Recession what recession

[Guest sintid58]

Well after 9 months working in Illinois I am back in South Dakota for good. The company I work for decided to park and try to sell 50 of the 100 trucks we were running because of slow freight. They are going to run the remaining trucks out of the West Chicago and the Sioux Falls office with existing personel and I am going to be back on weekends and holidays. Thank goodness I still have my job and same salary, minus some of the perks (company car, expense account, etc). Also I am thankful that I didn't sell my home and move the family. We are not alone feeling the pinch of slow freight, Werner Enterprises parked 800 trucks because of slow freight demand and high fuel prices.

I had a bad feeling when I went to Illinois and that is why we were not in a hurry to move. There are somethings I can't understand, one is why every economist in this country ignores the main problem which is high oil prices and what it is costing the American consumer. The other thing is the fact main stream media has almost totally ignored the fact that there is a major new oil discovery in North Dakota that is supposed to hold more oil than Saudi Arabia. Is this because these clowns are buying up oil futures making the price go up so they can make millions and they don't want it to end or what. Say what you will I know where my pocket book hurts the most and that is everywhere excpet my house payment. Gas is up, groceries are up , utillities are up, along with all comsumable items we buy to get on with our daily lives. This is not because of the housing crisis but because of higher fuel prices. The main reason people can't pay there mortgage is because it is either eat or pay the mortgage and most people will eat.

[Bhigdog]

The high price of energy is driving the price of everything up since it takes energy to produce almost anything. People like the low cost of goods produced in China but the hidden cost is the rise of energy costs driven by competition for that energy to produce those low cost goods. Meanwhile the leaders of this country are dithering about trying to to be politically correct. In effect fiddleing while Rome burns.

They kowtow to the far left environuts by refusing to use the untapped oil in the Arctic preserve and allow offshore drilling in huge swaths of the coast. Meanwhile pushing ethanol which results in little or no net energy savings but merely shifts the cost from oil to foodstuffs, and gives huge windfalls to agrabusiness entities. Or wind turbines which will never be a big enough factor. The energy savings that could be realized by expanded nuclear energy plants are being sacrificed on the alter of "Green".

So the next time you pay $100 to fill up your tank or $5000 to heat/cool your home take comfort that some caribou in the middle of nowhere, that will never be seen by 99.999% of anyone, is not being inconvienced by an oil rig.

Conservation and wise USE of our energy reserves is vitally important to our future well being. But so also is our need to wisely exploit our reserves and options to maximize our return........Bob

[Gary_N]

Bob, you have it correct.

Paid $4.41 per gallon for Diesel the other day. Looks like the truck is going to sit until I figure out how to make my own Biodiesel. My heat, hot water and cooking gas are propane. Filling up that 1,000 gallon tank is also a nightmare.

Wonder how much it costs to fill up a jet to fly around and protect some country that hates us??

Gary

[Bill Stoneberg]

Gas or Milk ??

Gas yesterday 3.32 @ gallon

Milk today 3.99 @ gallon

Still cheaper then Beer....

[Guest imported_Thriller]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bill Stoneberg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Still cheaper then Beer.... </div></div>

Time to protest beer prices...I'm sure Lamar is with me...anyone else

All kidding aside, it is an interesting conundrum we find ourselves in generally. I have seen more and more chatter lately about buying locally made products / food stuffs. It has always amazed me in the middle of summer that vegetables from California can be less expensive than locally grown vegetables, even when the cost of transportation is figured in. Of course, the grocery chains are always trying to get the lowest cost, so, similar to the products from southeast Asia, low labour costs really offset transportation costs.

I certainly don't have the answers. Happily the positions my wife and I are in are extremely unlikely to be affected. When I sit and think it through, I really am saddened by the ordinary folks sacrificed at the altar of corporate profits.

[Bhigdog]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">sacrificed at the altar of corporate profits. </div></div>

The vast majority of corporations are publicly owned through stocks and bonds. The profits the corporation makes are distributed, through dividends, to the "public". The corporation also provides jobs, generally the more profitable a corporation is the more they are able to support their workers. The public traded corporation is the absolute backbone of the best system for the betterment of man ever devised, free enterprise. Screw with it at your peril........Bob

[Matt Harwood]

With all due respect, gentlemen, the price of gas won't be affected by one cent if we drill in our own country for several reasons:

One, yes, it is the guys buying oil futures. When the price of a barrel of oil goes up, so does the price of gas. It doesn't matter where the oil comes from. That's why it's call oil FUTURES. They aren't setting today's price, they're setting tomorrow's price. It's just like the price at the local pump going up twenty cents, even though they're selling the same gas in the tank that they had that morning. The price you pay isn't what it cost them to buy it last week, it's what it will cost to buy it next week.

Second, demand is up. Supply vs. demand. We all know how that works. China and India are gobbling up all the natural resources they can get their hands on. If we start pulling oil out of the ground domestically, it'll still end up on the futures market being bought by the entire world. Prices won't change.

Third, the real reason your gas costs so much is not because of the price of oil or that there is less of it on the market (there is the roughly same amount there has always been, but China's taking a much bigger piece of pie), but because of the cost of making gasoline out of it. It isn't the wacko environmentalists preventing the oil companies from building more refineries. Consider this:

<span style="font-weight: bold">You're an oil company enjoying record profits because of this "artificial" shortage. Do you A) spend several billions of dollars building a new refinery that will drive the price of your product down, or save your money, do nothing and continue to earn record profits because of short supplies?</span>

That's a no-brainer, guys. Follow the money, not the politics. It isn't the environmentalists or the liberals or any politicians making it expensive, it's economics.

The reserves up in Alaska aren't our savior. We use 19,000,000 barrels of oil a day. A DAY! There's enough oil in Alaska to last about 280 days at that rate. Again, it isn't necessarily the environmentalists (do you really think they have more power in Washington than the oil companies, especially since the country is being run by oil company owners?!?), but because the investment:profit ratio is all out of whack. There isn't enough oil there to justify the investment it would take to get it. Now, when oil gets more expensive, it'll become more economically viable. Same with the tar sands in Canada and the fields in Siberia. Right now, it's much cheaper to just buy the stuff from the Arabs.

It's economics, not politics, that is driving this. The one upside to getting our own oil domestically is that money won't go overseas to people who hate us. But I'd rather buy their oil and use up their resources and conserve our own for when we REALLY need them, not when we're pinched by gas prices that are still half of what most of the world pays. Just wait until those guys run out of oil and need to buy water from us.

Finally, what do we really expect the politicans to do about it? The dopes in Washington can't regulate the world market for oil, they can't force companies to slash prices, they can't subsidize the gas in some guy's Hummer. What, exactly, do we expect them to do? I don't know about you, but I'd much rather have a free market rather than have it regulated by the same morons who manage Social Security or public education.

Call me a wacko environmentalist, but I'm not so interested in tearing up the landscape and screwing with wildlife just so I can save a few bucks when I fill my tank. Yeah, I know it hurts poor people disproportionately, but I'm confident that economics will drive changes in the way we live so that society won't collapse when gas hits $4/gallon. If you can afford a "hobby" car, the rising price of gas shouldn't threaten your lifestyle.

PS: McCain's idea of repealing the gas tax will save me just $6.30 when I fill up the 35-gallon tank in my truck. However, it will take more than $60 billion out of our economy. If you think times are tough now, wait until that hole shows up on the market.

It's summer! Go out and enjoy your cars and think of the price of gas as the price of admission to the amusement park. I only wish I could dump $1000 worth of fuel into the Buick this year driving it around. I'm dying without it!

Regards.

[Gary_N]

My continuing .02 Cents. Bob, as usual, you got it right! It's go nothing to do with greedy corporations. And Matt, you're correct, although I'm not sure getting "our" oil is going to tear up the landscape. Surely, we're more technically advanced than that, aren't we? But the real point is the more self reliant we are, the less $100,000 a fill up Bombers we have to send somewhere else under the guise that we're building Democracies, when in reality we're protecting the oil. High prices are here to stay, and they're going to get higher! So, go drive your Buick's now (and Chrysler's and Vette's, and whatever else is in the stable), 'cause it'll cost more next week.

Gary

PS. Found some interesting equipment to make your own Biodiesel. Since I love freedom fries, it might be kinda cool for "Hulk" (my Truck) to smell like McDonald's wherever he goes?!* I wonder what they do with the used fries oil anyway??

[Matt Harwood]

Good point, Gary. Think of what we could do here at home with the $5000/minute we're spending in Iraq...

[Bhigdog]

[/quoThat's why it's call oil FUTURES.te]

The futures market is driven by perceived supply. More supply will lower futures prices. It's true that China et.al. are increasing demand. With increased demand comes higher prices. That's why more supply will help in the short term. There is also a growing scool of thought that the crude run up is being driven by a speculative bubble. If true, nothing would poke a hole in that bubble faster than increased, non opec, supply. It's true the oil companies provide money to our polititions but they can't directly provide votes. But pandering to environmental sentimentality has so far provided votes. We'll see how far that goes when fuel reaches $5-6 a gallon.

To refuse to responsibly exploit the reserves in Alaska and off shore is just non sense. With proper oversight the overall environmental damage would be negligable.

Fossil derived energy will never be "cheap" again. The competition from second and third World countries will see to that.

And yes this Country will adjust to the higher prices, but at the cost of lower standards of living. Since it is a Global economy as others rise ours will be lowered.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The reserves up in Alaska aren't our savior. We use 19,000,000 barrels of oil a day. A DAY! There's enough oil in Alaska to last about 180 days at that rate. </div></div>

Do you want to know just how screwed up our prioities are? That figure (19,000,000 barrels a day) is from 2 years ago. Today we use 20,500,000 barrels a day.

Yup. The price goes up 50% and we buy <span style="text-decoration: underline">more</span>.

Pick whoever you want to to blame that one on.

[BUICK RACER]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gary_N</div><div class="ubbcode-body">PS. Found some interesting equipment to make your own Biodiesel. Since I love freedom fries, it might be kinda cool for "Hulk" (my Truck) to smell like McDonald's wherever he goes?!* I wonder what they do with the used fries oil anyway?? </div></div>

They sell or give it to folks like you that want their truck or VW to smell like fries! Check on it, you see I'm correct.

[serb]

Gary,

In your home town there is a guy that owns the Silo restaurant who is using french fry oil to run his car. Every once in a while he has a little blurb in the paper or on the news.

Stevo

[Gary_N]

It's all very depressing.

We need to dive into development of Nitrogen as our next fuel source and save the gasoline for Bob's cars, and Matt's cars, and my cars, and all the rest of us here!!

Gary

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The other thing is the fact main stream media has almost totally ignored the fact that there is a major new oil discovery in North Dakota that is supposed to hold more oil than Saudi Arabia. </div></div>

What you're talking about is the recent re-assessment of the Bakken Formation, which is partially located in North Dakota but mostly in south-central Canada. The vast majority of this formation is in dilute oil shales which require more energy to recover than is available in the shale.

I found this worldnetdaily.com "news" feature extolling the "great find" there. Even if you read this heavily biased and overblown feature (<span style="color: #990000">On the internet?--Nah!</span> ) and analyse the math <span style="text-decoration: underline">in it</span> you'll see that the added amount to "estimated" reserves of oil amounts to a whopping 206 day supply of oil for the U.S. (4.2 billion barrels). Of course that's only if you accept the comically stretchable term "recoverable" as they define it. <span style="text-decoration: underline">Proven</span> Saudi oil reserves (not hypothetically "estimated" as in this Bakken Formation calculation) are 62 times bigger.

And this is the overblown optimistic positive story on this oil formation?

There is no more oil. We've found it all. New oil finds over the last 50 years amount to less than 1 year's worth of oil demand, and fewer finds are being reported all the time despite the immense financial incentive to find more.

It's gone. Face it.

[BUICK RACER]

That's why the BIG 3 and the others are spending all their money on Hybrids, Fuel Cells and all the rest of the technology to get us to not rely on fossil fuels!

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...It isn't the wacko environmentalists preventing the oil companies from building more refineries. Consider this:

You're an oil company enjoying record profits because of this "artificial" shortage. Do you A) spend several billions of dollars building a new refinery that will drive the price of your product down, or save your money, do nothing and continue to earn record profits because of short supplies?</div></div>

Actually there's a far less insidious reason for the lack of refinery development in recent years. It's very simple really.

A refinery has to be amortized over 20-30 years in order to pay for itself. <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">NOBODY</span></span> thinks we'll be using as much oil in 20-30 years as we are now. The most accurate estimates put it at at least 90% delpetion by then even with tailing demand due to price and competitive pressures from alternatives.

When I bought my Prius in 2005, it was in part because I read many different estimates of fuel price futures that all independently agreed. Gasoline would soon be $3.00/gal (it was then barely $2), and would be <span style="text-decoration: underline">over</span> $5.00/gal before the decade was out.

We're right on schedule.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BUICK RACER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's why the BIG 3 and the others are spending all their money on Hybrids, Fuel Cells and all the rest of the technology to get us to not rely on fossil fuels! </div></div>

My point exactly!

[Guest imported_Thriller]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Thriller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When I sit and think it through, I really am saddened by the ordinary folks sacrificed at the altar of corporate profits.

</div></div>

Rather than get all excited about how economies work, my comment was directed at those who wind up being downsized and facing financial hardship through no fault of their own, simply by being in the wrong position at the time.

If there is no disposable income in the hands of the populace, that too will wreak havoc on the economy overall.

[Guest Dan Cook]

Well, with any luck, when all the oil is used up under the arab countries a giant vacuum will form in the cavern that is left and the whole region will be sucked into a black hole.

[Dave@Moon]

A few more quibbles:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Or wind turbines which will never be a big enough factor. </div></div>

American wind turbines <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="text-decoration: underline">currently</span></span> generate enough electricity to power 1.5 million homes, and 30% of all new electrical generating capacity constructed in 2007 was from wind turbines. Can you imagine what it'll be like when the coal and oil industries don't own the White House? ( U.S. Wind Power Generation Grows by 45 Percent in 2007 )

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The energy savings that could be realized by expanded nuclear energy plants are being sacrificed on the alter of "Green".</div></div>

Yes, they are. However the "green" you refer to isn't the correct green. Think more in terms of green ink. The storage of exponentially increasing amounts of nuclear waste (<span style="font-style: italic">There is no "disposal" of something that stays deadly for periods longer than mountains exist.</span>) is pricing nuclear out of the market. Has been for decades, however some places (i.e. France) have governmental structures that allow for those costs to be ignorred.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Meanwhile pushing ethanol which results in little or no net energy savings but merely shifts the cost from oil to foodstuffs, and gives huge windfalls to agrabusiness entities. </div></div>

While the agrabusiness aspects of ethanol are obvious (ADM or Exxon, pick your poisen!), the idea that ethanol production is a waste of energy is simply false*. Even more than 10 years ago the best estimates of energy efficiency for ethanol was a 24% gain ( Estimating the Net Energy Balance of Corn Ethanol--1995 USDA ), and current best estimates peg the gain at 34% using more modern methods. However it's the future of ethanol, especially cellulosic ethanol made from switchgrass and other non-food crops (here--other plants will be used in other climes of course), that have the greatest potential.

*These falsehoods can largely be traced to two professors: Cornell University Prof. David Pimentel who's training is in entomolgy (insects) and Prof. Tad Patzek (originally from Poland) of Berkeley who's training is in Civil and Chemical Engineering (mainly the design of reserviors and fluid dynamics). Both moonlight for the oil industry. It's been the bane of the <span style="font-style: italic">Fox News</span>ing of America that people with only peripheral or tenuous authority are given influential platforms in order to shift public opinion for profit. These people, like the so-called climate change doubters--another incredibly small minority in academia, are brought in under the insidious notion that every issue has two sides and therefore both <span style="font-style: italic">must</span> be heard. Some people doubt that the earth is round, or that the Holocaust occured as well.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They kowtow to the far left environuts by refusing to use the untapped oil in the Arctic preserve and allow offshore drilling in huge swaths of the coast. </div></div>

Matt nailed this one pretty good already.

=======================

The bottom line is that fuel prices are only calling attention to the bigger problem: <span style="font-weight: bold">we use too much</span>. It's hurting us, our planet, our economy, and our country. Even modest conservation efforts on most people's parts will lower energy consumption by half if people are willing to try. There are any number of places you can find information on how.

[Bhigdog]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">30% of all new electrical generating capacity constructed in 2007 was from wind turbines </div></div>

30% of how much? There were damn few new power plants built last year.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is no "disposal" of something that stays deadly for periods longer than mountains exist </div></div>

Have you ever flown over or visited Nevada? Who cares if a mountain there is stuffed with waste. There is NOTHING there. It is a useless wasteland. Waste storage is actually the BEST use of the land. Why not use use a tiny portion of it for the betterment of the people?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">current best estimates peg the gain at 34% using more modern methods </div></div>

Yeah well, you listen your "experts" and I'll listen to mine. Figures don't lie but liars can figure.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Matt nailed this one pretty good already.

</div></div>

Saying we shouldn't tap the Artic preserve oil because there isn't enough there is like saying you should'nt give a starving person a ham sandwich because he would rather have a steak dinner.

Bottom line is we will be stuck with an energy shortfall for the foreseeable future. The only logical course is to conserve while using all rational alternate sourses. There is no magic bullet. Wind turbines can provide energy but they are unreliable, ugly, noisy, kill birds, and tear up large swaths of prime mountain top habitat. I know, they are here almost in my back yard. We HATE them. Nuclear has it's problems but they pale compared to the benifits provided. Alcohol, so far, is more a political feel good measure with tons of minuses. Solar is just inadequate. Hydroelectric is probably the MOST environmentally unfriendly source of energy.

I do my part by busting my ass every year to cut and split fire wood, turning out the lights, and using ceiling fans instead of A/C. Do I care if a caribou

is insulted by the sight of an oil rig in some mosquito infested muskeg wilderness. Sure, but only till it means my family will have to do without or be cold...........Bob

[Ron Green]

I too think they should suck Alaska dry and if it is all consumed by the USA it probably won't last a year at our current oil intake. Make a condition that they remove the equipment and repair the land. That would certain end a lot of arguments on this topic.

Since it is the last of our huge oil reserves maybe they would want to keep it for military use, just in case we have issues with those middle eastern countries shutting us off when we may need it the most.

[Guest Taco]

Just for knowing:

1 gallon is 3,78 Liter.

In the Netherlands 1 Liter Diesel costs 1,20 euro = $2

1 gallon diesel will cost us $7.56 in the Netherlands.

Other example: gasoline:

price of gasoline = 1,55 euro = $2.60

So, 1 gallon will do $9.76 in the Netherlands.

Taco.

[Bhigdog]

Yes Taco your fuel costs are astronomical. My understanding is that most of the cost is due to taxation, along with very high sales, VAT and other taxes. With your country's social system the taxes are very high to provide social services that are not provided for here. Some think your system is better others think our system is more fair (better).........Bob

[Matt Harwood]

Like I said, right now it's <span style="font-style: italic">much</span> cheaper to buy it from the Arabs than it is to go to Alaska to get it. That <span style="font-style: italic">will</span> change as prices go up in the future. We all know that oil companies won't do anything that isn't financially viable. And why suck it all up now when there's still plenty elsewhere? Alaska won't change prices we pay at the pump (a lot of it will go to China anyway--most oil is sold on a global market). You may even see prices go up because of the cash investment needed to go get the oil--do you think oil company shareholders will take kindly to slashes in their dividends to finance the project? It might cost more to get the oil than they can sell it for at today's prices.

Listen, if we really want to royally screw the Arabs, let's use up all their oil and make them buy it from us when it's gone. Their clock is running out along with their oil. Once that last well goes dry, they can go back to living in the desert and sqabbling amongst themselves. And they'll still have to buy all their food from somewhere else, too (good luck growing corn in the desert, guys). We make an awful lot of food...

A lot of people think Alaska is the magic bullet and will cure our dependence on foreign oil forever. It won't. Even if there's FOUR TIMES as much oil up there as Exxon/Mobil thinks there is, it's only two year's worth at our current rate of consumption. And as I said, we won't get to keep it all--China will buy a great deal of it.

We are just going to have to get used to expensive energy and adapt. We're Americans, for Pete's sake! We built this country up from when it was all forests and swamps and desert. We can surely keep our way of life going despite expensive gas. Yeah, it sucks to pump $120 worth of gas into my truck, I feel the pain more than many of you (I spent $4000 on fuel last year as a contractor--<span style="font-style: italic">about 15% of my income!</span>). But it's reality and all the wishing won't change the fact that it will cost what it costs. No politician or policy or protest can change it. Adapt or don't, it's up to us to be smarter than we have been with our consumption. As Bob rightly said (by the way, your rotisserie looks awesome! ), there is no magic bullet. But a lot of little magic bullets can make a big difference.

Consider this: what if we use all up all our native resources today when we don't need it, and then the Arabs cut us off (they don't need us--China and India and the rest of the world will gladly buy all they can pump)? What then? Oops. Welcome back to the stone age, America.

With all due respect, going to Alaska now makes no sense today, not political nor financial nor environmental. Someday it will. But that day isn't today.

[Bhigdog]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> That would certain end a lot of arguments on this topic. </div></div>

No it won't, Ron. Clean up, remediation, and reclaimation has been required for any mineral extraction in this country for years. That it would be required is a given.

That has not silenced, or swayed, a small but very vocal group of eviromental zealots who beleive almost any use of natural resourses constitutes some kind of "rape" of the planet.

The same arguments being made now were the same arguments made against the Trans-Alaskan pipeline. It turns out the caribou, who were going to be decimated, never even blinked and in fact have thrived.

Now they are trying to have the Polar bear declared "endangered", when nothing could be further from the truth, so they could use that classification as a legal hammer to cripple pretty much any developement in the far North. The fact that many elderly and less fortunate people are being forced to shiver in cold houses or struggle to pay utility bills matters not a whit to them. Save a bear, screw an old lady.........Bob

[Reatta Man]

Hey, I have no problem with using french frie oil in a diesel. I just don't want prices to get so out of whack that it is cheaper to make french fries out of 10W 30.

Yum!

[Bhigdog]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> With all due respect, going to Alaska now makes no sense today, not political nor financial nor environmental. Someday it will. But that day isn't today. </div></div>

What you say makes sense. But in the meanwhile lets get over the exploration/regulatory hurdles and environmental hysteria. Who knows, the very prospect of drilling in Alaska may dampen the futures frenzy.

BTW, I really like the idea of an "OFPEC" (Organization of Food Producing Countries) when the wells run dry......Bob

[Reatta Man]

BTW, the arguements about the Arabs and the price of oil is really not relevant.

Do you know who we import most of our oil from? (Scroll down)

The top five exporting countries accounted for 70 percent of United States crude oil imports:

1. Canada (Non-OPEC nation)

2. Saudia Arabia

3. Mexico (Non-OPEC nation)

4. Nigeria

5. Venezuela

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petro...ent/import.html

[Bhigdog]

But the Canadians are sooooo much nicer it's really hard to hate them. Of course Venezuela is no problem to despise. Mexicans have always been nice too. Of course there was that Alamo thing awhile back, but what the Hell. Nigeria? I don't want to say anything bad about Nigeria. There is a secret bank account there and all I have to do is send them my bank account numbers and it will be mine.......Bob

[Bhigdog]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> by the way, your rotisserie looks awesome! </div></div>

It works awesome too. I can roll that Chrysler right over 360 degrees. I actually was going to motorize it to roll the car, but I came to my senses. It really has been a boon to my old knees and back. Great design, Matt. Thanks again........Bob

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> 30% of how much?</div></div>

17,552 megawatts of new generating capacity. ( Energy Information Administration, US-DOE, Oct. 22, 2007 )

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Have you ever flown over or visited Nevada? Who cares if a mountain there is stuffed with waste. There is NOTHING there. It is a useless wasteland. Waste storage is actually the BEST use of the land. Why not use use a tiny portion of it for the betterment of the people?</div></div>

Winds blow. Rains fall. Stuff happens.

(BTW, the Nevada Commission on Tourism thanks you! )

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Saying we shouldn't tap the Artic preserve oil because there isn't enough there is like saying you should'nt give a starving person a ham sandwich because he would rather have a steak dinner. </div></div>

No. It's more like buying a thirsty person who you know is alcoholic a shot of Jack, meanwhile the two of you are accross the street Al Kada's Party Store and Tobacco Outlet where he's already run up a tab he can't pay.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Figures don't lie but liars can figure.</div></div>

Yes, but one person (or in this partticular case 2 people) telling comfortable lies will outweigh thousands telling inconvenient truths. The last 10 years have proven that in spades. He!!, <span style="font-style: italic">Fox News</span> has built an entire network around it.

===================

It's all a matter of putting it together for yourself, not letting someone on TV, in the newspaper, at a web blog, or in your favorite political party do it for you according to their own agenda.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Now they are trying to have the Polar bear declared "endangered", when nothing could be further from the truth, so they could use that classification as a legal hammer to cripple pretty much any developement in the far North. </div></div>

Most Polar Bears Gone By 2050, Studies Say

There are absurdly alarmist arguments being made on both sides of the polar bear's fate right now. This analysis seems to be more moderate than most. It all really depends on how long the sea ice lasts. when it's gone, they're gone. At the rate it's going right now the collapse of polar bear populations will be much faster than this analysis states, but hopefully we can slow that rate enough so that they can adapt.

Whatever the case, the age of free ice roaming populations is certainly coming to a close in the relatively near future.

[HarryJ]

Folks, I remember when I started college back in 1970. My fraternity subscribed to all kinds of publications including the Harvard Business Review. An article in this publication quoted some interesting statistics which stuck with me. It seems at that time America had somewhere arround 18/20% of the worlds population yet consumed 75% of the world's natural resources. We set the price then as the competion for the resources was somewhat weak. Today as Matt points out, other nations vie for these resources; not only oil, but copper, iron, tin, magnesium, etc. All of these comodities are going rapidly up in price as the nations compete for a basically fixed supply.To further complicate the math the dollar is losing value on the open market every day. Countries of the oil producing world and China are awash in dollars making them worth less and less. Folks,unless we get off our collective a... and get our production base back we will lose. There is talk in the commodities market of basing the price of oil on the Euro. If this happens; you'll wish for $4/ gallon gas. Don't blame it on the tree huggers, liberals, capitalists,or whoever. Fix the problem not the blame. Wealth is built on creating it through manufacturing not flipping futures, real estate, or whatever. I tell people Henry Ford, Walter P. Chrysler, Andrew Carnegie, Charlie Nash and titans of industry didn't go crying to our government saying; the Europeans have the automobile, the Europeans have the steel mills; they built bigger and better. Face it folks, oil is a limited resource that is rapidly being used up and under great demand pressures. We are in a recession and may be headed for much worse....America no longer dominates the world markets as it did for so many years. Now is the time to compete again

[Reatta Man]

HarryJ,

You are trying to make sense (and doing a good job of it) but that will get you in trouble with sooooo many people on here that like to be in the blame-placing business.

It is almost as if fixing blame has gotten to be part of our Gross National Product. Watched any of the political ads lately? "He messed it up, but trust me (vote for me) and my big gov plans to save you!"

Life is good on Fantasy Farm!

[Bhigdog]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Most Polar Bears Gone By 2050, Studies Say

</div></div>

Yup, And 20 some years ago Time magazine ran a cover showing New York City Covered in ice and the current "scientific consensus" was we were on the cusp of a new "ice age". There were actually plans floated to spread black carbon dust on the polar caps to melt them because the sea levels would soon be dropping. Run, run, run for your lives.......the sky is falling. Maybe Al Gore can save us. HAW HAW HAW.

The climate cycles up, and the climate cycles down. 1000 years ago Greenland was just that. 500 years ago there was the Little Ice Age. Then it got warm again. There were Polar bears then. There are Polar bears now. And so it goes........Bob

[Guest John Chapman]

$5/Gallon Gas and the (Nonexistent) Silver Bullet…

The current and rising price of motor fuel in the US is the best thing that can happen to us. Heresy, say you? It’s going to bankrupt me, you say? It’s going to be painful over the next ten years as we adjust to the real world… a world with Indian and Chinese economies competing for resources. High prices are a blessing in disguise because they will force us to change (read that IMPROVE) the way we do things. One primary way is to reduce petroleum consumption. We’ll not likely remove it from use in the foreseeable future, but we are certainly facing significant reductions.

Prediction 1: The immediate (next 10-20 year) interim fix will be plug-in hybrids for most personal transportation requirements… Why?

-- It’s a logical extension of proven and affordable technology (Toyota synergy drive)

-- It will satisfy a major portion of the average ‘Daily Trip’ mileage for personal vehicles (about 42 miles/day) without using motor fuel. The only limiting factor right now is lithium-ion battery technology for heat generation and cycle durability, and that’s getting better every day)

-- The consumer will have to accept the cost of end point service installation as a part of doing business. Can’t rant for less/smaller government on one hand and ask for handouts on the other.

-- Use of motor fuel still enables significant flexibility to make extended trips and periods where recharge is not available

-- Uses existing infrastructure (power grid) in an economical manner (bulk of recharge would be during off-peak night hours

-- Transfers emissions generation to a relatively few locations as opposed to each vehicle

-- Can use evolving technology coal power generation (we’ve got lots of coal…) and the coal power emissions problems can be solved. Not cheaply, but they can be solved, perhaps with a plug in vehicle surcharge (hey, you’ve dropped the energy cost per mile by a factor of five or so… you can afford to give some back…)

-- Reduced motor fuel demand will help check prices for commerce transportation.

Prediction 2: High density population areas currently without effective mass transit (like Southern California) will be forced to build that infrastructure to remain economically competitive in the long term.

Prediction 3: The continued fuel of choice for long distance, high speed, non-stop travel will continue to be petroleum based, because:

-- Installed infrastructure

-- Pound for pound, there has yet to be a more affordable, portable, useable, or energy efficient fuel developed

Prediction 4: Exotic solutions like fuel cells and hydrogen power for personal vehicles will not be a reality in our lifetimes, if ever, because:

-- The cost of fuel cell technology is just too high

-- The reality of handling hydrogen fuel in day-to-day use is very difficult due primarily to the cryogenic requirements and the molecular size of hydrogen. It just leaks too readily unless exceptional care is used in manufacturing, machining, assembling, and maintaining hydrogen systems (read: <span style="text-decoration: underline">EXPENSIVE</span>)

Prediction 5: Let them haggle over Euros. The reality is that Western Europe as we know it is not economically viable and is likely on its last two decades. Germany, France, Italy, and the Netherlands have imported huge numbers of foreign workers just to keep the system going. Guess where the workers are coming from…? And, guess what non-assimilating religion they represent? They don’t give a flip for the Western European way. They’re also reproducing at a rate of four times that of the host population.

Prediction 6: Our insane obsession with bottled water will end. Anyone care to guess how much petroleum goes to ship water, provide energy for purification, and make all those billions of PET bottles? [censored] <span style="color: #3366FF">(Author's Note: Censored word was a coarser version of 'complain' frequently used in reference to a female canine of reproductive age)</span> about $4/gallon fuel and buy $12/gallon tap water by the case that has a huge waste stream and big carbon footprint. Algore is proud!

Prediction 7a and 7b: We won’t be shipping water to the Arabs. We’re going to be struggling to have enough of our own. We’re also going to end this folly of growing food crops, or any other crops, to make ethanol. We’re also going to see the true cost of feeding ourselves rise to the real world cost. It will hurt our wallets, but you’ll lose enough weight that you won’t mind. If you think this is a joke, review recent news stories on the rice and wheat prices and shortages…

Prediction 8: We’re going to do fine. There will be painful displacements while everything sorts out, but there always have been. Ask a coach whip or button hook maker. As a group, we’re very flexible and resourceful.

Statement 1: The US will continue to dominate the world economically, politically, and militarily. This will continue to annoy everybody else. Until they need us.

Statement 2: Land is the source of all wealth, not manufacturing. Without the ability to control production from the land, organized manufacturing can not take place.

Cheers,

JMC

[Matt Harwood]

THAT was a most excellent post, John. +1 for you.

[HarryJ]

Let me just remind everyone we are discussing this on the Buick forum??.....