new riv, new member, some advice wanted!

[Guest tip]

Hey guys, just wanted to introduce myself real quick. We kind of inherited my gf's dad's '63 Riviera. Its mostly stock, with the 401 Nailhead, aside from lowering coils and wheels. Needless to say, I'm excited about it, though I can't get her to start!

He told me to come pick it up, so we drove down to the warehouse where he's had it stored. He was sure it would start with a new battery, so I threw in a new one and cranked it off - no start. I put some new fuel in it, poured a bit in the carb and gave it another go. Still just cranks away and no start. Verified I had new fuel at the carb. Didn't have too much time to mess with it (car was 30 min drive away from home) so I left it for another day. Checked spark real quick on the way out, found none.

Was out of town for a bit after that, so when I came back in July we arranged to have it towed to the house. I charged up the battery and started diagnosing again. Checked for 12V at the coil - none. Didn't have a wiring diagram yet so I just started checking fuses and wires from the ignition switch. Found big fuse behind drivers kick panel blown (I think it was 110A - cant remember). Found one side getting 12V when ignition switch is in RUN and CRANK. Replaced that, got a full 12V at the coil. Still no start, though. The car had gotten a full tune-up, with points and condenser 'recently', and I could tell they didn't have many miles on them, not that it makes a big difference. In the meantime I drained the tank, changed the filter, and added new fuel.

I've never worked on points before (got a real youngin' here ) so I had to do some research on where to go from there. I ended up filing the points and trying it again. To my surprise, it started up for about 5 seconds. It fired off without any hesitation and sounded great, no hard start at all. Then it just quit, no stumble or anything. I triple checked everything again, fuel, voltage, etc.... no spark again. Ohm checked coil primary and secondary - well within spec.

So that's where I'm at. I'm going to check the points gap next, now that I've finally got my full toolkit here (just moved). Given the points gap is within spec, I'm thinking condenser? While I'm here, I may just upgrade to electrical ignition with the Pertronix kit. I searched here and it looks like a few here have done it with good results.

So anyway, sorry for the long first post! Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated! I would post pics but I'm not cleaning her up until I have that 401 purring.

**edit: car has been sitting for 2-3 years

[1965rivgs]

Hi,

Welcome to the ROA and congrats on your new baby! Often when a point equipped car sits for an extended period of time the points will corrode enough to cause no spark. So, you have overcome that hurdle...did you go back to the fuse which you previously found blown? If not, check it again. Post a pic if possible,

Tom Mooney

[NTX5467]

Howdy and welcome to the World of Buick!

When the car quit, was there still a good and strong accel pump shot in the carb? Or was there none?

When you set the points, did you do it mechanically or use a dwell meter? Did you also make sure the attachment screws were tightened well . . . had to ask that, for general principles as points don't usually don't "die" that quickly. As noted, they probably had some corrosion on the contact points which needed to be "dressed" off for them to work. Condensers usually don't fail, either, but are routinely replaced when the points are. Hopefully, there was a little vial of grease for the rubbing block of the points?

Such a quick "die" sounds more like a fuel issue to me, rather than electrical. If it was electrical and that quick, there should be some "escaped smoke" somewhere, I would think.

For general principles, it might be good to get a new (recent production rather than NOS!) fuel pump. Plus replace all of the rubber fuel lines on the vehicle, from the tank forward, to ensure they are good and also compatible with the newer gasolines we now have.

If you haven't already done so, be sure to remove and clean the battery terminals and related battery cable connections. One time, I did an electronic ignition conversion on one of my cars. When it got everything done and the wiring hidden, it fired off for 4 times in a row, but the 5th time, nothing. Voltage was "everywhere", but no crank. I replaced the starter solenoid to no avail, too. I saw some minor-looking corrosion between the battery terminals and the inside surface of the battery cable ends. It didn't look significant, but after I removed the cable ends, it had formed a thin film on the battery posts. When I cleaned the inside of the cable ends and also the battery posts, end of problem.

When you get it running, then you can start enjoying the vehicle and getting things back to normal on it.

A neat car! I think you'll enjoy it very much!

Please keep us posted on your progress.

NTX5467

[Guest BIGRIV]

What's up man, I think you should post some pics anyway. Patina is a good thing!

[Guest tip]

Thanks for the responses. I did recheck that fuse and it is still good. Haven't had a chance to mess with it the last few days. I'm going to order the Pertronix Ignitor 1 just because I was planning on replacing the points as a next step, might as well upgrade to electronic ignition.

Here you go BIGRIV, I hate to see this beauty dirty, but it keeps me motivated to get her running. (please excuse my tiny garage and bad pics) What can you eagle eye Riv-heads tell me from these pictures? I am brand new to these cars.

I detail cars as a hobby, so you can imagine how excited I am to get her looking good!

[RivNut]

If you're going to bring this one back to stock, one of the things you'll want to do is paint that engine the correct color - silver with a wrinkle red air cleaner. It also looks like it has '64 taillight lenses in it. The '63 lenses had a circle in the middle with the Buick Tri-Shield in it. The R wasn't part of the Riviera taillight until '64.

Post a picture of the Fisher Body Plate (on the firewall above the washer bottle. One of our members is making a data base of '63 Rivieras. The data plate will tell you some of the options that came on your Riviera when it came from the factory.

Check your engine block to see what the engine code and VIN are. Search the archives for info on where to find these numbers. (I'm curious as to the origin of the black ('64 era) air cleaner that I see lying on the floor..

Ed

PS - Post your name so we won't think of you as a stranger. Promise, we won't use it for any obscene use. We're a friendly group.

[mt65riv]

Tip,

Nice score. It looks real clean.

I recently got a '65 that had sat for more than 5 years and I got it going. What I did was get all the tune up parts: points, condensor, coil, cap, rotor, plugs. Then I rebuilt the carb before trying to start it. Check the fuel pump by unhooking the line that goes from the pump to the carb from the carb and put it into a bottle or jar and have someone crank the engine a few times - that will show you how well the fuel pump is or is not working. Of course I changed the oil first, also.

Set the dwell, gap the plugs, check the fuel, and it should fire right up. I found that I had a leaking valve cover - oil on the exhaust smells good... real good.

Engines are pretty simple machines. As one company says, 'fuel, air, spark'.

By doing this you will know what has been done and it should provide you years of service.

Is that thing cheby orange?!?

[Guest tip]

Thanks Ed, I do want to bring it back as close to stock as I can. I'll take a picture of the body plate and find the numbers soon. Its interesting that it has different year parts on it, and the engine color... who knows. I know this car has been resprayed... now you've got me wondering if this color is correct as well.

Mike, thanks for the tips. I think you might be right about the Chevy orange!

I'll be updating my progress as I go along. Thanks for reading. I'm Pat, by the way.

[RivNut]

Tip (I'm guessing that's your name.)

Here's a link to a color chart for the '63 Buicks. There will be a paint code letter on your data plate that will match up with a letter on chart. It will tell you what color the car was when it left the factory.

1963 Buick Paint Charts and Codes

Send other pictures of the interior, etc and we'll help you figure out what's OE and what (if anything) has been replaced with something different.

I've got a picture of a '63 engine on my desk top computer, but it's gone south and I can't get the pictures to format on my new laptop otherwise I'd send it to you so you can see what color the OE engine was painted.

Ed

[Jim65Riv]

Tip, post your location. There are scads of knowledgeable first generation Riv people all over. There may be someone nearby who could really help you, if we knew where you are.

[RivNut]

Here's a picture I copied and pasted from Google images. Hopefully it will show up on your end. Correct color of engine and air cleaner, and proper decals for air cleaner. This however is not an a/c car in the picture, but the only difference would be the fan shroud and the a/c compressor, both of which are black.

<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=500><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Edited August 18, 2011 by RivNut (see edit history)

[Guest tip]

Tip, post your location. There are scads of knowledgeable first generation Riv people all over. There may be someone nearby who could really help you, if we knew where you are.

Good idea. I'm in Gig Harbor, WA, about an hour south of Seattle.

Send other pictures of the interior, etc and we'll help you figure out what's OE and what (if anything) has been replaced with something different.

Ed, thanks for the picture. Look like I have a long ways to go to be factory correct. I'll take some more pictures here soon.

[Guest BIGRIV]

She looks real nice Pat, I like it!! I'm pretty new to the Riv scene myself, but I'm shure as hell hooked now! Buick did it right with these cars!! I still love my Oldsmobile's, but I smell a Boattail in my future!!??

[TexRiv_63]

Pat,

That looks like a very nice 63. Most of the bases have been covered on your starting issue but if it has been sitting for a number of years I would pull the plugs and check the compression just to eliminate that as a problem. I would recommend not going to the Pertronix conversion until you have it running on points, again just to eliminate potential confusion. Once you are sure your ignition system is working properly, pull the fuel line at the carb and turn it over to see if you are getting good fuel volume from the pump. If you are and it still won't run you will probably have to rebuild the carb since it is most likely gummed up. Good luck and keep us posted.

[RivNut]

Pat,

You have one of the more rare Rochester 4GC carbs on your '63. I had one of those on my '63 and swapped it for the correct Carter AFB. Much easier to tune and rebuild if/when necessary. The Rochester has all sorts of gaskets in it that were prone to leaking on mine.

As I looked at your engine again, I'm puzzled by the fuel filter and the way the lines come out of it. Could you post a close up picture of it? Have you tried pinchiing off the fuel return line that goes from the filter back to the tank to see if you get a good supply of gas to the carb?

Have you ID'd your engine yet to confirm it a '63 engine and the engine serial number matches the VIN on your firewall?

Ed

[Guest tip]

Alright, got some pictures and numbers. Glad to see the body #'s and engine # match. I can tell there is some funky stuff going on with this car. Some metal fab in the trunk and the seats/interior look different from other Riviera's I've looked at online. Tell me what you guys think:

Serial plate on cowling: 7J1071958

Engine #, best pic I could get: 7J1071958

Fisher body plate:

air cleaner (black):

inside of air cleaner (red):

Rochester:

fuel filter... I also thought this was weird, but again, I'm not familiar with these cars. Left line comes from pump (pump has line coming from tank also, obviously). Top line goes to tank (return line?). Right line goes to carb, as you can see.

interior:

trunk (sorry, too lazy to take mats out)

[Guest tip]

BTW, no progress on the no start issue, busy with work and brother's wedding.

[RivNut]

Family first - always.

Here's a picture of what the fuel filter should look like

The VIN matches the engine serial number so you know the engine is original - why it's orange is any one's guess.

Nicely equipped. I see the rear defroster and control, and a set of four note horns lying in the trunk. Looks like a set of floor mats as well

The consoles in all '63 Rivieras were covered in a black pebble grained vinyl. Only the door panels had the walnut trim. Base '64's had the black vinyl as well. Custom interior 64's had wood grain on the console.

Here's what your data plate shows:\

03B - built 3rd month 2nd ( week

FB 25216 - #25,216 out of 40,000

787 - Black cloth and vinly seats - custom interior

VV - Granada Red paint

D - provisions for a radio

S7 - Remote outside rear view mirror

I7 - Tinted glass - windshield only

N2 - Air Conditioning

U7 - Power windows

Z4 - Automatic Trunk release

These numbers don't tell you whether you have a 401 or a 425. Theres a code JT for 401 or JW for 425 on the opposite side of the engine from where you found the engine serial number. There will be a three digit code as well as the two letters but those numbers are probably some kind of date code so they don't really tell you anything.

There are other options, like cornering lights, four note horns, twilight sentinel, cruise control. etc. that could be on a car but won't be listed on the data sheet.

Your car has the spare mounted under the deck rather than on the floor as the first models came out. It also has the smaller depression in the vacuum storage tank - another mid model change.

From the factory, '63 Riviera came with a base wheel cover, or options were a simulated wire wheel cover or a cast aluminum wheel cover; rally wheels weren't available on the Riviera until '65 but they look good on any year Riv.

This should be a really sharp looking car when you get it back to original.

Ed

[steelman]

In one of the pictures was the owners manual. On the very last page is engine ID information. You have established that this is the original engine. Look there for the JT or JW letters Ed mentioned above. Could be hand written or typed in, depending on the dealer.

[Guest tip]

These numbers don't tell you whether you have a 401 or a 425. Theres a code JT for 401 or JW for 425 on the opposite side of the engine from where you found the engine serial number. There will be a three digit code as well as the two letters but those numbers are probably some kind of date code so they don't really tell you anything.

Thanks for the wealth of info! I looked at the other code and its JT565, so 401 it is

[TexRiv_63]

Very nice interior! Your seat upholstery looks correct for 63 cloth and vinyl as shown on your trim tag. If it is original the 22,000 miles on your odometer may be correct! If not, someone did a nice installation job and used a Clark's Corvair kit or similar quality. Ed is right about the console and door trim, here are some pics of my 63 which had original trim in those locations plus a Clarks kit on the seats. I also attached some engine pics, my air cleaner was also original.

[Dales90]

Hi,

Just wondering. The 140 mph speedo. Didn't that only come on 425 equipt cars?

Like the 401 had 120 mph?

Maybe a 64 speedo in the car?

Dale

[RivNut]

All early 1963 Rivieras left the factory with 120 mph speedometers. Mid-year 1963, all Rivieras came off the assembly line with the 140 mph speedometer. All 1st generation Riviera had 140 mph speedometers from that point forward. There were other mid-year changes made to the '63 model but by the time the one featured in this thread was built, all of them would have been implemented. The JW code is the only thing that would definately ID the engine as a 425. The air cleaner lid for a 425 would say "Wildcat 465," on it, but those can be easily swapped.

Here's a fact for you. In 1965, more dual four barrel 425 engines (3,808) were installed in Rivieras than than single four barrel 425 engines (2,311.) There were 28,467 single four barrel 401 engines installed. ALL 1964 and 1966 Rivieras came with the 425 engine.

Ed

PS - Jim, did you note that this '63 has a Rochester 4GC carb on it?

[Jim Cannon]

Jim, did you note that this '63 has a Rochester 4GC carb on it?

Yes, I did. Someone has swapped it out for the original AFB.

Let me clarify something that Ed said above. All full size Buicks came out at the start of the '63 model year (around Sept. 1962) with a 120 MPH speedo. Very early in the model year, they upgraded the Riv speedo to 140 MPH to distinguish it from the other Buicks. (Kind of like how only the '63 Riv engine was painted silver.) The speedo change was made around the 1st week of November, 1962, at about FB number 6000.

The 425 was announced as an option for the 1963 model year in January 1963. Prior to that, they all came with the 401 engine (and the single AFB).

[1965rivgs]

My experience with `60`s Buicks is that it is not all that unusual to find a Rochester 4GC on a 401. Typically the Carter AFB is more often found but I have seen and rebuilt enough 4GC`s that I would not describe it as "rare". I suspect Tip`s car may still have the original carb.

The `63 service manual lists the 4GC for 4400-4600-4700-4800 series cars with "power pack". The stamped carb number, 7023040, would appear on a triangular aluminum tab which is typically secured under an upper air horn screw, typically in the rear.

Interesting to note Carter did not stamp the carb number in this same metal tag (except the very rare `66 dual quad rear carb) but used color coding to distinguish the different carbs.

Tom Mooney

[Guest tip]

Just a quick update.... Between the other cars, house projects, and general summer fun, I haven't had much time to devote to the Riv.

I am going to try a coil next... This is the coil that is on the car now. Can anyone tell me if this is an original coil? I'm planning on ordering this coil, but need to know if it should be internal or external ballast resistor. I just want to make sure this is the correct part. I don't really get what the condenser looking thing is mounted to it...

edit: BTW, I'm getting battery voltage at the coil with the key on, so would that mean this coil has an internal resistor?

Edited September 15, 2011 by tip (see edit history)

[Jim Cannon]

Remove the 2 small wires from the coil and measure the resistance between them with a digital volt meter. It should read about 1.5 ohms. If it has infinite ohms, it is burned out.

You should use a coil for external resistor.

The little condenser looking thing is a condenser that reduces ignition noise on the radio.

[Guest tip]

Update: Car is running! After chasing my tail rechecking things over and over again, going absolutely nuts, the Riv lives!

Now that the weather has turned in the PNW, I finally have some time to devote to the old girl. Since it still didn't have spark, I removed the distributor to inspect it. I found a small wire that grounds the plate that the points sit on to the distributor case, it was slightly frayed and corroded. I thought it was a long shot, but I just couldn't find anything else to be bad. Made up a new wire, threw it all back together, and BAM, she fired right up! Needless to say, I am stoked!!!

Although, when I backed her out of the garage, it feels like the brakes are hanging up. The pedal feels almost stuck to the floor. E-brake is released (atleast at the pedal anyway). So that's what I hope to figure out tomorrow.

Thanks for all the advice!

[Guest Rob J]

Glad to hear you got the old gal a humming. Yep, brakes on a 4,000 lb car are important, so you definitely want to go through those. I'm putting new fuel and brake lines that I just received from Inline Tube on one of my cars now.

[Guest Kingoftheroad]

It is good hear that you got her running !!

[RivNut]

Brakes, if not used, will lose fluid. Check your reservoir for fluid level. I redid my brakes on one of my cars then let sit over the winter. The next spring, the level in the master cylinder was low. Filling it didn't really resolve my problems but bleeding the system did. The pedal level came back up and bleeding it gave the pedal its feel again.

Ed

[mt65riv]

Great progress, Pat.

[60FlatTop]

Just a matter of my taste, I have been running a 401 air cleaner on my '64 425 for the whole 33 years I have owned it. I got the correct one but it covered up that good looking nailhead too much.

Bernie

[60FlatTop]

Those brakes could be full of mud. Take a wheel and drum off so you can carefully peel back the edge of the wheel cylinder rubber cover. Look in there for brownish mud.

Brake fluid has an affinity for water and is lighter so it will accumulate on the bottom of lines. A good test is to gently grip the sides of a brake line with vice grips. Just apply a little pressure on them. The lines rusted on the inside will crack open like a lobster tail.

Bernie

[Guest tip]

Well I spent the afternoon taking care of the brake issue. I bled the brakes first, with no change. I got the car in the air and found the front wheels very hard to turn. I removed the wheels and drums, which was a pain with the brakes so tight. Checked everything out, loosened up the adjusters, scuffed up the linings and drums, repacked the bearings, put it all back together and now they spin fine. Inspected the rears too, everything looked good.

Put the car on the ground and she rolled much better, pedal feels good. I'm eventually going to do a full brake fluid change once I shakedown the car more. I didn't get to drive it too far since I need to get some more gas in the tank and change a few bulbs. I did want to wash it before it started getting dark (yes it was raining off/on, but I just had to get it clean!).

So all and all, a great afternoon on the car. Especially while listening to the Seahawks win on the radio

Here are some pics. Not the best but I will take some good ones when the weather gets better (so in July )

just about to put the wheels back on:

Anybody recognize these things? No markings, but appear to be semi okay quality. I will eventually be ditching this setup for some correct wheel covers.

after a bath:

[RivNut]

Looks like two tons of too much fun.

Enjoy it, drive it often, and watch others envy you.

Ed

[Guest onedesertdog]

That's a nice looking ride. You done good.

I could only hope I could get my 65 to that stage...

[J3Studio]

Pretty car.

[TexRiv_63]

VERY nice looking car, glad you have it running.

[Guest BIGRIV]

She's got attitude man!!!