Lifters clicking after oil change 5W30

[Fred Zwicker]

I had a nice quiet running 1955 Pontiac Star Chief Safari until I had the oil and filter changed last week. The quick oil change shop used Kendal Detergent 5W30 oil and since then, the lifters are making a clicking sound. The orignal Pontiac V-8 engine was rebuilt several years ago (with maybe a few thousand miles on the rebuild) and I do not know the type of oil used by the previous owner, although we did remove the valve covers for painting and everything looked real clean in the lifter areas. The 55 Pontiac Manual calls for 20 weight, or can sub 10W-30 or 10W-20. the temperature in Ohio this week is in the low to mid 90s, so am wondering if the oil could be too thin? My mechanic wants to add a can of STP, but I feel that I may want to go to 10W-30 or straight 20 weight and forget about the STP.

Any ideas? I am hoping for some suggestions. Thanks,

Fred

[Guest]

Fred, I run 20-50W Castrol with a zink/phosphate additive ( ZDDPLUS) . The 20W of it is good enough for our winters which see no lower than 15 degrees in winter, and in summer we can get as high (not this year though) as 115 degrees. The only additive I would ever use is the zink/phosphate additive because the oil these days only has trace amounts and I don't want to scuff my cams and lifters. Both of my Pontiacs have factory high performance cams and factory high performance valve springs and the valve spring pressures are fairly high. If you think it is a lifter not getting oil pressure and is partially blocked you could do one thing ( I must warn you that you cannot do this on a engine that has been using non-detergent oil or a engine that has had neglected oil change intervals ) and that would be to drain your oil and put in 5 quarts of automatic trans fluid in and run the engine at high idle (1200 rpm) for ten minutes, then drain it and refill with regular engine oil. Oil companies and car manufacturers all warn against switching brands of oil. I hope your car has been using Kendal all along.

Don

Edited August 11, 2010 by helfen (see edit history)

[rick60]

The oil change place may have used bulk oil from a 55 gallon drum. Don't trust the quality of bulk oil. When working as a mechanic I had trouble with the bulk oil we were using. Be sure to use only oil in a sealed container from a name brand manufacturer. I would immediately drain and replace the oil.

[Fred Zwicker]

Thanks Don and Rick,

I think that I should change the oil to a heavier grade of oil, as feel that 5W-30 is too thin for our area in NE Ohio, although I am not sure of the potential problems if 5W-30 oil is used in this car. My 1955 Pontiac is driven only in the summer months and we have had some very hot summers of late.

Regarding not changing brands of oil, unfortunately it is not always possible to determine the brand and/or weight of oil used by a previous owner of an antique car, when this information is just not available. After looking at the lifters yesterday (nice and clean and no gunk), I feel that detergent oil has been used in the past, as if not, there would usually be a lot of visible gunk in that area, but I could be wrong.

I have a 1939 LaSalle with a fully rebuilt flathead V8, and in that car I use Shell Rotella T SAE-30 oil and add about 8 ounces (1/2 bottle) of EOS with an oil change. The 1939 flathead Cadillacs call for straight-weight SAE-30 oil and that is what most of the Cadillac/LaSalle owners seem to use.

For this 1955 Pontiac with the original V-8 engine, I have on hand two name brands of 10W-40 that I am considering, along with some EOS. This might be a suitable alternate choice to Don's 20W-50, but am hoping for more comments. The factory calls for straight weight 20 or 10W-30 weight. I don't know why the quick lube chose 5W-30 ??? I had my body man take the car for the oil change and he said that is what they recommended. However, most of their business is with newer cars. Once I saw on the invoice that they had used 5W-30, I immediately thought it was too thin and the engine let me know when it was started. I will ask him later today if the oil was bulk, or from sealed containers, as I do not know at present.

Picture of my two 1955 Pontiac Safaris is attached. The original Safari is shown to the left. Both will be shown at the upcoming Glenmoor Gathering Concours Show in Canton, Ohio on September 19th. This year's emphasis is on cars made in Cleveland, Ohio and from 1955-1957, all Pontiac Wagon bodies were made in Cleveland at the Fisher Body Plant on Euclid Avenue.

Fred

[D Yaros]

Others will tell you it is worthless, but I use STP in all my rides, and have been doing such since the 60's. One thing STP will do is replace the now missing ZDDP from modern oils. I would put 20w in, if you can find it, otherwise 10w-30

[TexRiv_63]

Fred,

The quick lube shop put 5W30 in your car because they are idiots. This type of shop has no clue about older cars, and even if you tell them you want a specific type of oil you have no guarantee you are getting what you ask for since everything comes out of a hose connected to a bulk drum. I gave up on these places long ago, I change my own oil on my hobby cars so I am sure what goes into it.

The type of oil for your 55 depends on the condition of the engine, if it is a recent rebuild 10W30 would be fine but if it is a high mileage original 10W40 or 20W50 would be better. I have used Castrol products for a long time but the brand matters less than the additive package.

By the way, those are beautiful cars!

[Alfa]

I would agree with Don`s first sentiment regarding the quick lube shop !!

The fact is those people know nothing about any engine, much less and old one. They will put in the same stuff they supply to every vehicle, because that is what they have been told to do.

The default oil here is a 15W40, which would be fine in your engines. I would also seriously consider a 20W50 as that is more like the original oils of the 1950s.

If your engine is clean, and it sounds as though it is, then a modern high detergent oil is fine. If it were old and a bit dirty, I would suggest using a low detergent "classic oil" to avoid holding too much dirt in suspension since your oil filtration will not be anything like modern standards.

Any of the mono-grades mentioned above ((SAE 20 or 30) would work fine too.

I tend to use a low detergent SAE 30 in my vintage engines with no filtration (I have a 1928 Alfa), but in my 66 Sunbeam Tiger I use a modern 20W50. My modern diesel uses a high detergent 5W40.

As for brand loyalty. This is something cooked up by the marketing people. Drain the engine thoroughly and use any reasonable quality product. The only problem with the bulk oil is that you do not know what it is. It is not always bad. A good garage should be able to tell you what they are using in any case. Remember that the price of the premium brands includes the cost of lavish marketing activity.

I hope this is helpful

Adam..

[poci1957]

Hello Fred, I answered this in the POCI forum but lots more input here. The reason the quick lube gave you 5W30 is because most modern cars use that thinner oil for improved gas mileage. They almost certainly are using a bulk oil, it is very unlikely that they gave you bottled oil. All of this is little problem with the modern car, but our old cars require a little more care.

I also agree that most any name brand detergent oil is fine to use. There is a move among old car people to use the diesel oils like Rotella but I have not because I still think the additives for diesels are probably not designed for cars, but who knows? It is likely they are all better than oils were in 1955, you just have to watch the weight and additives. I see Dave Yaros echoed my comments about STP, which I have begun phasing in on my cars. Let us know what happens, Todd C

[stealthbob]

Good read on ZDDP...sorry its a brand pitch but it does have good info.

http://www.zddplus.com/TechBrief1%20-%20Introducing%20ZDDPlus.pdf

I also completely agree on the Bulk Oil comment, who the hell knows what you got. They give you what they have for the most part.

[Guest]

As for brand loyalty. This is something cooked up by the marketing people. Drain the engine thoroughly and use any reasonable quality product. The only problem with the bulk oil is that you do not know what it is. It is not always bad. A good garage should be able to tell you what they are using in any case. Remember that the price of the premium brands includes the cost of lavish marketing activity.

I hope this is helpful

Adam..

Adam, Why does every owners manual I have from new cars (2) to old (5) and their shop manuals say you should stay with one brand once you choose it??

Those cars I have would be three from the U.S. , two from Japan, and two from Germany. I retired from a major auto manufacturer (34 years ) in engineering and marketing never cooked that up. There is a reason.

Don

[Rusty_OToole]

If the engine has that few miles since the rebuild the light oil should be fine. My concern would be the lack of zinc in the new oils.

[Guest]

Thanks Don and Rick,

, as I do not know at present.

Picture of my two 1955 Pontiac Safaris is attached. The original Safari is shown to the left. Both will be shown at the upcoming Glenmoor Gathering Concours Show in Canton, Ohio on September 19th. This year's emphasis is on cars made in Cleveland, Ohio and from 1955-1957, all Pontiac Wagon bodies were made in Cleveland at the Fisher Body Plant on Euclid Avenue.

Fred

Fred, I hope that modified Pontiac has a real Pontiac engine in it! There is nothing worse than turning a Safari into a Nomad! I like the one on the left!

Don

[Ron of Chicago]

I don't mean this be a stupid question, but did you check the oil level?

I never go to any one to do work on my cars but I did have my oil changed once because I was running late and needed to get it done. As I watched the kid from outside the bay door, I saw he had to call the manager over. What happened was that he added power steering fluid to the master cylinder......GEEEEESH!

It is possible he didn't have the amount dial set when he added oil to your car is all. Not trying to be a smart-alic.

I have used different brands of oil in my cars before with no ill effects. I also only use a quality 20W50 oil in everything I drive.

Hope you find the answer and it's a simple fix.

Ron

[Fred Zwicker]

I talked to my body man today and everyone on this forum is exactly correct - they used oil pumped from a drum that is supposed to be 5W30 Kendall. Never again will I use such oil. In the past I once had oil changed in my modern car at a Quick Lube place and that shop had name brand oils to choose from, and all were in quarts. I didn't realize that they are now selling bulk oil. From now on we will be changing our own oil, as in the past (we have a lift machine so why not?)

I just thought of something - Earlier in the week (immediately after the oil change) we drove the car into our shop and it was running quietly. Wanting to get a nicer finish on the valve covers, we removed them for refinishing in the correct color (Bill Hirsch 1955 Pontiac engine paint). Each bank was sitting open for 1-1/2 days. (I know we should have covered it, but our shop is clean and we did not do so). After installing the valve covers, the clicking was very noticeable as soon as the car was started. We took it for about a one mile drive and it was still clicking when we returned, although was starting to quiet down slightly. It was then shut down and parked for the night in our shop.

This morning we added 8 ounces of EOS (1/2 bottle) and a half quart of straight SAE 50 weight oil to top it off (it was almost a quart low from the oil change anyhow). We then started the engine and let it warm up and no more ticking! My theory is that possibly a piece of the old cork gasket may have dropped into the lifter area and could have temporarily caused something, which seems now to be resolved. Is this possible? Or was it the EOS and the 1/2 quart of SAE 50 oil?

Later I still plan to change the oil to a high quality detergent oil - possibly in a 10W40 grade or at least heavier than the present mix, but want to see how it sounds for a few days. As for the 20W-50 recommendations, I may use this in my 1954 Buick Special, which has more wear on the engine and could use some help.

Thanks to all who helped with this issue. Hopefully all is well that ends well.

Fred

[poci1957]

Sounds good Fred, glad it is working out. Seems Ron was closest to the real problem, I had not thought of that and indeed it is an issue--any car with more than 5 quarts would be unexpected to the modern oil guy.

[Guest]

Sounds good Fred, glad it is working out. Seems Ron was closest to the real problem, I had not thought of that and indeed it is an issue--any car with more than 5 quarts would be unexpected to the modern oil guy.

Todd, We used to always run our Pontiac's one quart low while drag racing (racers trick) and never a lifter noise.

Fred, You haven't told us about the engine in the modified safari.

Don

[51dyno]

Find some 20W or 30W Oil Designed for Diesel Engines that has different Specs than cars.

[Fred Zwicker]

Don,

We are getting a little off topic, as my concerns were focused on the oil used in my original Pontiac Safari. However, since you asked about the modified Safari twice.......

I didn't install the engine in that car, as it was built by a Pontiac Dealer in 2000 with no expenses spared, using all new drive train, disk brakes, Fatman front end, Dakota digital dash, Vintage Air, ivory leather interior, etc. The exterior appearance was kept exactly as stock, other than the 17" wheels and the previous pearl white paint. Fortunately, the dealer insisted on maintaining the original look, but with modern conveniences. The car was painted at the Pontiac dealership in a 2-tone pearl white (Lincoln pearl over Cadillac pearl) and looked OK, but had a few nicks in the paint - nothing major.

A friend of mine bought the car from the Georgia dealer about 4 or 5 years ago and drove it back to Iowa. I bought the car early last year from my friend and used it as a nice driver last summer and fall. After Hershey last year, we brought it into our shop and in touching up the paint, attempted to match the pearl, but could not do so. We ended up giving it a complete repaint and new carpet. (No body work or chrome plating was required, although we removed all of the chrome, doors, hood, tail gate, etc. - a first class job). Preferring originals, but appreciating the conveniences of this car, went back to close to the original copper and ivory color, but not doing anything to the mechanicals, as the car has only about 3500 miles since the build in 2000. I added new tires for safety reasons.

I received a 4-page 2001 magazine article about the car and it did not say what engine was used, other than saying it was a new GMC crate engine. I am hoping that a Pontiac dealer would have installed a Pontiac engine, but I do not know. The engine had a 4 bbl Holley carb and a lot of chrome and looked nice, but we made a custom engine cover in our shop utilizing Pontiac Indian hood ornaments from two '49 Pontiacs. These light up when a hidden switch is activated. Here are some pictures of the engine cover, which took about a month to fabricate out of metal and fiberglass. It is removable in 4 sections, does not rattle and engine does not overheat (engine has both a pusher and puller fan). We had a local artist do the graphics. The engine and transmission oil can be checked wihout removing this cover (dip sticks are behind the rear of the cover attached to the fire wall). We went a little overboard on this project, but wanted to do something very unusual for once.

Some like modifieds - some like originals. While this Pontiac was purchased as a modified and will remain so, you can bet that my original Safari will stay 100% original. I really like both cars, so for those who feel strongly about their choice, take your pick! Both are beautiful cars in showroom condition.

Fred

Edited August 12, 2010 by Fred Zwicker
Add pictures (see edit history)

[Guest]

Fred, a GM crate is either a SB or a BB engine of Chevy origin, but definitely not of Pontiac origin. I couldn't find a smilies on the rt for crying so this will have to do.

The engine cover is one special piece, there is alot of hours in that for sure and a interesting take on, and going a bit further than what manufacturers are doing these days with engine covers.

Was wondering what the reaction is in the Pontiac community??

Don

[Fred Zwicker]

The engine cover is one special piece. Was wondering what the reaction is in the Pontiac community??

Don

I don't know, as this car has not been shown anywhere as yet. First showing of both cars will be at the Glenmoor Gathering in Canton, Ohio on September 19th. See www.glenmoorgathering.com for information on this year's show. I seldom show my cars, other than in our car museum in Canfield, Ohio.

See www.tpcarcollection.com for pictures of cars owned by my son and I. Other than the modified Safari, all of my cars are originals, while my son's likes both originals and modifieds.

Fred

[Guest]

Fred , modified or not your Safari is very impressive. Thank you for sharing the information and pictures.

Don

[Alfa]

Adam, Why does every owners manual I have from new cars (2) to old (5) and their shop manuals say you should stay with one brand once you choose it??

Those cars I have would be three from the U.S. , two from Japan, and two from Germany. I retired from a major auto manufacturer (34 years ) in engineering and marketing never cooked that up. There is a reason.

Don

In my experience the OEMs give an oil spec and sometimes refer to a brand, or two that meets the spec. I have not seen a shop or owners manual say that you should never change brand. If they do, I suspect it is because they have a supply agreement with one particular oil brand, which includes aftermarket servicing.

Mineral oils have two key components, the base oil and the additive pack. The base oil is often only produced in a couple of places, so is common to many suppliers. The difference between oil specs comes in the additive pack used. This will vary according to whether it is a petrol or diesel oil, and then according to price etc. The base oil is mineral oil, the additive pack is largely synthetic. If you use an additional oil additive, you are simply adding to the pre-existing additive pack, which you may or may not, view as necessary. A full synthetic oil uses a synthetic base oil, to which a broadly similar additive pack is blended.

It is perhaps worth considering that the oils of today vastly surpass the oils of the 1950s, both in quality of the base oil and the attributes of the additive pack (friction modifiers, anti foaming agents, detergents etc) such that virtually any reasonable quality engine oil will do an excellent job of protecting our older engines.

In my view, we are not looking for extended drain intervals, or extreme operating conditions in our collector cars, so a moderate spec oil, changed regularly is of more benefit than any high spec full synthetic oil. Cheaper too.

However, i accept that this is an emotive subject and everybody has their own opinion of what works best in their particular application.

Adam..

[poci1957]

Fred , modified or not your Safari is very impressive. Thank you for sharing the information and pictures. Don

Agreed, that engine cover is quite an item, I would think they may become more popular to cover the ubiquitous Chevy SB engines.

Don and I are both devoted non-modified guys (to some controversy, eh Don?) but I agree that your Safari is extremely well done, congrats.

I am also with Alfa that for old car use a synthetic oil is not really necessary. Unless you are using the car hard, which few us are, it seems a waste as at 1000 easy miles a year the oil will never wear out between changes and a good regular oil is fine.

Todd C

[mrspeedyt]

walmart now sells 'accel' sae 10w-40 'SF' oil. bought a quart... haven't tried it yet. 'accel' doesn't appear to be like the hi-po ignition brand. nice safaris btw... had a '56 back in '68 and the lifters would clack with brand 'v' oil. changed to castrol and no clack. kendall is a good oil.... just need to be a heavier grade.

[Fred Zwicker]

Good news! Yesterday we drained the 5W30 semi-synthetic oil from the 1955 Pontiac Safari and added 10W-40 and there is no clicking now. Evidently the 5W30 was just too thin for this engine (original engine - rebuilt). I also heard the synthetic oil can cause leakage problems in older cars, so will avoid this in the future.

Fred

[Guest Clints66]

Go do your self a favor and change that oil to Shell rotela 15-40 with ZZDP you need it for your lifters..! Do a Gooogle search on ZDDP and you will see for your self this oil you but today is almost 50% less ZDDP than when this car was built. Or you can run racing oil 20-50W but much more $$$

[Fred Zwicker]

Thanks Clints66,

I will try your suggestion next time I change the oil, but did add 8 oz. of EOS to the recent and latest oil change to take care of the ZZDP. I have Shell Rotella grade 30 for use in my 1939 LaSalle with original flat head engine, but since I already had some 10W40 in stock, put that in the Pontiac that had the original V8 engine (rebuilt previously). Since changing from 5W30 semi-synthetic to the 10W40, I have no more lifter clatter. I also changed the transmission fluid to Dexron 2. Attached picture shows the engine.

Fred

[Guest]

Thanks Clints66,

I will try your suggestion next time I change the oil, but did add 8 oz. of EOS to the recent and latest oil change to take care of the ZZDP. I have Shell Rotella grade 30 for use in my 1939 LaSalle with original flat head engine, but since I already had some 10W40 in stock, put that in the Pontiac that had the original V8 engine (rebuilt previously). Since changing from 5W30 semi-synthetic to the 10W40, I have no more lifter clatter. I also changed the transmission fluid to Dexron 2. Attached picture shows the engine.

Fred

Fred,

That dosen't look like a GM Frigidaire A/C system in your "stock" Safari!!

So you have two modified Safari's?

Don