Oil: Where Is it Going?

[jeff_a]

I read an account of someone going on a 2,000-mile trip from Chicago to Washington, D.C. and back in the 1920's. They had a newer car, kept track of all gas & oil purchases, and their oil consumption was about 10% of their gas consumption. It makes me wonder -- where was all that oil going?

[Guest DeSoto Frank]

Some of it went past the rings and burned-up in the cylinders, and some went on the ground, past primitive gaskets and seals.

Engines weren't as "tight" then...

Watch some silent movies / news reels on You-tube, etc, and see some of the clouds of smoke blown by some of the vehicles.

Chicago to DC is about 900 miles each way, on modern roads... how mnay quarts/gallons of oil were consumed ?

[ply33]

I don't think they had figured out how to do a decent oil control ring setup until the late 1920s or even into the 1930s. And as DeSoto Frank noted, seals were not as good back then.

[Rusty_OToole]

In the twenties, Rolls Royce advised their customers that oil consumption of one gallon in 200 miles was normal.

If you think that is bad early 2 strokes, before 1920, burned an 8:1 mix of gas and oil. Someone who has run such an engine says it does not smoke as much as you would think, hardly at all. The large amount of oil is necessary to get the primitive seals to seal.

[Rusty_OToole]

A lot of oil got caked into the engine and exhaust system. It was a common service or repair item to take the exhaust off a motorcycle or car, and burn out the muffler so the engine could breathe.

2 stroke and sleeve valve engines required such service regularly.

When hi test gas and high compression came in you did not get the hard black carbon buildup in engines. Instead you got a much smaller amount of gray or white deposits on the spark plugs valves and heads.

[RPrice]

I think that most folks in the antique car hobby recognize that most of the cars drip or burn oil.

Both of my antiques drip oil very slowly.

Rog

[Larry Schramm]

I remember when the center of the road area under the car/trucks between the wheels was just black from the oil dripping. Also don't forget the road draft tubes before 1962 when PVC (Positive Ventilation Crankcase) systems were installed in vehicles. That road draft tube ran down to the road where it dripped.

[jeff_a]

Desoto Frank,

Thanks for your response. I Know a Model "A" Ford will deposit oil in the engine compartment w/o an oil breather tube, but didn't know if it was a by-product of combustion or just spash lubrication in general.

The trip in question was actually written-up in a Peerless dealer publication. I don't have it in front of me...but it was a report from a customer who was pleased with performance and efficiency of the car. I did write down the figures: 3,021 miles, 183 1/3 gallons of gas, 21 gallons of oil.

[F&J]

I have an old car repair book from the mid 20's... it said to expect new rings at 30,000 miles, as well as valve lapping/grinding at 15,000. Also something about taking the head off at certain intervals for scraping carbon.

Even showed a cylinder reboring tool to do oversize bores while the motor was still in the car...also a in-the-car crank grinder if you smoked one rod

Take me back... ...back when things got fixed, not tossed.

[jdome]

Desoto Frank,

The trip in question was actually written-up in a Peerless dealer publication. I don't have it in front of me...but it was a report from a customer who was pleased with performance and efficiency of the car. I did write down the figures: 3,021 miles, 183 1/3 gallons of gas, 21 gallons of oil.

That calculates to about 16.5 MPG and a quart of oil every 36 miles.

[Rusty_OToole]

More likely 21 quarts of oil which would be one every 144 miles.

[Guest DeSoto Frank]

Desoto Frank,

Thanks for your response. I Know a Model "A" Ford will deposit oil in the engine compartment w/o an oil breather tube, but didn't know if it was a by-product of combustion or just spash lubrication in general.

The trip in question was actually written-up in a Peerless dealer publication. I don't have it in front of me...but it was a report from a customer who was pleased with performance and efficiency of the car. I did write down the figures: 3,021 miles, 183 1/3 gallons of gas, 21 gallons of oil.

Wow, that's about a quart of oil every 35 miles... but also an average of 16 mpg on fuel consumption.

Not sure when the three-piece "flexible" oil ring came along; probably not until the late 1930s...

[Guest BJM]

I did write down the figures: 3,021 miles, 183 1/3 gallons of gas, 21 gallons of oil.

16.48 miles per gallon (not bad) as others have noted -

143.85 miles per gallon of oil or in a modern application - 36.00 miles per quart.

I would say most of it was burning, just a guess but maybe 75% was burning but splash lubrication or allowing oil to get to places it might not normally get to (for a good purpose) was probably engineered into the engine design.

I wonder what the viscosity of the oil was back then?

Edited January 10, 2010 by BJM (see edit history)

[TexRiv_63]

My 32 Cadillac shop manual specified 40 weight oil for summer use and 50 weight if the car was to be used at high speeds, my guess is that was more to control oil usage than to provide better lubrication.

[jeff_a]

I was hoping that this was some kind of typo, or the owner meant 21 quarts of oil. It just boggles the mind to think of preparing for a 3,000-mile trip and someone saying: "Did you remember to throw in the seven cases of oil in the back seat?"

[jdome]

If this was a brass era car with total loss drip oiling ,then 36 miles/qt would be good for a big engine car. A total loss system means you would pour oil in a reservoir that would pipe oil to the various lube points. Oil literally trickles into one end of a main bearing and out the other end and onto the ground, that is if it doesn't splatter all over the underside of the car first. Some oil got burn up in the cylinders but the rest ended up on the ground. There is no provision to return the oil to the reservoir, you had to refill the reservoir with new oil periodically. This anticipated loss was termed "consume" back in the day.

20's cars have closed systems that recycle the oil but no where near as effective as today. The 144 miles/qt figure using 21 qts would seem more typical of a 20's car, however, that doesn't account for the 1000 mile oil changes recommended during the 20's. Three oil changes of 6 qts each would use most of the 21 qts and there is no way a 20's car would only consume 3 qts in 3000 miles.

[ex98thdrill]

Even with rebuilt engines, a lot of the older cars smoked then as they do today. The precision also wasn't there when it came to construction of engines and parts either...

[Guest cben09]

Then as now,,,some shops do better work,,The Hedstrom Indian bikes,,that is,,pre 16,,the cylenders were LAPPED,,Not honed,,,wow,,,These were precision,,when they went to roller bearing rods the rod bores were lapped also,,,no big deal,,they all did it,,,, From fuzzy memory,,[ it didnt seem important to remember] the big engines,,350cid up maybee,,seems like they burned a quart in 100 to a qt in 300 if it was tight,,when it got down around 80-50 mi per qt the smoke would start,,,and it was smokin good by 30 /mi,,The Packard manual of mid 20s mentioned that if stopping for oil was inconvient,,,just add an extra gallon,,on trips,,and stop less often,,,There were small holes below the bottom ring to return the oil scraped by the bottom ring,,The better setup was lap joint rings,,Oil control rings came in about 1925 along w/ alloy pistons,,and oval and taperd pistons,,These alloy pistons need lots more clearence,,and tend to be noisier,,I wonder how many Silver Ghost have the old pistons,,Does anyone here know what clearence was used on the iron pistons,,??? All this was about the time of 4 wheel brakes,,,,exciting times,,Better stop here before I remble off again,,,Nice day,,+20 at 2pm,,,roads dusty,DUSTY,,bring Moxie or Pepsi to kill the salt dust,,,aaaarrrgh haghh petuii,,,,Ben ,,..,, yes the store carries Moxie in winter too the towns here are more like extended family,,The cider wont get hard til 19 April [local joke on the RedCoats] cb

[jeff_a]

Thanks for all the comments and opinions on what might be going on. I've heard that the "total loss" system from the pre-1910-era could mean, if you were in a car race and in car #2, the oil from car #1 would really blast you!

I found the source of the mileage quote. It is on an original dealer newsletter from about 1928 for sale on the "autolit.com" site. A Peerless 6-80 owner said he used "...twenty-one gallons of oil on the trip and his total repairs consisted of $2.50 for replacement of a screw which worked out of the carburetor and $1.50 for repair of one puncture. Mr. Crooke is an owner who takes wonderful care of his car and is very proud of its performance."

Edited January 16, 2010 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[Guest DeSoto Frank]

I was hoping that this was some kind of typo, or the owner meant 21 quarts of oil. It just boggles the mind to think of preparing for a 3,000-mile trip and someone saying: "Did you remember to throw in the seven cases of oil in the back seat?"

I'm not sure oil was packaged by the quart back then....

My Dad and Grandad both had accumulations of one & five gallon oil cans that developed over the years; one of the later ones being a 2.5 gallon "square" can for Sears "Spectrum" motor oil from the early 1970's... Dad used that one as a gas-can for the mowers.

I'm old enough to remember oil being packaged in the cardboard quart cans with the steel ends, and you needed a special spout to puncture the can and "carefully" dispense the oil ( they still leaked!).

Dad & Grandad also had a variety of one-quart mason jars with several types of pour tops: funnel type, flex-spout... and there were "six-pack" wire carrier baskets that enabled garages to easily transport the quart jars of oil from the bulk tank/pump to the car being serviced.

The "official" oil jars had a narrow neck, that flared again to the mason-jar thread, to make them easier to grab.

Prior to the 1930's, I would think that oil was generally purchased by the gallon / barrel, then decanted into quart jars or spout-pitchers for adding to the engine.

As engine technology improved during the late '20's and 1930's, oil consupmtion probably dropped to the point where packaging in quart containers became attractive, and folks carried a couple quarts in the trunk.

As for brass cars and "total loss" oiling, around 1975, I remember reading a hard-cover book on the antique cars in the Smithsonian collection, and one of the cars was a Simplex runabout... a huge car. If I remember correctly, this car had a 40-gallon gasoline tank, and a 20 gallon oil tank, both situated behind the bucket seats...

Total loss probably helped keep the dust down a bit on dirt roads, but I wouldn't want to follow one on pavement !

:cool:

Edited January 16, 2010 by DeSoto Frank
spelling (see edit history)

[jeff_a]

Frank,

A good point about oil not being sold in quart containers back in the old days. I used the idea of bringing seven cases of oil on a long trip as a way to underline how unusual that would seem to the modern car owner. Of course, even if eight gallons of oil per thousand miles was considered good back then, the average guy would buy it on the road, I think, instead of bringing it.

We should make a point of asking someone we know who's old enough to remember driving newer cars back in the late 20's. Maybe they would remember if it took a quart of oil or a gallon to drive from Columbus to Cleveland.

The report on oil & gas consumption was from the December 9th, 1927 CO-OPERATOR, published by Peerless for their dealers. I actually have a Peerless of the same model as the one used by the driver in question, but it's not exactly running yet. When I get it running I'll have to report in! Don't expect my oil and gas mileage to be better in an 80-year-old car, though.

[Guest rbl2]

I'm not anywhere near old enough to even lie about having a new car back in the 20's. Good luck with that one. However, I do have a 26 Chevy that I drive fairly often. It drops a quart of oil every 75-100 miles at the most. I can't say how many miles are on the engine but it runs very good and does not smoke unless I put MMO in the fuel tank, and then very little.