyway, that's my theory: As always, it's worth only the electrons it's send on.Finally, I assume you saw these pictures, Steve, of a very nice '39 V12 coupe-roadster:http://www.vaultcars.com/?page_id=531 Edited September 3, 2011 by 1935Packard (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 I realize that for the most part the 12 & 8 are similiar on the exterior, however I thought the 12 had a longer hood (at least in 35/36)? 4 or 5 inches? Is that correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD in KC Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 I think 48-51 cormorant, 41-2 senior bumpers. I promise to fix it if you send it overThe '46-'50 junior hubcaps don't help either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BJM Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 ... but really good 12s are either being held by their owners until the market improves or aren't for sale, or sell quietly for more money. Is a speculative market good for collecting? I always thought no. But if a true collector profits from a restored car does he then go out and seek a car that deserves a restoration and bring it to a higher level of quality? A rising tide lifts all boats? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PackardV8 Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 Mixxed valuations among cars is quite often due to ignoring the following fact:If the top goes down then the price goes UP! Custom bodied or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 Mixxed valuations among cars is quite often due to ignoring the following fact:If the top goes down then the price goes UP! Custom bodied or not.Actually, we beat this into the ground in another thread. With prewar Classics this statement is not necessarily true. Take as exhibit "A" the 10 million dollar Duesenberg from last week's Gooding auction. It was a 3 window coupe. The value of a prewar Classic is completely determined by styling, powerplant and provenance. The better the styling (regardless of conv vs hardtop) and the bigger or more powerful the engine, the more money it will bring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 Here is a period picture (you can tell by the lack of white walls, and trippe lights, and trunk rack, etc, etc): Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 And a bit later model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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