88 To 89 Teves Brake Assembly Swap?

[Guest ArkDave]

I Have An 88 Reatta With The Early Style Brake System (High Pressure 1/2" Hose From Pump To Booster Block). Love The Car , Runs Great With No Major Problems. I Had A Brake Failure ~3 weeks Ago First Yellow Light Then Red Light Then No Brakes At All. Did All Brake Tests Turned out To Be Bad Accumulator. Replaced Accumulator No More Lights Brakes Work Great.

6 Days Later Complete Brake Failure Again. Did Brake Tests Again Seems To Be A Bad Pump This Time (System Shows Low Brake System Pressure And I Have Voltage At The Pump Motor) I Got On Line To Get A Replacement Pump

And Found Out They Are Obsolete For The Early Style System (Even The Local Salvage Yards Could Not Find A Used One). However The Later Style Pump/Motor Assembly (Steel Line From Pump To Booster)Is Available Everywhere. I Can Get A Complete System Out Of An 89 For A Good Price,

My Question Is, Can I Replace The 88 Early System With The Later 89 System

They Appear To Be The Same, But May Not Be ie. Presure Sensors, Connectors, Fittings, Bolt Holes, EMC? Has Any One Out There Run Into This problem. Please Help This Car Is A Daily Driver, I Would Like To Get it Back On The Road As Soon As I Can. Thanks

[padgett]

As long as you replace the entire assembly there should not be an issue. I have used an 89 EBCM (brane) with an 88 Teves before so should be able to verse the vice and the wheel sensors are same-same.

[Guest ArkDave]

Thanks, That Was One Of My Main Worries.

[Barney Eaton]

You can also use a "custom" high pressure line.

Go to one of the companies that make braided brake lines and they can make you a flex line with the "banjo" fitting on one end and the flaired fitting on the other. This gives you the option of using the mismatched pump and booster.

[handmedownreatta]

im told you can also use riviera parts to get rid of the antilock brakes.

[D-a-n-i-e-l]

Or... you could just go with the 91 system and be done with the whole teeves all together

[Barney Eaton]

Swapping out the Teves ABS system has been covered many times.

At the time it was put on the cars, it was state of the art and a premium unit. Parts and knowledge are still available and in my opinion you should stick with the Teves.

With that said, you have lots of options, but none are "plug and play"

* Go to a Riviera system of the same vintage. Brake lines must be reworked or remade.

* Go with a 1991 style Bosch system. Lots of changes including moving the A/C accumulator-dryer.

* Trade cars.

[Ronnie]

Swapping out the Teves ABS system has been covered many times.

At the time it was put on the cars, it was state of the art and a premium unit. Parts and knowledge are still available and in my opinion you should stick with the Teves.

With that said, you have lots of options, but none are "plug and play"

* Go to a Riviera system of the same vintage. Brake lines must be reworked or remade.

* Go with a 1991 style Bosch system. Lots of changes including moving the A/C accumulator-dryer.

* Trade cars.

Barney when you go with the Riv system do you lose the ABS or can enough parts be used from the Riv to keep a working ABS system?

[Jim]

I have good used '88 style pump/motors available.

[KDirk]

Ronnie,

Not speaking for Barney here, but the Teves ABS setup was optional on Rivieras, standard on Reattas. When speaking of the "Riviera swap" this means putting in the non-ABS standard system from the Riviera. Would be no point in swapping in the Rivi ABS setup, as it is exactly the same as the one on a Reatta (of the same model year anyway).

So, yes, swapping in the Rivi system means no more ABS. Swapping in the Bosch from a 91 can be done (Daniel has done it successfully) but is a bit more involved due to electrical/wiring changes that must be done in addition to swapping the key portions of the mechanical/hydraulic sections of the system. Daniel can expound on this better that I, since he has done it.

KDirk

[Barney Eaton]

I have not done the Riviera (non-ABS) swap but piecing together the statements by those that have.... (1) The brake lines do not screw easily into the Riv master cylinder because there is a gap.... lines must be bent so they will reach.

(2) The Reatta has one line going to the rear and the Riv has two. This gives you two options. (a) combine the two at the master cylinder and use the one going to the rear.

I suspect you must remove the pressure regulator at the rear suspension because the Reatta pressure is much higher on that line than the Riv. ( get the lines from the Riv and run 2 lines to the rear. You will also need to disconnect some connectors and pull some fuser or you will have the yellow ABS light on.

You really need to hate the Teves to do the conversion.

[Guest blue72beetle]

I've been thinking of doing the Riviera swap myself, my yellow light is on with no codes and I have no love for Teves. My Jeep, my Beetle, my Bus and my motorcycle don't have ABS. I've never had a car that did have it, so I won't miss it. Riviera parts (master cylinder, booster, etc) can be had new or reman'd, for a whole lot less money than Teves parts.

Also to add, on the Riviera master cylinder, the proportioning valves attach right at the MC. I don't think they come with any reman'd MC's from any FLAPS, so that may be a pick-n-pull only part.

[padgett]

Think it is simpler than you think - can probably cap one rear port on the riv m/c and use the other for the single line - pressure and volume transferred are the same just using one line, not two. Now the question is "do you need a proportioning valve ?" to properly balance front and rear. Since both ends are disks, you may not or you might need a pressure limiter on the rear to keep from locking it up, just do not know.

[NCReatta]

I've been thinking of doing the Riviera swap myself, my yellow light is on with no codes and I have no love for Teves.

If it aint broke, don't fix it, that's my motto.

You could just use the patented "black tape method", and be done with it. And even if you did the Rivi swap, you'd probably still have the ABS light, unless you could find the fuse or relay. OR you could find the fuse/relay, and pull it and see what happens.

I am not liable for any injuries inflicted by monkeying with your brake system. :o

[Ronnie]

I am not liable for any injuries inflicted by monkeying with your brake system. :o

Marck, you touch on a subject that I'm going to have to address on ReattaOwner.com, especially concerning the brake upgrade tutorials. Although I have a liability disclaimer on my website some of the tutorials might need to be removed completely or be only accessible after registering to use the website and specifically agreeing to the disclaimer.

[Guest ArkDave]

To All

Thanks For All The Input.

Yes Indeed An 89 Will Fit In An 88 Without Any Problems

I Swapped Out The Brake Systems On Saturday,

Was Back On The Road Sunday Afternoon.

Thanks For All Your Help.

David

[Barney Eaton]

Andy........and others. The BCA just announced that the Buick national meet will be in South Bend Indiana the middle of July 2013

[Guest blue72beetle]

Andy........and others. The BCA just announced that the Buick national meet will be in South Bend Indiana the middle of July 2013

Awesome. Now hopefully I won't have a military commitment then. And I hope the Reatta is still going strong by then also.

[NCReatta]

Andy........and others. The BCA just announced that the Buick national meet will be in South Bend Indiana the middle of July 2013

That ought to be an awesome meet. Count me in!

[Guest spiering.lucas]

Everyone listen to Daniel. Ditch the theves system and put in vacuum booster brakes from a 91 or any other gm that will bolt up like Camaro and Cadillac. The theves system is obsolete and you can't find parts for it not to mention it just sucks. Just look at Daniel's posts hes got the brakes figured out on the reatta.

[Guest spiering.lucas]

If it aint broke, don't fix it, that's my motto.

You could just use the patented "black tape method", and be done with it. And even if you did the Rivi swap, you'd probably still have the ABS light, unless you could find the fuse or relay. OR you could find the fuse/relay, and pull it and see what happens.

I am not liable for any injuries inflicted by monkeying with your brake system. :o

Don't listen to this guy he's not smart. If your abs and or brake light is on it is broken and you need to stop driving the car immediately!!!!!!!!!!! And you need to fix it... cus like i said it is broken and your brakes WILL fail. That's why they have warning lights DUH!

take a look at the pic of what happens when your brakes fail on a reatta

[Barney Eaton]

This issue is old and ongoing.......... what bothers me are people that have had a problem but do not understand the Teves system. They comdemn the system when their problem was most likely a lack of proper maintanence.

The "brake" part of the system rarely fails.... what stops working, (or maybe better stated the driver brakes faster than the pump can pump,) is the "POWER" part of Power Brakes. The assist side of the brakes is the major problem with the Teves system. Doing a brake test every 4-6 months will give you a very good idea of the condition of the accumulator.

The accumulator is the resevoir for power, if it is not holding enough reserve power and you have a PANIC stop, the requirement may be more reserve power than the system has stored.

By doing an accumulator test you can watch it slowly degrade and you can order a new one in plenty of time.

Last week on the BDE tour in Ohio a fellow from Kokomo with a 1983 Riviera convertible was having a similar questionable brake problem. Turns out that car has a "hydroboost" system that is similar in that it does not use vacumn for the POWER. The hydroboost system was used on Buick GN and apparantly some other GM cars. The big difference being it uses the power steering pump for hydraulic power and there is no ABS.

While the Reatta has a "proportioning" valve located at the rear "T" of the brake lines, I don't think it has the same function as the Riviera unit. If you study the Reatta brakes, the rear brakes get a continious flow of pressure when the pedal is pushed. There is a "toggle" inside the booster, one end pushes on the master cylinder spool and the other end opens a valve going to the rear brakes. You could say the rear brakes are not directly controlled by the master cylinder. So the rear brakes could see as much as 2400 psi if that valve were fully open, but the "proportioning" valve at the rear is much more of a "pressure regulator" to reduce that high line pressure.

Because of this unique system, you can bleed/flush the rear brakes without pumping the brake pedal........by just pushing the pedal you get a steady stream of fluid at the rear.

[NCReatta]

I was simply saying that the ABS light coming on isn't a reason to stop driving the car. The brake light, yes, but the ABS light just means you've lost ABS. As Andy stated above, I too have driven countless cars without ABS, and had no problem. When your brake light is coming on, then yes, you need to stop driving the car, and figure out what the problem is (which you obviously didn't do with your wrecked car). But ABS is a superfluous option. You don't need it to stop your car.

I do the brake test on all my cars every 4-6 months. Which I also believe others should too, just to be in touch with what condition your system is in, and such like that.

To be put simply, the Teves system is a great system if it's properly maintained.

A large majority of our cars had been reduced to daily transportation by someone who drove it and drove it until something went wrong, then it was fixed. Cars in general need to be checked regularly, and have maintenance performed on them. The Teves system benefits from having a fluid flush every time you have a brake job done, for example. If you keep and eye on your car, you can see a problem coming, and fix it before it turns into something drastic.

Oh, and thanks for calling me an idiot. That makes people want to listen to what you have to say a whole lot more.

Regards,

[padgett]

Different people have different opinions. There are some obscure failure modes of the ABS that you really do not want to know about but AFAIK, all give warning (why the Teves goes through the "ignition on" self test that ends with the "thump".)

The most common is a faulty relay. (Yellow light never goes out). Second is a bad sensor cable. (Yellow light comes on above 18 mph or when the car hit a bump - not all inclusive, just most common I have seen).

That said the three Reattae I have at home all have the Teves and all work properly. Have had a few both sensor and relay replacements (think the black car needs a relay but is only occasional & cycling the ignition fixes).

I can see the replacement with a Riviera non-ABS system but would not drive with a constant yellow light, it would be like an itch.

BTW, did not know GM used a hydroboost. Do know a number of systems were used including a belt driven vaccuum pump for low vacuum/no vacuum (diesel) engines but thought the turbo Regals used the GM Powermaster which is essentually a lower pressure non-ABS version but did have an electric pump and accumulator. My Vixen RV has one.

Edited June 18, 2011 by padgett (see edit history)

[Guest spiering.lucas]

I was simply saying that the ABS light coming on isn't a reason to stop driving the car. The brake light, yes, but the ABS light just means you've lost ABS. As Andy stated above, I too have driven countless cars without ABS, and had no problem. When your brake light is coming on, then yes, you need to stop driving the car, and figure out what the problem is (which you obviously didn't do with your wrecked car). But ABS is a superfluous option. You don't need it to stop your car.

I do the brake test on all my cars every 4-6 months. Which I also believe others should too, just to be in touch with what condition your system is in, and such like that.

To be put simply, the Teves system is a great system if it's properly maintained.

A large majority of our cars had been reduced to daily transportation by someone who drove it and drove it until something went wrong, then it was fixed. Cars in general need to be checked regularly, and have maintenance performed on them. The Teves system benefits from having a fluid flush every time you have a brake job done, for example. If you keep and eye on your car, you can see a problem coming, and fix it before it turns into something drastic.

Oh, and thanks for calling me an idiot. That makes people want to listen to what you have to say a whole lot more.

Regards,

never used the word "idiot" for one. And two you made yourself sound dumb when you said. If its not broke don't fix it..... If there is a warning light on your dash its broken...

[wws944]

Hydroboost is used in *lots* of GM light trucks - basically anything 3/4 ton and above, both gas and Diesel. Also in some 'heavy half tons'. In fact, some folks upgrade their 1/2 tons to get rid of the vacuum booster in favor of hydroboost. It is much better when towing heavy. But is also about 2x more expensive than a vacuum setup.

[NCReatta]

never used the word "idiot" for one. And two you made yourself sound dumb when you said. If its not broke don't fix it..... If there is a warning light on your dash its broken...

It was the gist of your statement.

If the ABS light is on, it doesn't mean your whole Teves system is bad. As stated by padgett in another post:

The most common is a faulty relay. (Yellow light never goes out). Second is a bad sensor cable. (Yellow light comes on above 18 mph or when the car hit a bump - not all inclusive, just most common I have seen).

I don't want to be in a fight about this, but the Teves works great if properly maintained.

I personally have owned 5 of these cars. None of them have ever had any problems with the Teves system. And I've met countless others (some with well over 300k on their Reattas) who also have had NO problems.

Just because you had a problem, and you wrecked your car, doesn't mean all Teves systems are the plague and you should not drive you car until they're replaced with something else.

I will not post any more on this thread regarding this subject of the Teves.

[Guest blue72beetle]

Wow. All this talk about Teves made me decide to sit down with my service manual and study chapter 5. Amazing what you can learn when you do things yourself.

Since I got the car, my ABS light was on (no red light), tried jumping A+H and got no flashing, no codes, so I had no clue what was wrong. I was reading about the 30 amp fuse, and had no idea that it was there above the relays. Went out to check it, and sure enough, it was broken. Put a new 30A fuse in, started up, and no ABS light! Took it for a quick test drive down the road, and no lights come on, and the brakes feel great!

What would cause the fuse to pop?

[Guest Mc_Reatta]

Tough to venture a guess on this one. 30 amp fuse powers the part of the EBCM which uses most of that power to operate all the valves in the valve block on side of the Teves.

While the fuse is hot all the time, it feeds through the ABS relay on the firewall before it ever gets to the ECBM. That relay is controlled by another part of the EBCM which only turns the relay on when the ignition is in start or run.

So a problem in some wiring, the relay, the EBCM, or a valve in the valve block.

I vote for a gremlin. :eek: Just hope it doesn't reoccur.

[Guest MRD191@YAHOO.COM]

where can i get just the brake pump motor seperately for my 1990 eldo with a teves system?? please help--i don't want to buy a complete unit for over $400.00. thanks, newbe--conrad--caddy tech

[NCReatta]

If the pump is identical to the Reatta, I have a few good ones. Send me an email with a picture of your bad one (take a picture of the plugs too) and I'll make sure it's the same as the Reatta.

Thanks!

[Guest Double M]

Swapping out the Teves ABS system has been covered many times.

At the time it was put on the cars, it was state of the art and a premium unit. Parts and knowledge are still available and in my opinion you should stick with the Teves.

With that said, you have lots of options, but none are "plug and play"

* Go to a Riviera system of the same vintage. Brake lines must be reworked or remade.

* Go with a 1991 style Bosch system. Lots of changes including moving the A/C accumulator-dryer.

* Trade cars.

It may have been covered many times, but I have yet to see one post or series of posts that outline exactly how to do this and I have asked specifically many times. If such a thing exists or ever exists, it should be made a sticky part of the forum.

It may have been state of the art THEN, but it is is a death trap. Maintaining the originallity of the car is very admirable, but maintaining our lives is much more so.

That is my opinon.

Any Brake system, Teves or not, that is designed to not have an emergency brake is a system designed to kill people.

That is common sense.

Edited October 25, 2011 by Double M (see edit history)

[Barney Eaton]

Angelo........don't hold your breath if you are expecting me to write a procedure to make your Reatta non-stock.

That said, why would you upgrade to a system that is only 2-3 years newer on a 20 year old car.......switch to a 2010 or later ABS system so parts would be available longer and now you would have a "state of the art" system. You might want to add side curtain air bags at the same time.

[jonlabree]

It may have been state of the art THEN, but it is is a death trap. Maintaining the originallity of the car is very admirable, but maintaining our lives is much more so.

That is my opinon.

Any Brake system, Teves or not, that is designed to not have an emergency brake is a system designed to kill people.

If this is true, then all of the new school buses are death traps, cause they all have a Teves system.

[Guest Double M]

Why would I have to hold my breath and why would you have to write anything if it "has been covered many times". A simple link to these posts would suffice if they truly have "been covered many times". Just simply back up your statement with a link or two.

I also havent asked you to do a thing. Except, perhaps to consider that some people value safety over originality. I am quite aware that any modifications beyond stock insults you and others here perhaps, but that is not my intention at all. Never has been.

I very much apprciate your spirit and understand as the duly appointed and widely respected Reatta expert, your zeal for keeping our Reattas original, but some of us have other opinons and needs. I am not being sarcastic, either.

Telling people that "parts are readily available" is not true at all. Unless your are involved with this club or are accustomed to searching junkyards and good at evaluating their useability, they are not readily available to the everyday owner or mechanic he brings his car too. My own experience proves that out as does many of us here. Accumulators, Master Cylinders and their components, sensors and more are just not produced any longer or available thru a parts supplier or even a Buick Dealer. If one is found, it commands quite a high price too. Never mind the fact that you either have to become or find an expert on obtaining and reading antiquated fault codes to diagnose problems with the system.

We are not all collectors with unlimited time and funds to restore these cars. I respectfully submit that you miss this point by a mile. Again, please understand, I am not trying to be arguementative, disrespectfull or sarcastic, just stating the facts as plainly as I can, based on my experience.

That experience tells me quite clearly that a car that has been specifically designed to not have an emergency brake that relies on a failure prone system that uses parts that are not readily available for, equals a dangerous condition that clinging to the banner of originality will not solve.

To answer your question, Yes, I would change whatever I had to, to make the car a safe daily driver instead of a dust collecting symbol of originality. I want to get home in one piece, not get points at a car show.

A car, Teves or not, without an Emergency brake is a death trap. It seems like common sence to me. IMHO.

[Guest Double M]

It may have been state of the art THEN, but it is is a death trap. Maintaining the originallity of the car is very admirable, but maintaining our lives is much more so.

That is my opinon.

Any Brake system, Teves or not, that is designed to not have an emergency brake is a system designed to kill people.

If this is true, then all of the new school buses are death traps, cause they all have a Teves system.

I'll bet you they have an Emergency Brake!

[padgett]

There is a parts car that had the Teves replaced with a vacuum unit. The plumbing has not been verified. It was driven onto the dolly and driven to where it sits so it can be done.

That said all of my driving cars have fully functional Teves systems with no lights. If one comes on I fix it immediately. While they have been confusing at times (any relation between the error codes and what is happening seems coincidental) I like having ABS.

[jonlabree]

Woud you be willing to bet some money on your statement?????

[Guest Double M]

I would not let my kids ride on one, that is a sure bet.

I would not let anyone drive my Reatta as well.

Any, any car, not just the Reatta that has a "Parking Brake" and not an "Emergency Brake" is a dangerous car, truck or School Bus, regardless if it has a Teves system OR NOT. Did ya see that OR NOT?

[wws944]

Angelo, if you go to the top of the forum page, there is a box called 'Search this Forum'. If you type in some keywords, like "riviera master cylinder", you will find lots of old threads.

Personally though, I think some people tend to make the Teves system out to be a lot more complicated than it really is. And that includes professional mechanics who don't have an interest in dealing with it - so quote their customers huge $$$$ to work on it.