headlight kit

[Guest ekvh]

Barney, I sent you a PM for a headlight kit. Yhanks.

[Jim]

I happened to click on this thread and it reminded me of something regarding these PMs.

In my case it is always best to send an email directly to me and probably others, Barney in this case.

I usually check this forum at least once a day but always check my emails about 8 times per day. I may miss a PM.

Speaking of PMs I am going to start another thread about them. It used to be there would be a little flag that popped up saying we had a PM waiting. I don't believe it is there anymore as I have missed several PMs because the flag is not there.

Jim

[Jim]

In my case sending a regular email works best and maybe also in this case sending one directly to Barney. I know I have missed PMs because I usually check this forum at least once a day but my emails several times daily.

Speaking of PMs I am going to start another thread about them. It used to be there would be a little flag that popped up saying we had a PM waiting. I don't believe it is there anymore as I have missed several PMs because the flag is not there.

Jim

Edited October 22, 2009 by Jim (see edit history)

[Guest steveskyhawk]

ekvh,

If you want a premimium quality repair for your headlight assemblies I suggest you contact Kingsley at hkbjr@yahoo.com. He also sells on ebay. I have compared Kingsley's hardware to barney's and Kingsley's is far superior. Prior to kingsley reverse engineering this hardware the only option was a temporary repair. Kingsley's crankarms will outlast the rest of the car.

[Jim]

How to make friends and influence people.

I have seen and used Barney's bellcranks and they are a very good reproduction made of steel and like Kingsleys will last forever. Barney's are about 1/2 the price but do not look like the originals.

Kingsley's are also a very good bellcrank and with his steel sleeve they will also last forever. Kingsley's are not reproductions but rebuilt originals. I know because Kingsley got about 50 worn out bellcranks from me.

I would recommend getting from either supplier as both have a good product.

[Booreatta]

I agree with Jim, I have used Barneys several time and have always had exellent results. The repair should last for the rest of my life and I dont plan on going anywhere for a long time.

[Guest steveskyhawk]

Correction: Mr finn is 1/2 correct on Kingsley's products. Kingsley produces a REBUILT bellcrank for those of you that want to stay original for that all important 400 point judging. Kingsley also produces a REPRODUCTION bellcrank made from all new material which is a new design. Both of Kingsley's bellcrank solutions are far superior to the original and his competitor's in my opinion. I have seen both. The fit on the motor shaft is perfect unlike the others. I can post a picture of them side by side if anyone wishes. As far as price goes I can only say that you get what you pay for. This is not a personal issue or a personality contest. I like to use the best hardware available. Headlight repair is not a job that you want to revisit if you don't have to.

[jonlabree]

Steve; Do you consider the bellcranks that you purchased twice a good as Barney's? I personally can't see paying twice the price for somethings that are equally well designed and made.:confused:

Barney's units are well made and will last the life time of the car.

As for staying stock, do you think that a judge is going to take apart the headlight unit to see if the parts are stock?

[Guest ekvh]

Mine is a DD, and I went cheapest, but some of my choice was based on the advise given freely from Barney through the forum. Without this Forum and advice from Barney, Jim Finn, Padgett, Ronnie, F14crazy, and many others,my Reatta wouldn't be here. ( I am sure I missed some and didn't mean to offend anyone) It would have been in a junk yard and then bought by Jim Finn. I recall reading of others who have purchased large quantities of items to help keeping Reatta's going. When they do run out, I'll be thankful to guys like Kingsley who can engineer newer, redesigned parts.

So someone, get going, and figure out this windshield issue!!!!

[Guest ekvh]

And Daniel and 63 viking and 100 others.

[Barney Eaton]

Steve is welcome to express his opinions. I feel they are overstated and there are reasons that there are big differences in the parts sold by Kingsley and myself.

First his time line is not correct. Way back around 1999, my sketches probably have dates.

We were looking for a "homemade" fix for the factory bellcranks because at that time they were about $60. I first made a modified washer, and quickly learned that would not work.

The next step was a strap of metal that was modified to fix the problem and it worked but would work even better if it could be made thicker. The only way to make it thicker was to take metal off the factory bellcrank and most Reatta owners did not have the tools or talant to do that. But we lived with that because the factory replacement parts continued to escelate in price.

Sometime around 2004 I was picking up various headlight motors at salvage yards for the spare parts and noticed that GM used many different arm (bellcrank) designs. I started accumulating the different arms and trying to find a way to make one of them work. At the same time I was talking with machine shops about making a steel part. The problem is they want lots of money up front and you must run thousands of parts to get the price down.

I was able to modify a factory Pontiac part to work on the Reatta. I used them on my own car for some time while picking up more used parts. When I had a small supply of used parts to modify, I started offering them to Reatta owners. (all of my bellcranks for the last 2 years have been NEW stampings)

Kingsley came involved at least 2-3 years later. He first started making convertible visor clips. His visor clips are excellant and we have talked about the cost etc. The problem with being a vendor of visor clips is the limited demand. If you sold a pair to every convertible owner, the demand would be 5,000. On top of that, there is an upfront cost of tooling and the decision on what colors to stock in what quantities. He can have the business, and headaches that go with making them.

Then he decided to go into the bellcrank business. Starting with reworking the factory bellcrank, but the problem, as he can tell you, is getting good used parts to rework. Probably because of this problem, he went the route of making them from scratch. From a design/tooling standpoint, he went with 1/4 in thick steel, not because it is needed, but you need that thickness at the point where the motor shaft fits..... and it is easier to make the entire piece thick than to weld or otherwise attach a thick section at that end. Because of these factors, his steel part is a brute, but the part that fails on the Reatta part is the same thickness as my stamped steel part.

I have been selling the stamped steel Reatta headlight bellcranks for about 5 years. I had some initial problems (3-4) with the stop coming off.......that was because in the beginning I was using a borrowed wire feed welder. When I purchased my own welder, I went with a unit that has Argon gas and there are no weld problems. I can say in the last 3 + years, I have not replaced a bad unit. If you have purchased a bellcrank from me and have a problem, return it for replacement.

Kingsley seems to make good parts (I have never seen either of his parts in person) but because of his manufacturing process he must charge more. You as the customer must decide if you want to pay more for a part that functions the same as mine.

PS I am also a BCA and Reatta Division member.

Edited October 24, 2009 by Barney Eaton (see edit history)

[Reattatude]

FWIW- I believe Kingsely also requires your old bellcranks as "cores" when you buy from him.

[Guest Kingsley]

While I will respond in due course to furnish meaningful information, I respectfully note that it is apparent that some POSTS are just clownish, meaningless born only of simple hero worship and contribute absolutely nothing.

One further comment - cores are very generously returned to me - I offer to pay return postage. My NEW DESIGN crank arm does not require a core and even those knowledgeable buyers are only too happy to return them in appreciation for the product and service they receive.

I am certainly indebted to Jim Finn for his sale to me of 50 cores so that I was able to build inventory and always have them available.

As mentioned, I still have a substantive response forthcoming which will explain the logic behind my manufacture of products for Reattas.

Kingsley

[Guest Richard D]

ANYBODY WHO MAKES REPLACEMENT PARTS OR STOCKS PARTS CARS FOR OUR CARS IS OK WITH ME!

Richard.

[Guest steveskyhawk]

"Steve; Do you consider the bellcranks that you purchased twice a good as Barney's? "

Jon, I'm not sure how one could say one part is twice as good but yes I believe that Kingsley's Crankarms are signifigantly better

"I have never seen either of his parts in person"

Barney, as "technical advisor" I think you will be impressed with with the quality of Kingsley's bellcranks when you decide to inspect them yourself. Can I arrange to have him send you a sample?

"Mine is a DD, and I went cheapest"

ekvh, If you drive your car as a daily driver, night and day, in all kinds of weather do you think putting the cheapest parts on your headlights is wise? I'm sure you would gladly pay the difference some night when your headlight mechanisms fail again.

Guys and gals, I have no financial intrest in any part sales whatsoever. I simply want the other forum members to have benifit of my experience. I believe that some replacement parts are better than others and would not have offered an opinion unless I had seen all the available harware. I apologise if I have ruffeled some feathers but all parts aren't the same, headlights aren't fun to fix more than once, and they an absolute must from a safety standpoint.

[Guest spyhunter2k]

I don't see any clownish posts reflecting meaningless hero worship--just a couple of people chiming in to say that they feel their Barneycranks seem plenty sturdy enough, and that they appreciate his other contributions to Reattadom.

I think every Reatta owner is appreciative of anyone who assumes the task of reproducing a faulty part. Kingsley's parts look to be well-made and the result of much R and D effort. I still chose Barney's due to the simple cost/benefit analysis mentioned already, having asked myself if there seemed to be enough of an extra benefit to Kingsley's design to justify the extra cost. (Did part of my decision have to do with being more familiar with Barney as a regular poster? Sure, but that's just human nature--not hero worship.) Others, like Steve, apparently feel the benefits of Kingsley's design are worth the extra cost, so I guess it's good that we have a choice.

[Guest ekvh]

Analysis-paralysis .... end the thread, everybody.

[Barney Eaton]

The picture below is a failure mode that will not go away. The plastic rollers inside the motor are the "fuse" of the system and their life is unknown. There are people selling aluminum rollers.......DO NOT use metal rollers because they will not fail and something else more expensive will.

The 17,000 mile coupe I just purchased had bad rollers, I have had owners with under 10,000 miles call about non-working headlights and it was the rollers.

If someone wants to develope a "perfect" part, work on the rollers.

(1) It must be strong enought to take the torque of the headlight drive system.

(2) It must be tough and not crack and crumble from the torque.

(3) It should be reasonably priced

The problem I see is how do you find the material and then do a reliable "life test" that will tell you they will last 20 years?

Bottom line......using any of the replacement bellcranks, you will need to replace rollers at some point. Their life MAY be related to tempature.... both heat and cold can affect plastics so until someone take this on as a project, we are stuck with the products that are available.

[wws944]

... I have had owners with under 10,000 miles call about non-working headlights and it was the rollers...

... including me. As of last august, my Reatta had 9300 miles on it. Both headlight motors have had to be repaired in the last few months. One with a 'remanufactured' motor - which probably just had its rollers replaced. The other I did myself a couple of weeks ago with Barneys kit.

Bottom line......using any of the replacement bellcranks, you will need to replace rollers at some point. Their life MAY be related to tempature.... both heat and cold can affect plastics so until someone take this on as a project, we are stuck with the products that are available.

Mine has been garaged for the past 18 years, and almost never driven at night. I think the plastic rollers simply get brittle with age. And of course temperature extremes may accelerate the deterioration.

A neighbor of mine worked in a Corvette-oriented shop for a couple of years. He said the C-4 (I think) has the same problem, and they did quite a bit of business fixing them.

Barneys comments about them being a "fuse" in the system also makes sense. For example, what if the car was covered in ice and snow and the lids were stuck? Or think of your teenage kids and/or their friends thinking how much fun it would be to sit on them while they try to go up and down...

As for the bell cranks, I have one of Barneys and would have no problem using it had I needed it. But after disassembling things, my original bell crank seemed fine. So I am keeping the new one as a spare.

[Guest Telco]

Say, how much are these headlight kits? I just changed the bulbs on my car last night and the bell cranks looked a little weak and wobbly. I have no idea what the specs are supposed to be like how wobbly they should be, but in the event of a failure I'd like to know what I'm looking at. Thanks.

[Guest Kingsley]

Telco - I note your comment. If you look backover this thread you will see some interesting information relating to crank arms. I have a response coming on shortly to counter some of the issues relating to my crank arm models and the reason for their existence. To get complete info on mine, take a look on ebay and it is there - I will not take up Forum time as this moment. More than likely, you have the poorly designed/manufactured OE crank arms and their are two sources for the cure. Suggest you check the internet for my offerings and view the previous posts. In this Forum, you have a tremendous amount of free expertise available to you so make the most use of it you can. Incidentally, I do sell direct as opposed to the internet and will gladly take your personal check without waiting for its arrival or cleanrance. I am a trusitng fellow and so far have no reason to do otherwise.

Kingsley

[Guest Telco]

Good deal, thanks. As mine are working at this time there's no pressing need, so I'll keep watching this thread with interest.

[Guest Kingsley]

It has been interesting to see all of the discussions with respect to the merits and pricing of the Reatta parts which I produce and this post is an addendum to the one I posted on Sunday.

First and foremost - this is not any personal issue what so ever - just a presentation of the facts surrounding the parts offered by both Barney and by me.

There is no question that the parts furnished earlier were heartily welcomed as they filled a need for the failing crank arms. Had I know of them earlier, I could have saved big bucks on my first Reatta.

It was only after I owned my third Reatta, a '90 convertible that I learned of "broken sun visor clips" and purchased those then available. I felt that Reatta convertible owners, including me, might like something better and devoted a lot to time, energy and money in learning about CADs, injection molding, homogenous colored resin and all the other nuances involved in making a replication to my standards. As has been mentioned earlier by Barney, certainly a risky investment for a relatively low volume item but all of the risk parameters were examined and in the end it was a risk that I was willing to take. My clips, from the very beginning, were extremely well received and continue so. Some day I may break even but in the meantime I am afforded a lot of satisfaction in what I have accomplished in being able to offer professional, perfect replications for the convertible owners. They seem to be welll pleased.

There are three important points that I view in a crank arm. First - the OE designer and manufacturer saw fit to utilize a thermoplastic bumper on the end of the crank arm to absorb the substantial impact when it opens and closes and I have replicated it. You do not have to transfer the old beat up, distorted bumper - just thrown it away and use the new one I furnish.

Secondly, we are all aware of the weakness of the OE crank arm centering around the retract motor shaft "DD" hole. Both of my models have, at a minimum, solid 1/4" mile steel surfaces which contact 100% of the motor flats. I am quite familiar with the Pontiac crank arm, I believe it is Triangle model 6064, and opted not to use it becasue of the thin pressed steel "shell" which makes up over 50% of the crank arm bearing surface.

Thirdly - the stud for the link arm on my NEW DESIGN model is exactly as the OE part - precision machined to fit in the machined brass bushings of the link arm. This is opposed to the under-sized machine screw which replaces the finely-fit connection of the Pontiac crank arm. This creates initial slack which gets progressively worse as the screw threads cut into the brass bushings of the link arm. Slack, any slack, is the enemy of the assembly linkage - it causes nuts to loosen and it is down hill from there. Perhaps felt more in one area - how many broken stabilizer nuts - also called UP-STOP nuts and jiggling headlamps do you see? Even further, the Pontiac crank arm has a certain dimension that is slightly greater than the OE part and this, combined with a worn out bumper, causes slight over-rotation of the headlamp assembly beyond the point of max open - it starts to close a bit. All of these points taken collectively affect headlamp performance. Another detail - the width of the crank arm the motor shaft on both my models is abut 3/4". I use a special order wide flange self-locking all metal hex nut (far superior to the less sized nut with nylon retainer) as well as an even wider flat washer to go underneath it. Combined, a lot of pressure bearing on the crank arm to insure no loosening of the nut.

Are my products an overkill - I think that "state of the art" is more appropriate and perhaps folks like to have a choice. The mention of "twice the price", as it relates to my NEW DESIGN may be the fault of a mal-functioning calculator. The response I receive from Reatta owners, both Forum participants and non-participants bears this out and I am grateful to them.

Lest this be overlooked - I applaud everone's (and that is by far most of them) meaningful contributions to the Forum.

I am a member and strongly support the AACA, the BCA and the Reatta Division who make this Forum possible - why not join today!

Kingsley

Edited October 27, 2009 by Kingsley
Correct typos that I should have caught before! (see edit history)

[Ronnie]

I want to stay neutral about who has the best crank arms available for purchase. I'm sure both sellers have great products.

With the economy being so bad, and lots of people being out of work, I thought I would point out that there is an option for those folks on a limited budget. You can repair your old crank arms for less than $5.00 if you have the tools and are able to follow instructions.

Instructions with photos are here that tell you step by step how to do it. I repaired my crank arms three years ago and they have been trouble free.

[DAVES89]

There you go. Another alternative repair for a problem area on the Reatta.

Now if someone could just come up with a way to illuminate the shifter, life would be grand!

[BrentS]

For a New Yorker, I'm hoping the windshield "crisis" is somehow mitigated. That seems like the most probable way to be forced to junk a car in this state.

Excellent info all over this forum! Continued thanks to everyone!

[Guest Kingsley]

telco - Your posting indicated that your crank arms were "weak and wobbly" and in all the flack and furor that followed I do not believe any comment was made with regard to the cause of your problem although you may have gleaned from subsequent postings. "Weak and wobbly" is the precursor of complete round out of the crank arm necessitate relacement of the crank arms. Due to the relative cheapness of three "rollers" mentioned below, one would be strongly remiss if not replaceing at the same time you change the crank arm.

Before going on, welcome to the Forum and, now that you have a Reatta ,the next biggest favor you can do for yourself is to take advantage of all of the expertise that is available on it

which comes from the school of hard knocks attended by Reatta owners over many years and dedication to solving the inevitable issues that always come along.

My comments following are for the benefit of new Forum participants - all of the fellows who have been reading the threads for years know this stuff.

On your issue - the OE crank arm was made of diecast zinc - a material entirely too soft to bear up under the stress generated by the opening and closing of the headlamps. They open and close in the blink of an eye - a nanosecond - an open and close involves a high torque open followed by an abupt stop of an assembly that weighs just several ounces shy of 6 poundS. As an indication of the torque, the crank arm lever is just a little over 1" long.

The closing is not a gravity one but powered thus you have two impacts per open and close and the latter has the benefit of not being under great load so the stop impact is probably greater than the open. The impact, open and close, comes when the end of the crank arm and its "bumper"during rotation, comes into contact with a stop molded into the base frame assembly. This impact causes a lot of stress at the mounting of the crank arm on the retract motor shaft - the top section of which has, below the 6mm threaded section, two flat sides and is commonly called a "DD configuration. The die cast zinc OE crank arm material just cannot stand the gaff; however, having said that the cursed die cast zinc crank arm did last for an amazing number of years before turning sour.

The stress of the impact on the retract motor shaft is further transmitted into the lower gear case of the motor. I stand to be corrected but the weak point there is not so much the white nylon gear but the three plastic (bushings, rollers, pucks, or whatever) which act as the conduit of power between the helical gear of the armature shaft, the white nylon gear through the pucks to the retract motor shaft.

At the point of impact, the motor is instantaneously inactivated by the headlamp module which also changes the rotation of the motor for the next rotation activated by the headlmap switch.

All of the above is repeitious of discussions which have been placed on the Forum previously but perhaps not in this more tutorial manner of presentaion. If this not not exactly the case, I stand to be corrected.

Kingsley

[Guest Kingsley]

Barney - this relates to your mention of the need for a better roller for the retract motor gear case. We are aware of the verbiage "OEM nylon" and now "Delrin" and respectully to the vendors of the aluminum ones, I am not a fan of them.

In checking out the specifics of both of these plastics, all of these two materials each have quite a number of individual makeups plus just the technology has improved through the years. There could well be some acceptable nylon out there now and I certainly am no chemist.

You have asked for someone to delve into this and I will volunteer as best I can. I am in the position of being able to test the material in the exact mechanical environment as they operate in the Reatta and can automatically cycle the headlamp for a period of time without attendance. I will never cycle every 5 second for over an hour again - some warmed up gremlin will cut it off. Probably ten seconds will be fine. I have heard that automotive products are tested to the equivalent of 5 years of useage so how many cyles would be involved in a normal year. Any ideas from anyone?

Further - I have samples of six different roller Bs from various vendors ranging from 2 models of aluminum (one solid, the other hollow core) to three solid plastic ones and one hollow core.

Interestingly, all six have different dimensions both in OD and length. The OE dimensionS shown in your drawing early on, or something extremely close, is preferable in my view and for the time being, I use Delrin. Some of the models in aluminum and plastic have smaller diameters which, overall will not impact extent of rotation will open up a bit of looseness in the interaction between the white gear and the shaft flange - possibly adding to the impact on the Roller Bs and their early destruction.

Unfortumately I cannot give a time frame for completing all of this and it may take some time.

Testing is no great problem but delving into material properties is not my long suit.

All comments and suggestions would be appreciated.

[Guest Telco]

Thanks Kingsley. While I am new to the Reatta world I do bring some 20 years experience in GM products with me, as a shade tree mechanic. I also have a tendency to make things I want happen regardless of who says it won't work, and have made some very oddball parts fit together and work well as a result. My biggest problem is I tend to be slow as cheese through an old man when it comes down to breaking out the toolbox, mainly because of family obligations and limited funding. My last project involved a GMC S15 ext cab pickup that I was lining up to do a V8 swap in this last summer until some girl ran a stop sign and totaled my truck for me. After 6 months of trying to find a replacement I stumbled across my Reatta, which owning one has been one of those bucket list things for me.

On the headlight issue, it seems to me that GM's habit of doing it the cheapest way possible is the problem here. For example, instead of building an electrical control that would move the headlight more slowly, smoothly and softly, they chose to slam them open and closed and use a bumper to take the impact. I don't see that it would be that hard to design an electrical circuit that would slow down the voltage rise and drop to soften the impact, which would mean the parts designed to live under those intense impacts for a shorter time would last a lot longer. This is something I plan to look into, because I wince every time the headlights open and close, because it sounds like someone dropping a bowling ball. They are a lot more harsh than other non-GM flip headlights I've seen in operation.

[Guest Kingsley]

telo - "new comer" applies to you in a very limited fashion. I have done a lot of thinking on a curative fix for the impact and have some ideas that I am working on. A bit of trivia - I have calculated the gear ratio between the helical gear on the amature shaft and ultimately to the crank arm shaft and it is 54 to 1. I know not the input rpm and am not enough (by far) of any electrician to know if motor rpm can be manipulated (rheostat?)

I have two approaches I am working on witin the frame work of the existing retract motor - finding a softer impact stop and, more workable I believe would be a linkage modification. All of this without getting too cumberson.

I do know that loose crank arms and deteriorating (ed) bushings can have an impact on the noise aspect.

I certainly appreciate your innovative spirit.

Edited October 29, 2009 by Kingsley
Looked at my dictionary! (see edit history)

[padgett]

The problem is that a stopped motor pulls more current than a spinning one. The headlamp module senses the increase in current when the motor hits the stop and shuts it off. If you add resistance to slow the motor down , the current may not peak high enough to shut the motor off and it will sit there stalled and getting hot.

This is a common problem with 84-86 Fieros which use a torque switch in the motor itself. If not enough is there to open the switch, it just sits there.

[Ronnie]

The DC motor could be accurately controlled by using a PCM (Pulsed Width Modulation) circuit board to control the speed and the torque separately. Instead of limiting the current to the motor, the PCM drive turns it on and off rapidly to control the speed. It is used all the time on industrial equipment. One drawback is you would be paying an industrial price to buy one. :eek:

Edited October 30, 2009 by Ronnie (see edit history)

[Guest Telco]

Interesting. I ran this by some electronics experts that recommended a series resistor, but they are making their recommendations based on what I tell them. I was not aware of the torque sensing being done by measuring current draw. I'll add that into the mix and see what they say.

Hey, one other suggestion was wiring the motors in series. I don't have a wiring diagram for the car, are the motors wired in series or do they have their own wiring paths? The idea was if they are wired separately then putting them in series would slow them down to half speed, but as they'd both to go full resistance at about the same time they'd put the same amount of current draw which should trip the off switch.

Edited October 30, 2009 by Telco (see edit history)

[Guest Kingsley]

Telco - this get more interesting and contributive by each post.

I also have a fellow, deeply involved and knowledgeable in all of these motors throughout the GM spectrum, who is working on it for it - he also immediately raised the negative of reducing the rpms as mentioned on Forum earlier.

With enough folks working on the rpm aspect, I am looking at other alternatives which will give the same impact as the reduced rpm without the negative consequences.