Question about Judging Rules

[zulaytr]

I am about to participate in my first AACA show and I have a question about the rules that I could not find any reference to in the outline. I have shown my car in different venues before but I have never done so in an AACA one. The question is- is there a point deductions for a signature on the dash? An example would be having a Carroll Shelby signature on the dash of a Shelby Mustang. I have a signature on the glove box door, which I could swap out if needed, by a historical person for the car. It does add to the history of the car, but if there is an associated deduction I will change out the parts before hand. If not I would prefer to leave it there.

Thanks,

Bob

[ex98thdrill]

If the car wasn't delivered from the factory with Carroll Shelby's signature, swap it out during the show. I would have a tough time making the deduction on your vehicle if I were judging it, but according to the rules you could face the deduction if a judge decided to take it. As soon as they put the judged sticker on your windshield card, put it back on. If you're not worried about the deduction (shouldn't be more than 2 points), leave it on.

From a personal standpoint (and only mine, you'll get different opinions) If I were in your shoes, and the car was that nice, I'd take it off based on what your competition is in your class. If your car is more correct and nicer than another car going for the same award in your class, I'd leave it on, if your car is the only one in the class and the rest of it is nice, I'd definately leave it on. If the car has another car in the class that is equally or more correct than your car, or if you have any doubts, take it off.

[Shop Rat]

ex98thdrill gave you very good advice. He knows what he is talking about.

I would further tell you that even one point off can stop you from getting the award the car might otherwise deserve. Why? Because you have to make the ten point spread from the highest scoring vehicle in your class. If that is your car, no sweat. But if your car is not the highest scoring vehicle and you don't make the ten point cut then you get the next award down. So you can see why even one point off should be avoided if possible.

I personally would only take one point for a signature like you are talking about.

But if it came down to risking damaging the glove box door, or another component of the car, by taking it off and setting

yourself up for a larger deduction or having to make a repair....I probably would take my chances and leave the glove box door on if my car was in otherwise pristine condition.

[zulaytr]

Thank you for the comments and advice. From past experiences I know how critical a point or two can be, so I appreciate the candor. I have had to take it off before so removal is not really a problem.

Thanks again

Bob

[Shop Rat]

You're welcome Bob and good luck at the show. Be sure to come back and tell us how you did.

[serb]

Did a "Shelby" Mustang come that way from the factory....No! Shelby made it a "Shelby" Mustang. Based on that thinking, if the fact that it is a "Shelby", shouldn't the signature be ok and not create a deduction?

Just asking.

stevo

[Jay Wolf]

I would think it could pass under.

"a. Badges and license plate frames with

club names other than AACA will NOT be

subject to a deduction for authenticity, if

they are appropriate to the vehicle and displayed

in good taste. They will be judged

for condition."

If it was well executed I would let it pass or deduct 1 point at most.

[novaman]

unfortunely this is one of the gray areas that the judge needs to use those two words.... what were they.... oh... common scense (I know what it is I just can't spell it).

I disagree about it falling under

"a. Badges and license plate frames with

club names other than AACA will NOT be

subject to a deduction for authenticity, if

they are appropriate to the vehicle and displayed

in good taste. They will be judged

for condition."

It's not a badge or plate frame and Shelby is not a club. BUT.. if it signed in good taste (which since it was one of "his" cars I would think it would be), I wouldn't deduct for it. Now if it was anyone else's signture on this shelby, I'd probably take 1.

[Jay Wolf]

I guess the reason I would let it pass as a "Club name" is that it is a very common. I think half the Shelby's I have seen have the glove box or visor signed.

I guess let it fall under "they are appropriate to the vehicle and displayed

in good taste."

[Chris Paulsen]

I would say it depends entirely on the judges. A couple years ago, at Hershey, there was a car that scored a perfect 400 points. It had several modern club badges on it that should have each been 1 point deductions, but the judges overlooked them.

Interesting question.

Good luck,

Chris

[Shop Rat]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chris Paulsen</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would say it depends entirely on the judges. A couple years ago, at Hershey, there was a car that scored a perfect 400 points. It had several modern club badges on it that should have each been 1 point deductions, but the judges overlooked them.

Interesting question.

Good luck,

Chris

</div></div>

novaman posted this in his message further up in this thread. It is directly quoted out of the Judges Guidebook.

"a. Badges and license plate frames with

club names other than AACA will NOT be

subject to a deduction for authenticity, if

they are appropriate to the vehicle and displayed

in good taste. They will be judged

for condition."

That is what we are taught in judging schools and CJE classes. Most instructors also add that there should not be an excessive amount of these badges. And that the badges/license plate frame must be club/award related and not something from a non-automobile club/group, ie. decals from the branch of the service you served in, square dancing group, etc.

So my guess is that is why no deductions were taken from that car. Since you know the score the car got I take it you were on the team that judged the car. If so then I'm surprised that you didn't already know why points weren't deducted.

[Guest bossmustang]

Bob,

I am a longtime Mustang judge I know that Shelby signs a lot of glovebox doors and I do not find it inappropriate. My advice is to tell the team captain when he or she introduces themselves to you and welcomes you to the show. As a team captain, I would discuss it with the interior judge and we would reach a decision. Myself, I see no points deduction.

Jim Aberts

1970 BOSS 302

1978 Mustang II

1996 GT

[DizzyDale]

Sorry for the hijack......I just had to tell Jim that i thought he had the best Boss 302 Mustang on the planet and oh yea, IT'S the ONLY color for that car.Same as on the Trans Am cars in 70s,diz

[Chris Paulsen]

Susan,

I stand corrected. My apologies. Is it possible that rule has changed? I will have to look in the last print copy of the judging guidelines I have.

I was not on the judging team.

Respectfully,

Chris

[Shop Rat]

No problem. As far back as I can remember, and I have been judging since Sept. 1990, it has been this way. They allow items (award badges and license plate frames) from other clubs as long as they are tastefully displayed and not in excess.

Since you were not on the team, by your own admission, I am not sure how you found out the car scored 400 points. If it was an AACA show, which it sounded like it was, no judge, Team Captain or any member working the show is allowed to reveal scores. So if a judge/Team Captain/AACA member working at the show told you the score you need to remind them that if they are caught revealing scores they will be banned from judging at AACA events.

[Guest bossmustang]

Thanks for your kind comments Diz. It's a beautiful day here in southeastern PA and I just brought the BOSS back from driving our normal loop. Loads of fun and worth every penny for that Sunoco 100 octane.

Jim

[ex98thdrill]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am a longtime Mustang judge I know that Shelby signs a lot of glovebox doors and I do not find it inappropriate. My advice is to tell the team captain when he or she introduces themselves to you and welcomes you to the show. As a team captain, I would discuss it with the interior judge and we would reach a decision. Myself, I see no points deduction.</div></div> Jim, I fully agree with everything that you are saying. I wouldn't take the deduction either, but from time to time you might find a judge who was <span style="font-style: italic">'potty trained at gunpoint'</span> who would take the deduction. I can't see where it would be worth more than a 1 point deduction, but you could find that one idiot who would try to take two.

I would probably give the same credit if it were one of the Ford's signature on a Ford, or John Delorean's signature on either a GTO or a Delorean. To add to the complexity, within the next 10 years we could start to see some signature edition vehicles coming out. In the early 90's Pontiac did a Richard Petty edition Grand Prix, Dodge did a Richard Petty signature series pickup. Since then, Chevy has done signature series edition vehicles for both Jeff Gordon and Dale Earnhardt.

As I mentioned before, if the person is in doubt, or has competition that is really good, I would switch it out until the car is finished being judged. I would rather give this person this advice to prevent them from not winning the award that they are going after if a judge chose to deduct.

If the judging team asks the owner for documentation to prove that Carroll Shelby signed all glovebox covers on Shelby Mustangs, and the owner doesn't have it, the interior judge can take the deduction and for the most part be fully within their rights according to the rules.

As much as I hate to say this with Saleen, Roush and Shelby edition Mustangs, Sinatra edition Imperials, Nascar Driver's edition cars and trucks, Eddie Bauer edition trucks, Bandit Pontiac Trans Ams, etc. it might be time to change the rules to allow for this kind of stuff, or at least specify it in the rules.

[nearchoclatetown]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ex98thdrill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

As much as I hate to say this with Saleen, Roush and Shelby edition Mustangs, Sinatra edition Imperials, Nascar Driver's edition cars and trucks, Eddie Bauer edition trucks, Bandit Pontiac Trans Ams, etc. it might be time to change the rules to allow for this kind of stuff, or at least specify it in the rules. </div></div>The rules already allow cars like this. Yenco Camaros and Shelby Mustangs have shown for years, no differant then a Roush Mustang or Ernhardt Monte Carlo. As to the signature on the dash it doesn't belong there any more then my signature would.

[ex98thdrill]

Doug I can see both sides of the coin.

From a value standpoint, if I had a Shelby Mustang, I personally feel that the signature would add value to the car, I'd be glad to have Carroll's signature on it, and as a Judge I'd have a tough time deducting for it did despite what the rules are.

Unless there was another car in the class that blew mine away from a scoring standpoint, I'd take the deduction and laugh, belittle and harass the idiot who took it.

In a similar case, we have our old fire truck, if you were judging that truck today, there are smoke stains on the rope that raises and lowers the ladder that's on that truck.

According from the AACA Judging guidelines, a deduction should be made on our fire truck because it didn't leave the factory with smoke stains on the rope, but over a period of almost 30 years, our truck use to go to fires, the ladder used to get leaned up against burning buildings, and believe it or not, it used to be exposed to water and smoke. I'm quite sure that's why the ropes are stained on our ladder. As an owner, those smoke stains show people that they are looking at a fire truck that fought a lot of fire back in its' day, and I'm not about to wash the rope on my ladder, nor do I have any intentions of putting new rope on an old ladder that has been marked up. If some idiot wants to take points off for having smoke stains on the rope on my ladder, they can take off that one point if it'll help them maintain their identity to help them feel better.

Personally if I were judging that Shelby, I wouldn't take the deduction, and if I owned that Shelby I wouldn't take it off either. As a person with some judging experience, I have made a suggestion to the owner, but I've also told him how I feel about it.

Rules are the rules, but common sense should also be used. Carroll Shelby's signature on any part of a Plymouth Barracuda would get a deduction from me.

[Restorer32]

I would take a 1 point deduction. How would Shelby's signature be any different than modern advertising signage on a commercial vehicle, also subject to point deduction?

[Shop Rat]

Sadly, this is another one of those issues that needs to be spelled out in the Judges Guidelines book A.S.A.P.

It isn't fair to leave it up to a judge to decide. It needs to be an across the board rule. You do or do not deduct, period.

Signatures usually make most things more valuable if you have proof that it is authentic; i.e. baseballs, pieces of racecars/race tires, works of art, etc. But those things are not being shown "as they came from the factory". Vehicles are.

So if handwritten signatures (as opposed to manufactured signatures that stick on in some way) are going to be an issue, then there needs to be a rule to be fair to one and all.

[nearchoclatetown]

Ok expert judges, reread the original post! The question was about AACA rules, not opinions or value. He says "for example" Carrol Shelby's signature, blah blah. No where does he say it's authentic or real. How about if he owned a VW with Adolf's signature on the dash? If the car didn't come with a signature, like a Cosworth Vega does, it doesn't belong. Has nothing to do with appeal or value. This does not sound like a club badge so that rule does not apply.

[Shop Rat]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nearchoclatetown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok expert judges, reread the original post! The question was about AACA rules, not opinions or value. He says "for example" Carrol Shelby's signature, blah blah.</div></div>

That is interesting. Now that I have re-read it he does not say it is Carroll Shelby's signature. He only used that as an example. Now I wonder who did sign the glove box.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No where does he say it's authentic or real.</div></div>

It could be a fake. Or it could be real and he can prove it with a photo taken while it was being signed by whomever signed it.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Has nothing to do with appeal or value.</div></div>

Same as what I stated. Signatures give lots of things added value but not when it comes to judging vehicles according to AACA rules.

If the signature is real, and from someone of importance, then down the road it might bring a slightly higher price for the vehicle. But it won't add to his score sheet total. It could very well lose him a point.

[javabug]

I agree with handling it under the "judge for condition" scenario. An ideal situation would be if there were a second car in the class with the signature. The signatures could be compared against each other for clarity, penmanship, consistency of application, etc. Even a difference in WHERE the signature was placed on the vehicles could have an affect on judging score.

Going further, it shoud also be taken into consideration what was used to create the signature. If a Sharpie® is used, was a Sharpie available the year the car in question was delivered by the factory? This is only an example, of course. Most likely the owner of a "factory"-correct restoration would have the foresight to supply a period-correct marking instrument. Remember, also, in this case, that documentation of both what was used to sign, and history of these items must be provided by the owners. There's no way a judge can be responsible for knowing the history of a marking instrument that might have been used when your car was new.

One last point that is probably a factor, and was mentioned previously, is was the signature applied in good taste? Say both cars have been signed by the same personality, and one is done neatly and inconspicuously on a glove box door, visor, or what have you. The second car might have been done on a day when the signor was under pressure, or maybe has been harassed by the car owner into signing the car, and instead of using a marker or pen has applied his "mark" directly to the car itself using a screwdriver, awl, or a hammer.

All points that must be considered before any amendment to the judging manual is made.

[Shop Rat]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: javabug</div><div class="ubbcode-body">An ideal situation would be if there were a second car in the class with the signature. The signatures could be compared against each other for clarity, penmanship, consistency of application, etc. </div></div>

We are not permitted to go back to a vehicle once it has been judged. So going back to compare a feature from one vehicle to another would be out of the question.

But I understand what you are saying about seeing if they both have the signature and do they pretty much match. And if they didn't it would make one wonder which one was real and which one was a fake.

[nearchoclatetown]

Java, sounds to me like you would be one of the guys 98drill was refering to being potty trained at gunpoint.

[Guest windjamer]

Near choc. God bless you, I couldnt say it better

[javabug]

Nearm&mmars, I seem to remember something, but can't say for sure. However, I'll keep that in mind in a year or so.

[zulaytr]

First of all I hope I did not create too much controversy with my question about the signature on the dash. Since I am both new to the forum and the AACA shows I thought I would ask the question in generic terms using Carroll Shelby as the example since everyone recognizes that name.

I actually have a 1972 Datsun 240Z that has won awards and shows from the East Coast to the West. It has also been awarded the ZCCA Gold Medallion Award. For that award the signature would also require a point off. The actual signature is from Mr. K. Yutaka Katayama was the first President of Nissan USA and the one attributed with bringing the Z to the US. He is well known within the Z community but may not necessarily be known as well outside that circle. I have come to realize the best approach is to remove the glove box door as suggested. That is an easy task. I do realize the importance one or two points could be, especially in a judging arena that I am not familiar with.

I am planning on going to the SE Meet in Cleveland TN next month so if anyone on this posting is going as well, please stop by and say hello.

Thanks again to all of the comments.

Bob

[Shop Rat]

Cool information about your car and who signed it. Thanks for filling us in.

It probably is best to remove the glove box door and put the other one on. It would be sad to give away the very point you might need to make the cut.

Sadly we won't be able to be there as we already have another commitment. Will the car be at Hershey?

<span style="font-weight: bold">Please, please </span>make sure that you have your fire extinguisher with you for the car when you show it. To not have one requires that the car be disqualified. And if you bring more than one vehicle you must have an extinguisher for each and every vehicle you show, not one for all of them.

[novaman]

The Earnhart and Gordon Monte Carlos gets into a sticky area. They are not GM Factory production cars as such. In the case of the Gordon Monte Carlo it was any RED '96 Monte Crlo and the dealership intalled the graphics and spoiler (did not come signed either) The package was approved by the SE Chevrolet Dealer's Assocation. You could not order this car from the Factory!! I had one. I believe the Earndhart cas were the same way.

[novaman]

Back about 1997 I asked in a judging school about these cars and was told that it since it was a regional dealer package and could not be ordered from the factory as such, there would be deductions for the graphics, spoiler, etc.

I was planning on keeping the car for show some day in the future, that is one reason I had the dealership leave the graphics off the car was so if it needed paint for any reason I wouldn't loose the graphics. Since it wasn't going to be accepted, I sold the car.

[Guest Stonefish]

sooooooooo....do Yenko cars get hit up for their graphics?

[Guest imported_Matt M, PA]

Stonefish...excellent point. I think Yenkos are "in".

Back in 1995, my then Superbird got it's National 1st..I beleive the first one so to do...and it went as far as AGNM First before we parted company.

For those that know about the winged cars...the Superbirds were wholly built by Chrysler. The sister car...the Daytona...was not. It was built as a Charger...then sent to Creative Industries for the conversion. Technically this too is a "customized" car but they are allowed in as well.

I'd bet that when the time rolls around...the Dale Earnhardt cars will be admitted. After all, the AACA allows a car to be any color, any engine, etc as long as it is available that year...so by the time these cars are old enough to be involved...there will be enough interest in them to judged. It appears to me that "from the factory" needs to be "from the dealer". (Nobody shows their car with the hubcaps in the trunk, cosmolene and plastic seat covers.)

Hmm...not what about conversion vans?

[novaman]

If I understand things correctly, the Yenko left the factory, went to Yenko, then to the dealer. I believe that is why they are accepted as "factory", where the Earndhart and Gordon cars did not arrive from the GM factory to the dealer as such.

Matt,

I had mentioned a couple years ago the statment should be something to the affect "as left the factory, intended for hiway use." This would clear the issue of the bumpers and hubcaps being in the back seat instead of on the car.

[Guest imported_Matt M, PA]

novaman....if I understand how Yenkos and Nickey's were done....in many cases they were ordered from the dealer as COPO cars...then customized at the dealer. Much like the GRand Spaulding Dodge cars.

I'm fine with these cars being judged in AACA as they were sold new to a customer after the mods.

[nearchoclatetown]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matt M, PA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">novaman....if I understand how Yenkos and Nickey's were done....in many cases they were ordered from the dealer as COPO cars...then customized at the dealer. Much like the GRand Spaulding Dodge cars.

I'm fine with these cars being judged in AACA as they were sold new to a customer after the mods. </div></div>You are right Matt M , but not all Yencos were COPOs. The first batch were just 396 cars that got an engine swap, stripes, interior, wheels, etc. And BTW, Yenco was the dealer, Cannonsburg I believe. So where's this class for conversion vans you were talking about?

[Guest Stonefish]

I have no beef with cars like the Yenko being on the show field....but, are they being hit for what they are...I can't believe they "left the factory" with Yenko logos on them. Yenko...straight up PA pride and a hill climber back in the day!!!!

[nearchoclatetown]

I wonder what they'd have to say about a '70 Formula Vee?

[Guest imported_Matt M, PA]

As far as conversion vans are concerned...it was tonque in cheek. These vehicles are modified...then sold through a dealer....very much like a Yenko, Grand Spaulding, etc.

nearchocolatetown...thanks for refreshing my memory on the Yenkos. I'm not a Chevy expert by any stretch.