Max BURKE

G,day Huppers. When touring in the 20 after standing overnight the engine would be stuck and needed to break free by jumping on the crank handle. Having run low in water to the point of blowing dry steam I decided to take off the cylinders to look for cracks Well there were no cracks and even with the cylinders removed the crankshaft would not turn .By now you guessed the magneto varnish is Kaput the heat of the days tour makes it tacky and the night air locks it solid. I replaced the mag with a low tension mag built from a du4 and using an external coil which can use Batt curent to start. All works well . Now to the boiling. Mod 20 owners know that they are prone to boil in hilly country which is a pest. They will cool down on the other side if there is any water left to cool. The electric fan that we fitted some time ago does stirling work in traffic but helps little out on the open road. Fitting a 12 volt electric water pump has eliminated the heat problem and with the pump turned off there is still enough thermo syphen to run about 15 Klm before the mercury reaches the top of the circle of the motometer. Turning on the pump and in about one Klm the mercury has retreated out of sight. Pump and fan together draw 9.9 amps so a mini altenator from a kabota garden tractor with 14 amps capacity and driven from a pully fixed over the cranking dog nut keeps the battery up Now with the pump running full time the engine runs too cool and a variable resistance may be the answer the better to regulate the temp... Our Aust. NewZealand Hup tour was a success with 22 Hupmobiles on the road each day Max BURKE Nulkaba 2325 Australia

G,Day Huppers. David I believe only the early 20 models had the composite fiber with the brass side plates. By the middle of 1911 the gears were one piece phospher Bronze. Both of our 20s have this type gear and although we are running minimal backlash both gears are noisy Max BURKE Nulkaba 2325 Australia

G,day Huppers. The front main bearing used a labrinth a groove at the flywheel end of the bearing which led to a channel between the bearing and its housing. Oil was supposed to drain into this channel and run out the other end back into the crankcase We took the bearing mount off the crankcase and machined the crank handle support round and true then fixed an extension to the fly wheel to run a seal here. works ok. Any crankcase pressure pushed oil out of the original system. We have a lip seal in the magneto gear cover which bolts to the cam box. This seal is running on the outside of the boss of the mag gear and must be assembled before mounting the magneto. Max BURKE Nulkaba 2325 Australia

G,day Huppers. The car in the pictures is a 1917 and not a 1916. Easily vissable is the 17 teen oil header resoviour. The timing case housing and the gearbox case will be malleable iron and not alluminium, The casting date will be on the crankcase under the manifold. The clutch cover has no coil mounting bracket as 16 had. The wheel hubs are different to 16 I cant read the eng. number but it is on the crankcase extension above where the generator mounts. A rough check is to insert a finger between the engine number and the chassis rail one finger is 16 two fingers 17. This should be an improvement on 16 as the clutch is lighter and the gearbox improved. Max BURKE Nulkaba 2325 Australia

G,DAY huppers. The picture of the engine has me mystified. The crankcase and the cam box in particular. Any more pictures? Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia

G,day Huppers . With the Breeze the throttle butterfly does not close against the body of the carb.It can go right round you have to set it with the stop screw which is on the manifold so that the butterfly is opening the instant the lever is advanced. If it is on the wrong side it will close.. I cant see a stop screw fitted on this job. The air valve spring needs to be as weak as will keep the valve totally closed when cranking but as soon as the throttle is advanced it must start to open. For starters, take out the hot air plug and leave it out for now. Start the water drip and shove the hose of the nearest headlight up the hole uncovered by this plug If all else fails put your oxy torch up this hole and have someone crank while you open the acetylene valve a little. The engine should instantly start. If no acetylene then get a spray can of brake clean and try that. Don't breathe the exhaust fumes! Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia

G'day Huppers. I wonder what the numbers are? Our touring is car no 9499 said to be June 1911. As sold it did not have front enclosure but we restored it to have the later weather kit as we have used it touring in some ordinary weather. Engine no is 9630.Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia.

G day to all. Yes ,that is about the price that a like example would change hands for in Australia. A shame we don't have the car number for this one but I would guess because of the enclosure kit it comes about May/ June of 1911 on. From that time the cars sold in Australia had steel radiator shells of which the shell was not a part of the unit that came in contact with the water as the brass ones did These later type ,with the deeper valance held on with three dome nuts are more simple to make. What a shame Hupp did not fit a radiator of this size, Might of helped with the boiling, the extra row of tubes didn't help much. Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia

G day Huppers. I'm with you David in as much as I believe shock absorbers were not fitted at all to the Hupp 20 with the short chassis but seem to have been universal on all of the long chassis jobs which are exactly 24 inches longer and have an extra cross member amidships . Check your own examples David and it will be apparent that they are not friction disc rather the friction is applied to the outer circumference of an oval centre piece mounted to the chassis. at rest there is no dampening but with more movement the dampening increases due to the oval centre. Although I have seen some long chassis with out the units fitted the holes have been there in the chassis. You mention strap type "rebounders". Were they used on anything before the twenties? I have the same edition of the parts book which has been tidied up by dropping from the list early parts like the cone clutch used in model "A" and common to Little and Whiting as an exact exchange. Further the bolt on fan for the D touring which fits into the front of the front cylinder block is omitted from the parts book as are many other earlier parts, only the improved spec is listed Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia

G,day Huppers. The brand name of the shockabsorber used on the long chassis Hup 20 is " FOSTER SHOCK ABSORBER" Made by GABRIEL HORN Mfg Co. Cleveland Ohio. This can be found stamped on the link connecting the arms of the device and the mounting plate fixed under the U bolts atop of the spring. Max BURKE Nulkaba 2325 Australia

G,day Huppers. David I would go so far as to say that all of the long chassis Hup 20 had the front shock absorbers be they touring, long chassis roadsters, coupes or the vans and utilities. Further they were bought in from the supplier and were used by other makes probably in different sizes. Sorry, I cant recall the make but they are brand stamped. Some years Harrahs were wanting some via a HCCA wanted add with a picture. These units are a splendid design as on small bumps the retard action is minimal increasing with the travel of deeper ruts, better than the Hartford type which are at the maximum damping before the disc slips and with the more movement the less do they work. The fittings to the Hup 20s do work, proof in that the mounting bolts need tensioning from time to time. Ours were lined with leather but now have woven brake lining. I agree the pictured Hup looks Grand and I'm told there is at least another in New Zealand. With the 20s tendency to boil on warm days I would think the coupes got used more in winter .Max BURKE Nulkaba 2325 Australia.

G,day Karl .Measure up Bedford 214 cubic in pistons. We used them in both of our Buick fours they are 3 3/8 standard and run to oversizes. Another chance might be Chev six. If you cant find the dimensions of the Bedford I can measure one for you ,just don't have the book in front of me .Google JP pistons They will produce what you want at a price, usually with rings and pins. Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia

G,day Huppers. Friend Wilson picked up a Hupp name plate at a swap meet It is for a Hupp model S The number is S 19428 Is it from your vehicle? With it was the large patent numbers plate. They can be bought by reimbursing him the $ A 30 that he paid for them and postage. Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia

G,day Huppers. Yesterday evening a friend who has a Hup 20 called me to relate a sad tale. Whilst on a short journey on his Hup he had to stop at a rail crossing . Upon proceeding away again he found that he could not. He had to have the Hup loaded onto a tilt bed truck and taken home. Later in the shop after removing the gearbox he found that the needle roller bearing which he had used to eliminate the thrust washer pack was responsible. That marvelous device had worn a groove right into the spigot of the clutch causing a weak spot and this is where the spigot and the clutch parted company .That,s right , snapped right off.Lucky ,he has a usable replacement and was wondering about having it hardened to avoid the same thing happening again. I suggested talking to his bearing stockist for advice as they may have a hardened sleeve to use rather than having a coating of some hard spray on substance applied for when the next needle roller bearing does the same trick. I have seen a clutch which has grooves worn here and another which has broken through the wear grove and been welded up and put back into service.Neither had a needle race . We used neither of them. When attending to your clutch be sure to check this area. Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia.

G,day to all Huppers. The alignment marks will be seen on the end of the crankshaft and on the forward end of the clutch drum. They are in the form of heavy centre punch marks and are there because the rear main bearing which is the outer surface of the clutch spigot only runs true when assembled in the position that it was originally ground. On some engines the clutch will not slide onto the crankshaft unless the dots are lined up . In other words the alignment of the crankshaft is dependant on the alignment of the clutch. Clutch slip for a few yards upon changing gear is standard and the heavier oil in the gearbox the further the clutch will slip. Never use red fibre in the centre of the three unit thrust washer pack, use the material that fibre timing gears are cut from. We use a centre washer of stainless steel between two of PB1 and we fix the one on the engine with 3/16 screws to prevent it spinning . Old age and long use sometimes lets these washers wear into the clutch spigot Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia

By jove your right Karl I hadn't noted the obvious. There are no locating screws in the tappet towers either so I wonder what kept them tracking on the cams . Perhaps the cam profile is not concave on the tangents so as not to need them and they may have had flat feet in any case they are not there. I wonder what happened to the rest of the motor . Here,s hoping some learned person can tell us what it is Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia

G,day Huppers Go to Ebay 141682394317 and although ended with no bids you will see a cam plate said to be Hup 1912 era. The camshaft is still in place in its poured in place bearings but note the high tappet towers and the bridge between nos 2/3 and 6/7 tower. Look at the mounting boss at no 1 cam, perhaps for an oil pump fitting. I think not a Little as the shaft there is easy removable but could it be a Whiting which have, by the parts book, many parts common to Hup 20. The Nichalauds company did advertise replacement engine gearbox units for the Hup 20 Is this from one of these, but as they had many improvements over the Hup engine I think it is not from one of these. Anyone know what it was from ?. It is in Graettinger Iowa. Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia.

G,day Huppers. May I suggest that the Hup pictured is neither a 16 nor a 17 model N but rather a 1915 Model K. Model N fitted the battery under the front seat on the right hand side in a newly designed box that protruded down thru the floor. On this picture the box is on the running board. The body style appears to be an all weather touring but as I can bring up only one picture I am unable to see the windscreen posts which are bolted to the sides on a K rather than fitted through the top of the cowl as in the N Also the K have no front splash apron below the radiator. Other than many mechanical changes the K is so much like the N but very different to the 32 that it supercedes. I know of one surviver in Australia under restoration and another in New Zealand ,a rare Hupmobile only manufactured for part of 1915 and perhaps a few at the end of 1914. Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia

G,day Huppers. Ken the Hup service bulitans were reproduced in the USA Hup Herald over the last perhaps twenty years. Although I don't subscribe to it a friend with a 20 and a 38 E does and he copied the sheets that related to to the model N and 32 which we have had for many years. There are several inserts relating to the mod 20 among these sheets. Perhaps if you contact the editor they might be able to print off for you the sheets from back issues. How many relate to the 20 I don't know as we only got those as before mentioned. on the other hand someone with a Herald collection may help you. Some readers seem confused when I say we run on 3/8 inch advance. this is our distance that the piston is down the cylinder as it comes up on compression and not the dimension in inches on the fly wheel surface which we mark off from the 3/8 of the piston stroke. We do not run fixed spark on any of our cars but if any drivers wish to do so that's ok by me, as an apprentice we were taught fixed spark for engines with constant revs only. It pays to check the existing marks before doing anything . The flywheel may not be from that engine. Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia

G,day Huppers. The adjusting bolts are to determine the in and out position of the reverse gear. Adjust the in position so that the link inside the box is over centre so its harder for the gear to kick it out when reversing and you lift your foot, otherwise you have to hold reverse with your leg. Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia

G,day Huppers. Seems to me that the Hup instructors delighted in confusion. The service bulletin No 3 for July 1916 dealing with valve timing and spark on the model 20 instructs "Position of crank and piston at moment of firing with spark FULLY RETARDED is 13 deg. past TDC or 1 and 31/32 on the flywheel". Had they forgotten they had given the magneto fixed spark. If you set your fixed sparker to this setting you could kick your hat faster than your Hup Max Burke Nulkaba2325 Australia

G,day Huppers. Im surprised the magneto will spark on a three eight air gap. We run ours on twenty five thou. Never trust the timing mark on the flywheel without setting it yourself. We take out the valve bungs and with a torch find the top of the piston travel. Verify the flywheel mark ,then with a bicycle spoke bent on the end to 3/8 more turn the engine backwards until this dimension is achieved. Clamp up the gear to this with the points just breaking and you have 3/8 advance. On magnetos with a variable cam ring on full retard this will give a firing point of TDC and a slow idle.Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia

G,day Huppers Yes David, apart from the centre the gears are the same , If a crankshaft gear is available a new centre can be fitted to mount it on the magneto shaft. This would be only to save cutting the teeth. If a new Mag gear is to be made be sure to make the dia of the boss to take your new seal. Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia

G,day Huppers Buying a DU4. Just check the rotation as a Hup 20 is reverse to the more common varieties. They can of course be reversed by changing the points block or in dire straits by filing off the brass key so that the points open as the armature pole shoe is leaving the magnet shoe by 020 thou . Illustrated in the handbook . Don't forget the distributer turns opposite to the armature so the firing order on the cap is opposite to what you might think. The magneto gear is the same configuration as the crankshaft gear except for the centre. We once had a mag gear made up by putting a new centre into a crank gear.The only mag gears that I have seen are steel sometimes case hardened perhaps because the earlier cam gears are fibre or later bronze . Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia